Death Penalty

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why do you want to avoid the entire point of the discussion which is actually homicide? Don't pretend that is not what we are talking about: homicide.

Doesn't matter if it is a state-sanctioned execution or a legal murder. It's still homicide. You want to justify homicide. Stop pretending I'm using argumentum ad passiones. That's literally the entire point of this damn discussion. Good God, man.

You: "How dare you point out the entire point of the discussion!"

😬

Also, I just read what you glossed over. You glossed over the fact that I demonstrated your shitty attempt at washing away your barbaric stance on government sanctioned homicide. It's barbaric. Don't dance around it.

You refuse to call it revenge because it doesn't fit your homicidal narrative. If you have to admit that you're using justice as a euphemism for revenge, then your argument falls apart. You actually said, "families deserve justice." ...that's revenge.

Revenge - to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, especially in a resentful or vindictive spirit.

When you actually lie about things you've posted, there's no hope for a discussion. Don't lie about stuff you posted. 🙂

This question, restated, literally reads, "How are we going to reduce crime by rehabilitating criminals from committing more crimes?" And a far simpler way to word that question, "How are we going to reduce crime by reducing crime?"

To make the absurdity of that statement make more sense...

How are we going to eat apples by eating apples? The answer is in the question...by eating the apples. Reduce crime by reducing repeat offense.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/rprts05p0510pr.cfm

Translation: you don't like that you're wrong so you pretend that I'm pretending to be an enlightened, self-righteous, criminologist. Instead, just admit that you have some barbaric ideas on how we should address crime. Catch up to the year 2015. Do a tad bit of research. Don't throw a tantrum by shitting all over your keyboard and a message board.

Also, look at this gem:

lol, pack it up, boys: time to go home. First degree murder is not a crime. WEEE

Okay...we'll see if anyone argued about the deterrent stuff in just a bit. I can't wait...

Your point here is a red herring and irrelevant. You can't just hand waive a criminal justice system that is using modern science, techniques, and results that clearly is far superior to the US' criminal justice system.

Me: "Try this socket wrench. It is the right size."

You: "So what! That socket wrench is shiny! Socket wrenches should be purple!"

Me: "lol, wut?"

Since you don't know what it is, this is an example of a strawman because that's not what my argument is like, at all. In this example, you'd have to say, "We should implement gun control and gun culture like Switzerland or Israel."

Don't pretend my points are yours. I've always made the point that crime is a most certainly a poverty (and in one thread, also a population density issue) issue in multiple threads over many years. That's not your point: it's mine. You're parroting me if there's any parroting going on in this thread. 👆

Edit - here's a recent example of me mentioning the poverty and crime connection:

Fictional premise and conclusion, huh?

Let's be clear that I stated the following:

"When we have actual research that shows there are better ways to prevent crime than killing each other like a 3735 year old law of conduct suggests, we should probably try that...I mean...riiiight?"

There's nothing fictional about any of it. Perhaps you were just posting words that you thought it sounded well? That makes sense. Couldn't think of a comeback so you thought of just posting what you thought was a good comeback (but had nothing of actual substance).

Wow.... Having been pmed about psmiths profile and reading his arguments reposted here, I realise it's all just a bit more important to him than a forum should be..... Scary stuff, and with that I think I shall bid this forum adieu. I just realised who is on it. :-( Weird.

Originally posted by Knife
Wow.... Having been pmed about psmiths profile and reading his arguments reposted here, I realise it's all just a bit more important to him than a forum should be..... Scary stuff, and with that I think I shall bid this forum adieu. I just realised who is on it. :-( Weird.

Oh that's special. Trying to convince us someone actually pmed you about my profile and my "reposted" arguments that were actually made for the first time here? You definitely go to great lengths to make your lies not seem insane but when you have nothing else to offer this forum, I can see why you need the attention. I'm sure we'll laugh and then forget all about you. 😂

100% for it. I also think it should be used against people who assault police officers whether they actually kill the officer or not. Like the thug who pistol-whipped an old white cop, for example. His ass should be deep-fried for that. 👆

And if it was an old black officer instead?

Originally posted by cdtm
One thing I don't understand: How could some of the same people who are against abortions for religious reasons, also support the death penalty?

This is truly hilarious. Convicted murderers who get the death penalty actually deserve to die. Unborn babies deserve to have a chance to live. They're all innocent and have done nothing wrong. Don't see why that's so damn hard to understand. I think the more relevant question is how people who are against evil murderers being rightfully executed be for the unjustly killing of unborn babies who have done no wrong?

