Originally posted by Twilight Janick
www.ditl.org will do for the Enterprise-E ratings. Take the uprated Sovereign for it, though.
Amusing. A website made by one guy who writes ST fanfic.
I've heard of it before. Here's a quote from Mistah Wong noting Daystrom's bad estimates:
"By the way, the concept of energy balances is deceptively simple in definition, but it is misunderstood with frightening regularity, which is very ironic considering that people are talking about science fiction and claim to understand science. One example is the Genesis Device seen in ST2. Trekkies have advanced ludicrous energy estimates for the Genesis Device (the author of the Daystrom Institute Technical Library claims that a "conservative" estimate for the Genesis Device energy output is 2E48 J!), but in reality, their claims merely serve as good illustrations of how not to perform an energy balance:
The erroneous trekkie "analysis" goes as follows: the mass of the planet must collapse quickly to form a planet (actually, the author of the aforementioned propaganda claims that it formed an entire star system even though the entire process took place inside an existing star system). Therefore, we can generate some arbitrary figures for the size of the nebula (eg. Mr. Kennedy claims that the nebula is 1.5 light years wide even though it is small enough to fit inside a star system, reachable from a nearby planet within minutes at sublight velocities). Once we have generated these large and impressive (albeit totally incorrect) numbers, we can assume that the entire collapse process occurs in seconds (although the actual elapsed time is totally unknown). Since we have exaggerated this combination of nebula size and elapsed time to the point where it necessitates superluminal collapse speeds, we can then conclude that the matter is warp-driven (perhaps they put tiny warp nacelles on all of the little molecules). Therefore, we can use the warp-power chart in the TM to guesstimate the energy required to raise the speed of the matter by the necessary amount to form an entire solar system (even though only a planet was formed). Even if we disregard the various logical and dimensional errors in this analysis, we can easily determine that it violates the First Law of Thermodynamics for two reasons:
The change in energy states is negative, not positive! When a planet or even an entire star system is formed from a nebula, the energy state of the newly-formed planet (or star system, if one chooses to accept the author's non-canon assumptions about creating an entire star system) is actually lower than the energy state of the pre-existing nebula. In fact, given enough time, it is entirely possible that gravitational forces would have eventually drawn the nebula together into a single mass naturally! While the Death Star must take a planet in a low gravitational potential energy state and bring its entire mass to a high gravitational potential energy state, the Genesis Device did the exact opposite: it took a nebula with a high gravitational potential energy state and brought it to a low gravitational potential energy state. This means that the process of drawing a nebula together into a planet and/or star will actually tend to release energy rather than consuming it.
Where does all the excess energy go? If the Genesis Device actually releases 2E48 J of energy, it has to go somewhere! If it expends all of that energy to accelerate the matter to incredible speeds, what happens when all of that matter reaches the target? Does the kinetic energy simply disappear? It cannot simply disappear, due to the First Law of Thermodynamics. 2E48 J of energy is equivalent to the simultaneous explosion of tens of millions of supernovae- such a massive release of energy would have obliterated the entire Regula star system and most likely eliminated all life on nearby star systems as well. There is no way to perform work on an object without raising its energy state: accelerated objects gain kinetic energy, deformed objects gain thermal energy, etc. Federation cultists ask us to believe that an input of 2E48 J actually lowered the energy state of the Mutara Nebula!
We can clearly see that the trekkie claims regarding the Genesis Device are based on a deplorable misunderstanding of the First Law of Thermodynamics; instead of comparing the "before" and "after" energy states, as anyone with thermodynamics or physics training would do, they make uneducated guesses about what happens during the process itself, and don't particularly care whether it makes any sense from the point of view of overall energy balances. To summarize, don't make the same mistakes made by trekkies: remember that "energy after" - "energy before" = "energy input". Thus endeth the lesson."
TJ, I'm not being biased here, Star Trek DIES HORRIBLY against Star Wars. I love Star Trek, but it's NOT known for it's military ability. Star Wars IS.
First, look at pure FTL travel times.
The Intrepid, an advanced ship class, took 16 YEARS to cross that galaxy. A Star Wars ship can make the same journey in less than a few weeks.
I'm also curious as to why you are comparing The Flagship of the Federation against an EXTREMELY common Imperial Ship. The Federation built three Soverign class, the Imperial built 25000 Imperial Star Destroyers.
