Serenity

You know, if it had been getting half decent ratings, it wouldn't have been cancelled.

I really don't understand people who say Wash's death was well done. it was a shit death, a total waste of drama, and not for one second did it make me think the characters were any more vulnerable than before. At least Book had some resonance.

There does seem to be an edge of fanaticsim in Firefly fandom that worries me. It was good, but it really wasn't THAT good, and if it had been, more people would have watched the series and more people would have gone to see the movie. Don't go thinking that this is some sort of lost gem. People had a chance to like or not like it, and they chose not to like it, and that's because it is something that can only ever have cult appeal. People LIKE to think that shows like this get ignored because people are stupid. That is wrong- compare the new Battlestar Galactica. That is highbrow and intelligent but by NOT being as niche as Firefly, it has lived and it is a better series for it. You must disengage yourself from the thinking that because crap shows have been known to be popular, it therefore follows that popularity has nothing to do with quality. In this case, Firefly was ignored because it wasn't good enough. It was good at what it did, but that wasn't enough to be a good series. Whedon himself is far less peeved than the fans are, because (as he says) Fox didn't look at Firefly and say it was crap, instead they looked at it and said the material would make a better film than series. I agree; I just don't think the film effort went as well as others say. I still think it was a good film, but it is getting a near messianic write-up in here which is bewildering.

Firefly had good characters and good dialogue (as Whedon always gives), but it had too many characters for what it was trying to do, and it really REALLY had a core appeal for nerds and not much else. That's not a wide enough net. Also a little odd from Whedon, who normally mixed nerdiness with shameless popularity, vis a vis Buffy. Just having Summer Glau in there isn't enough; Buffy was conceptually populist.

If anything, I kept getting the feeling that Whedon was trying to be a little TOO 'in' with the sci-fi fans- hence my comments above, about the Operative being a very Whedon bad guy. I can see the inner workings turning around inside there- and in a mood where it matters, in contrast, as I pointed out, to Star Wars, where it does not. And such a crappy, crappy denouement for the Operative, as well.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I really don't understand people who say Wash's death was well done. it was a shit death, a total waste of drama, and not for one second did it make me think the characters were any more vulnerable than before. At least Book had some resonance.

I get what you are trying to say, but I have only seen the first ep of the series, therefore have nothing to compare the movie too, so, in my opinion the movie was awesome, and based on that, I wish the show hadn't been cancelled, so new fans like me could still be enjoying it...

Serenity is my type of thing, hence why my reviews are so for the movie, not against it. 😛

Cheers,
Mana

Well, that's fair enough; I just feel the villifcation of Fox is harsh. They've given it more than a fair chance.

Did they ever give Firefly a worldwide chance? Or just in America? It seems to me that most of the firefly fans only discovered Firefly after Serenity come to their country (like me).

No series that gets cancelled halfway through its initial run is going to get any significant overseas sales. Foreign networks are normally only interested in something successful.

The UK normally picks up everything, though. Especially with the Whedon name on.

Do anyone know what shows Firefly competed with? I cant see why it had so few fans from the episodes (and the movie) I have seen so far.

As far as I know, nothing specific; it was in a good slot (in the US and Canada). Fans say that low ratings were in part due to bad episode order, blaming Fox.

But episode order gets dicked around with in the States all the time- Babylon 5 was annihilated there, for logical progression, and that was a show where such progression is essential. B5 made five series, so for me that excuse for Firefly doesn't wash. It simply did not pull in enough people. It didn't have a wide enough appeal, I don't think there is anything to be added to that.

A quick look at Wiki shows that it got a not at all bad international distribution, btw.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
it is getting a near messianic write-up in here which is bewildering.

Maybe because people here actually liked it?

Seriously, I couldn't care less who liked and who didn't. I liked it. I loved it in fact. It shouldn't have been cancelled.

It isn't the reserve for nerds as you say it is, it's because it got cancelled before anyone had heard of the damn thing. It was barely even heard of over here in the UK. It's unfair to criticise it when everything was against this show from day one.

If it was made by say, the BBC, it would be in a second run of shows right now, possibly enjoying a boom of sorts, even if it bombed. There are companies that actually see the quality and potential of shows, unlike Fox.

The first series of Red Dwarf, for instance, was a failure in terms of ratings - look how that turned out after a couple of seasons; a phenomenon, one of the few British comedies to get an American version (which sucked and bombed, but thats not the point, it was big) That's because the BBC stuck with it and ploughed on through the hard times and it's one of Britains finest TV exports. That same show started out just like Firefly. Red Dwarf is proof that a badly rated first season can turn into something huge and lucrative, despite the fact the quality was there from the first episode. It's all about how far you push it out there, and for long enough.

That same first series reached number one in the dvd sales charts when it was re-released. Red Dwarf started out poorly (the quality was always there, people just needed something to latch onto). Same goes for Firefly, except it never had the backing of a network that saw the long term worth of the show.

Also, Battlestar Galactica had a cult following already and is pretty famous. Firefly had nothing to go on. It was completely new. You can't compare them really. One had an established history, the other didn't. It was obvious which one was going to attract ratings, regardless of quality.

Perhaps you guys should do petitions and send them to Fox like Family Guy fans did, and hope to hell that FireFly has incredible DVD sales, also like Family Guy so that maybe Fox will consider bringing it back.

But really, in the end, this will probably be another show that will grow in appeal only after it's gone off the air like so many others before it. There's a lot of great shows that were pull off of TV to make room for shit that also later got pulled. One of my favorite show's, The Critic, suffered from this unfortunate fate too.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Maybe because people here actually liked it?

Thanks for that, genius. I think my post makes it clear that the reason I think that is bewildering is because I don't think the show was good enough to deserve it.