Originally posted by cdtm
One thing I don't understand: How could some of the same people who are against abortions for religious reasons, also support the death penalty?

A better question would actually be: How could some of the same ppl who are against the death penalty for moral reasons, also support abortion?

The logic behind abortion is that your definition of humanity can be based in particular vital functions that might not be present in early stages of embryonic development. This could be seen as something atrocious, but it's the same logic we use to kill animals with impunity despite them sharing a huge chunk of our genetic material. We decide they aren't human, then we can just destroy them just fine.

I don't condone death penalty nor I condone prison sentences that end up making worse criminals that the ones that got caught in the first place. I understand that our laws are limited to dealing with practical issues and general laws for particular cases, and that there are limited resources. Punishing humans is an atrocious thing to do, I personally hate it, but it's a social need.

Originally posted by Bentley
The logic behind abortion is that your definition of humanity can be based in particular vital functions that might not be present in early stages of embryonic development. This could be seen as something atrocious, but it's the same logic we use to kill animals with impunity despite them sharing a huge chunk of our genetic material. We decide they aren't human, then we can just destroy them just fine.

I don't condone death penalty nor I condone prison sentences that end up making worse criminals that the ones that got caught in the first place. I understand that our laws are limited to dealing with practical issues and general laws for particular cases, and that there are limited resources. Punishing humans is an atrocious thing to do, I personally hate it, but it's a social need.

So, the "logic" behind it is to dehumanize unborn children via the use of arbitrary criteria? I guess if that worked for the Nazis with the jews, that could work for other ppl too. Sad that we still can see things that way in our day and age. Wouldn't the most easily quantifiable scientific criteria for "human" (minus the fact that they actually come from a human parent), be via testing the DNA? Wouldn't that put unborn babies easily as "human"? Not a scientist but I don't think the same could be said for animals. And even then, there are ppl who seem to abhor animal cruelty but seem a-ok with abortion.

For the record, I was once for DP but has since changed my position ever since I became a father. Life is precious, it is something we need to value beyond our own pettiness.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
So, the "logic" behind it is to dehumanize unborn children via the use of arbitrary criteria? I guess if that worked for the Nazis with the jews, that could work for other ppl too. Sad that we still can see things that way in our day and age. Wouldn't the most easily quantifiable scientific criteria for "human" (minus the fact that they actually come from a human parent), be via testing the DNA? Wouldn't that put unborn babies easily as "human"? Not a scientist but I don't think the same could be said for animals. And even then, there are ppl who seem to abhor animal cruelty but seem a-ok with abortion.

For the record, I was once for DP but has since changed my position ever since I became a father. Life is precious, it is something we need to value beyond our own pettiness.

You didn't just equate people that are pro choice to the Nazis, did you?

Originally posted by -Pr-
You didn't just equate people that are pro choice to the Nazis, did you?

Not equate. No.

Just that the same method of justification thru dehumanization has been effectively used before and is still being used again.

Edit. The same method is also used to dehumanize criminals to make the DP more palatable. OR to dehumanize muslims to make bombing their homes more acceptable or for islamic terrorists to dehumanize their victums, etc. Same MO: "they're not -really- human like us or as much as us, so it's ok to kill them".

Okay.

I don't consider them the same, but maybe that's just me. shrug

To elaborate, I'm not sure about the death penalty either way, but I am pro-choice (within reason).

Originally posted by -Pr-
Okay.

I don't consider them the same, but maybe that's just me. shrug

To elaborate, I'm not sure about the death penalty either way, but I am pro-choice (within reason).

How are they different, tho? Abortion kills human unborn babies. It is just that. Justifying it via "they're not REALLY human, so it's ok to kill them" seems to be the only reason why it seems to be acceptable to many.

For the record, I am not 100% anti abortion. For medical needs, for when there is risk to the mother or for instances of rape, it is justifiable (although it should NEVER be taken lightly). But the argument of "female body autonomy" > human life is laughably callous to me, almost downright evil.

Also, I'm aware that I'm sounding like a broken record about the whole abortion thing (prolly because I mostly agree with a lot of liberal principles but can never be on board with the whole pro-choice movement) so I'm gonna go ahead and bump the abotion thread and see what arguments can be brought forward there.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
How are they different, tho? Abortion kills human unborn babies. It is just that. Justifying it via "they're not REALLY human, so it's ok to kill them" seems to be the only reason why it seems to be acceptable to many.

For the record, I am not 100% anti abortion. For medical needs, for when there is risk to the mother or for instances of rape, it is justifiable (although it should NEVER be taken lightly). But the argument of "female body autonomy" > human life is laughably callous to me, almost downright evil.

Also, I'm aware that I'm sounding like a broken record about the whole abortion thing (prolly because I mostly agree with a lot of liberal principles but can never be on board with the whole pro-choice movement) so I'm gonna go ahead and bump the abotion thread and see what arguments can be brought forward there.

The difference is that I, personally, don't consider a recently fertilised egg to be a "Human life". I think at some point during the pregnancy there is a point where that changes, and after that point, I don't agree with abortion personally unless it's a rape baby or if the child is somehow disabled in a way that will mean no real quality of life for them.

I don't believe in abortion as a method of birth control (though I consider the morning after pill to be separate from that). I don't believe it should be treated casually. I just think it should be an option.

And I say this as someone who believes that 99% of abortions really aren't my ****ing business. I'm a man, and am physically incapable of getting pregnant. The only time it is my business is when the baby is mine, and even then, I don't have the right to tell her whether to keep the baby or not.

That's why I don't generally liken it to the death penalty.

Good idea.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The difference is that I, personally, don't consider a recently fertilised egg to be a "Human life". I think at some point during the pregnancy there is a point where that changes, and after that point, I don't agree with abortion personally unless it's a rape baby or if the child is somehow disabled in a way that will mean no real quality of life for them.

I don't believe in abortion as a method of birth control (though I consider the morning after pill to be separate from that). I don't believe it should be treated casually. I just think it should be an option.

And I say this as someone who believes that 99% of abortions really aren't my ****ing business. I'm a man, and am physically incapable of getting pregnant. The only time it is my business is when the baby is mine, and even then, I don't have the right to tell her whether to keep the baby or not.

That's why I don't generally liken it to the death penalty.

Good idea.

👆

Originally posted by -Pr-
The difference is that I, personally, don't consider a recently fertilised egg to be a "Human life". I think at some point during the pregnancy there is a point where that changes, and after that point, I don't agree with abortion personally unless it's a rape baby or if the child is somehow disabled in a way that will mean no real quality of life for them.

I don't believe in abortion as a method of birth control (though I consider the morning after pill to be separate from that). I don't believe it should be treated casually. I just think it should be an option.

And I say this as someone who believes that 99% of abortions really aren't my ****ing business. I'm a man, and am physically incapable of getting pregnant. The only time it is my business is when the baby is mine, and even then, I don't have the right to tell her whether to keep the baby or not.

That's why I don't generally liken it to the death penalty.

Good idea.

If we follow definitions of either "human" or "life", that notion would be wrong, tho. The only reason why (to some) that "it changes within stages of pregnancy" is because we have been conditioned (by media, mostly IMO) via arbitrarily assigned criteria that somehow fetuses aren't "completely" human. I mean, seriously, how does one even quantify that?

We agree here. And morning after pill is ALMOST acceptable to me, if a child is to die, then at least it should be within this period where the child would not suffer at all. And I also agree that it should be an option. A last resort, however, when there is pretty damned good reason for it.

IMO, no one should go into it thinking that the fetus isn't human. If you're going to kill the child inside you, understand this: you are killing a live human child, who has the potential to dream, to love, to live and to accomplish great things given the chance, to hold your hand as you walk in the park, to wake you up in the morning to ask for cuddles and too look into your eyes with absolute love and trust and that your choice robs this child of all this. And if you think whatever reason you have for wanting the abortion is still paramount, then you have the legal choice to get on with it. Abortion IS legal after all. One of the last form of legalized murders out there (along with government sanctioned assassinations, wars and the death penalty).

I don't know if it's my business or not. The same way I don't know if the genocides in whatever country out there is my business or not. But I do know it is wrong and I'll be damned if I offer any sort of support for it.

Can't seem to find the abortion thread, can someone pls pls bump it for me? I suck with the search function.

*Sigh*... Good post up until you added the part about the death penalty being legalized "murder" which it isn't.

Abortion thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t306413.html

But Ush said he'd prefer a new Abortion thread over bumping the old one anyways, so maybe you can just make it.

From Webster dictionary:

murder- the act of putting a person to death intentionally AND unlawfully.

Ergh! A lil late with that edit there man, I actually ended up bumping it. -_- lol.

Originally posted by Star428
From Webster dictionary:

[b]murder- the act of putting a person to death intentionally AND unlawfully. [/B]

Yes, aware of that definition. That is why I used "legalized" murder. It is a play on words. Edit. Meaning: It is wrong, it SHOULD be illegal, but is legal anyway.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ergh! A lil late with that edit there man, I actually ended up bumping it. -_- lol.

Oh well...mistakes were made.