Quote from Stardestroyer.net:
"If the asteroids were 40 meters in diameter (and some were much larger), the TLs were directing at least 2000 TJ of energy to vaporise the asteroids, many times the conservative energy level presented above. If the amount of time the bolt is striking the asteroid is 1/15 second (2 frames), 30,000 Terawatts are delivered to the asteroid. Assuming these turbolaser cannons have a maximum firing rate of once every two seconds, they have a sustained firepower of at least 1000 terawatts. The most solid evidence that suggests 40 meter asteroids was in the Avenger-Falcon chase scene, coming out of the asteroid field. One asteroid was at least 60 meters in diameter, which would require at least 6700 terajoules to vaporise! Another asteroid in a previous scene may have been as large as 100 meters in diameter, requiring at least 31,000 terajoules to vaporise! "
31,000 Terajoules of energy from 60 guns. It would take a SINGLE Imperial Star Destroyer ~5 seconds to breach the Enterprise's shields.
31,000(terajoules from each gun)*30(60 guns firing once every two seconds)=930,000(joules per second)
4,590,000(Soverign Shield capability)/930,000(energy released from Imperial Star Destroyer every second)=4.93548387(seconds)
Remember, that the most powerful ship the Federation has against a SINGLE ship that the Impire has 25000 of. FIVE SECONDS and the Enterprise is gone!
To futher impress this upon you, the fire power from a SINGLE Imperial Star Destroyer could destroy the ENTIRE Federation fleet even if EVERY ship in their fleet was a SOVERIGN.
~5(seconds to destroy a soverign)*8000(~approximatly the number of ships in the Federation Fleet)=40000(seconds)
40000(seconds)/3600(number of seconds in an hour)=11.1111111 hours.
Less than half a day for a SINGLE ship in the Imperial Navy to destroy the ENTIRE Federation Navy assuming the Federation Navy consist of ONLY SOVERIGN class ships(their most powerful ship constructed).
I have another site, much more neutral than stardestroyer.net: www.st-v-sw.net will do. If the STL speeds of Star Wars are sluggish compared to Sovereigns (the MOST sluggish of Federation ships), then ISDs have very slow accelerations (max: 20g) and the Sovereigns have 3,400G! I use that site as reference for FTL speeds. Amidala's yacht took 16 hours to cross ONE parsec (3,26 light-years) and at normal hyperspeeds, the Rebel fleet went from Sullust to Endor (200 light-years) in a week or so. Then, the figures as to travel 100,000 light-years (or even 12,000 light-years in a few weeks are totally contradicted by the movies.
Originally posted by Twilight Janick
I have another site, much more neutral than stardestroyer.net: www.st-v-sw.net will do. If the STL speeds of Star Wars are sluggish compared to Sovereigns (the MOST sluggish of Federation ships), then ISDs have very slow accelerations (max: 20g) and the Sovereigns have 3,400G! I use that site as reference for FTL speeds. Amidala's yacht took 16 hours to cross ONE parsec (3,26 light-years) and at normal hyperspeeds, the Rebel fleet went from Sullust to Endor (200 light-years) in a week or so. Then, the figures as to travel 100,000 light-years (or even 12,000 light-years in a few weeks are totally contradicted by the movies.
st-v-sw.net is BIASED since it's designed by a ST fan. Not to mention it's completely out of any logic.
a) Amidala's yacht traveling:
We don't know how long that travel really was since the author of ST-v-SW.net is using times on CORUSCANT to figure out what time it is on Geonosis / Tatooine. How stupid can somebody be ? Why would a planet on the other side of the galaxy would have the same daytime as planet A (Tatooine) and planet B (Geonosis) ?
If you go by the AotC script and the movie Obi-Wan is sending his message from Geonosis to Anakin in the morning. We know that the communication works instantly since Obi-Wan could directly speak to Yoda and Mace on Geonosis while being on Carmino.
No R2-D2 on Tatooine receives the message during daytime on Tatooine and from the light seen you can assume it must be late on the day. That means there is a huge difference in time between Geonosis and Tatooine (easily 6 or more hours).
Now we know that Padme and Anakin left Tatooine during the sunset (let's say 6-7 p.m. - which would be 1 p.m or earlier on Geonosis) and did arive on Geonosis during daytime again.