Sorry, but Firefly really DID have nerd appeal only, and it was cancelled because people weren;t watching it. How it perfromed in the UK is irrelevant- shows live or die on their home audiences. Dr. Who is getting bugger all ratings in the US but is a stellar success in the UK. It is a UK show, so it is those figures that count. If Firefly had been a big UK success, no difference Still cancelled. It tanked in the states. It was not popular enough.

Red Dwarf had a second series pre-commissioned and it was ready within six months and this was in a very different environment to Firefly's- quite aside from being a BBC show, which works on a totally different premise. Also, I well remember RD's debut, and the ratings weren't THAT bad, just nowhere near as high as later. Firefly's were bad.

BG's success owes pretty much nothing to the earlier series, and would have died a death had it relied on it. Plenty of remakes drop dead just like that. BG has survived because it is high quality, intelligent, and not so narrow on audience appeal.

Firefly, on the other hand, had the Whedon name behind it- and at a time when Buffy and Angel were still running. It got all the publicity and advertising any show would need- and DURING these popular shows. It also had a recognisable Hollywood name in it. It had all the advantages a sci-fi show could have wanted. Heck, if it had just gotten a good proportion of Whedon's own Buffy audience it would have survived. Even they weren't interested enough.

It didn't make the cut. Deny all you like that this was because it was cult appeal only- but tough titty, that's why. People stayed away. It was not for them.

I will also point out once more that one person who would disagree strongly with your view that Fox did not see its potential is Whedon himself, who insists that they certainly did and that fans did not give them enoigh credit. Fox give Firefly more than enough chances, plus a shot at the big screen, FFS. Chances other shows would kill for. It died again. Faced between moaning fan's assessment of Fox and the assesement by the man who was there, in the know, I know whose opinion I go with. They are the ones who have lost money trying to back it, you know.

It's not going to make the grade. Live with it. Nerd appeal only. Sorry.

(BF- Firefly already had its good DVD sales. It's the film that has to sell well now, and I would be surprised if more films are made off the back of DVD sales. Still, we shall see).

*Taps fingers* I am staying out of this debate... just posting some pictures.... 😄

Cheers,
Mana

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, but Firefly really DID have nerd appeal only, and it was cancelled because people weren;t watching it.

I didnt even know about Firefly until last year when an ad came on showing reruns when I was at my aunty's house (she has cable tv, I dont), otherwise I would never have heard about it. If it was played on standard tv as well as cable over here, it would most likely have picked up a lot more interest. When Serenity came out, I didnt know what it was, so I didnt go and see it. I sure as hell would have been lining up if I'd seen Firefly before hand.

Basically, by the time it came out over here, it was already cancelled in the US, so it was a dud release. Im sure Im not the only one who watched it waaaay after it was already cancelled and thought it was an awesome show. If they released it again, say with a new series, the fanbase would already have grown massively from the previous series. Its not because its shit, or whatever, its because it has little coverage and hype (over here at least). Add to that a bunch of half-unknown actors, and the different style of directing compared to Buffy etc, and true, theres not a lot of appeal to watch a new show. But shows like Buffy/24/Stargate get good timeslots on good stations, Firefly would most likely get pushed into some ridiculous time like midnight or something.

If it wasnt for me seeing the ad, or Imag showing me Serenity coming out in cinemas, I would be completely oblivious to this fantastic series. Even a lot of people in this thread have been oblivious to Firefly after watching Serenity. If future series came out as a DVD only, theres enough of an established fanbase to make it worth the time and money.

The fanbase now is far greater than when the show first came out, so its still growing in popularity. It wont fade out as a come and go phase, even if the series has completely stopped. Its not fair to say its only a nerd-appeal only, because as far as I can recall, I've never heard of it being played on tv at a decent timeslot to compete with higher rated shows, and given that its been offline for a few years, people now will rather watch a show like Buffy they have knowledge of, rather than take a chance with something different/new like Firefly.

Again, saying you hadn't heard of it when you are not from the US is a pointless argument- domestic popularity is all that counts. And Firefly got heavy promotion off the Whedon ticket and was in a fair slot.

They already gave it another chance in film form. It failed. I don't even think Whedon is interested in a series any more. More films, but not a series.

If the film had gotten good takings, then fine. That would justify an argument sayiung it had broader appeal. But it did not, and your argument dies there.

You can't blame the networks for its low ratings, or some conspiracy. They backed it- twice. They WANTED it to succeed. It had low ratings not because no-one had heard of it, but because not enough people wanted to see it.

And your comment about people not giving something new a chance is hogwash. Buffy, Babylon 5, X-Files. All started in the same situation as Firefly was. They made it, big time. Babylon 5, in particular, is an example of how, despite being dicked around with with schedules, being a new sort of sci-fi show done in a different way, and lacking the major budget of shows like Star Trek, you can pull off several series that actually advanced the sci-fi medium on television. Babylon 5 WAS popular enough to succeed, because it broadened the appeal without compromising its values (and the first series was the worst series, too). Firefly- which had a stronger cast line-up than B5, and was in a prime friday evening slot- tried that and failed. Firefly was beaten in a fair fight- people will have to accept that.

Again... cult, nerd appeal only. I don't see why you are afraid of that. Some of the best stuff ever written is nerd appeal only. It so happens I think this is only good, not excellent. But regardless of anything else, that's why it's not going anywhere, and if you wanted a show that was going places, it would need a broader appeal. 'End of'.

I finally got around to watching Serenity today, and Im ashamed I've put it off for this long. The movie was unbelievable. Far surpassed my expectations. If that was entirely the end of the series, it was a deserving send off.

You can't stop the Serenity.