So where do people get the "16 hours" from ? The only scenes happening during the time they travel are one scene on Coruscant (day time) and one on Geonosis (again day time).
And even is the statment is right that they needed 16 hours for one parsec. That is Warp 9.37 in ST terms.
b) Rebel fleet traveling from Sullust to Endor:
Again we don't know how much time that took. What we know is that the Rebel fleet entered hyperspace when the team under the command of Han Solo was already on Endor. And as far as we know they only spend 2 days on Endor.
That means they travelled 200 lightyears in less than 48 hours which would be Warp 9.99+ in terms of the ST universe. Even if they would have needed an entire week (168 hours) they would still have travelled with Warp 9.99+
So what is your point here ?
c) Being really fast:
The distance between Tatooine and Alderaan is exactly 40,000 lightyears and the Millenium Falcon crossed that distance in 7 hours in ANH. That means the Millenium Falcon can cross distances with the speed of 50,000,000c while the maximum speed of Star Trek ships would be Warp 9.9999 approxematly 200,000c. Any questions ?
And thats just the travel thing. How about the range part..
Thats even worse, range of 60 kilometers? Explain the Death Star then? Explain how entire ships could start bombing planets from orbit, thats far more then 60 kilometers to fire. The guy is obviously biased. He spends a lot of time in finding things that make the SW range seem low, but then completely misses all the much easier things which show that the range is actually quite large...
Originally posted by Twilight Janick
I have another site, much more neutral than stardestroyer.net: www.st-v-sw.net will do. If the STL speeds of Star Wars are sluggish compared to Sovereigns (the MOST sluggish of Federation ships), then ISDs have very slow accelerations (max: 20g) and the Sovereigns have 3,400G! I use that site as reference for FTL speeds. Amidala's yacht took 16 hours to cross ONE parsec (3,26 light-years) and at normal hyperspeeds, the Rebel fleet went from Sullust to Endor (200 light-years) in a week or so. Then, the figures as to travel 100,000 light-years (or even 12,000 light-years in a few weeks are totally contradicted by the movies.
Apparently you don't even know what you are arguing for, muchless what you are arguing against. The Soverign was one of the FASTEST Federation Ships of all time, perhaps even the very fastest.
Second, the Acceleration of a Star Destroyer is more than 20g, it is actually 2,300g. It's also several times the Soverign's mass.
Even the Acclamator, an outdated ship(nearly a hundred years old) is capable of accelerating at 3,500 G.
As a side note, either answer people's questions or leave. You've left almost everything we've shown that goes against your case unaswered, and that pisses people off.
Tatooine to Alderaan took ten days, the www.ditl.org warp figures are completely wrong, and Tatooine to Alderaan is about 300 light-years.
Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Tatooine to Alderaan took ten days
That's simply wrong. You simply didn't understand the things told in ANH right:
Han: Anyway, we should be at Alderaan about 0200 hours.
That means they will reach Alderaan at 2 a.m. and not that they needed 200 hours to fly from Tatooine to Alderaan. So stop posting things like that.
, the www.ditl.org warp figures are completely wrong,
ditl.org ? I never visited that side...
http://www.ussbelgica.be/engineering/warp_formulae.php
Read that and start crying. ST ships are MUCH slower than SW ones.
and Tatooine to Alderaan is about 300 light-years.
ROFL ? Where did you get that stuff from. Tatooine and Alderaan are 40,000 lightyears away from each other. Alderaan is pretty close to the core worlds while Tatooine is at the Outer Rim (so on the edge of the Galaxy). The SW Galaxy is 100,000 lightyears wide so 50,000 lightyears from the core to the Outer Rim.
And even if you are right (and you aren't...sorry) the Millenium Falcon would have crossed 300 lightyears in 200 hours which is 1,5 lightyears per hour and that would be 13149c and thereby faster than Warp 9,99. Period.
Or let it tell me to you the other way around. The Voyager would need about 75 years to cross 70,000 lightyears back to the Alpha Quadrant with maximum speed. The Millenium Falcon, with the speed you estimated (which is horribly wrong) would need around 5 years and 4 months for the same distance.
Again: Your point being ?
But the ISDs reactors are hydrogen-fusion. This quote, taken from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, clearly shows it for every SW ship:
Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers.