Poll
33%
67%
Done before I still the infinite Empire wins.
the Galactic Empire good as it was still lost to the rebellion who was by all means outnumbered outgunned and outclassed.
The Infinite Empire would perhaps be outnumbered and outgunned but far from outclassed. And their technology is great as well. They have billions of force users, imagine the damage those people can do against the Galactic Empire.
All Rakatan at the start would have to be around Malak his level of power, or at least not that much weaker (probably not weaker at all but instead far more powerful) They were smart they knew how to adpot and even 21.000 years later their technology was still cutting edge.
the Star Forge is also able to adopt to new designs (Revan his robes, the no longer needing the force for hyperspace part) They were the one's that invented hyperspace travel for as far as we can tell. And i'm sure they are more then skilled enough to somehow take a SD or an SSD. The Star Forge would probably be able to reproduce it and the Raktan would use it against the Empire.
And thats not even mentioning the billion force users part yet. I mean a billion force users. They would completely pwn the Empire with this. If one X-Wing can take out the Death Star. Imagine with a million force users in fighters can do. GE has the fire power, but lacks everyting else.
TG, we can. If you don't like this match-up, do post in it.
Fishy: "The Infinite Empire would perhaps be outnumbered and outgunned but far from outclassed. And their technology is great as well. They have billions of force users, imagine the damage those people can do against the Galactic Empire."
It took a fleet of their ships to knock out Taris. Turns out that fleet only knocked out almost everything; ship capable of base delta zero wouldn't exist for another 3900 years(the Acclamator).
Second, the force users appear to be more like the Korunnia(at best), force sensitive, but not trained in the force. There were 1 billion of them at their height(quote, Rakata Computer). It is unreasonable to say many of these were trained, or that even all of them were force sensitive to begin with.
Fishy, "All Rakatan at the start would have to be around Malak his level of power, or at least not that much weaker (probably not weaker at all but instead far more powerful) They were smart they knew how to adpot and even 21.000 years later their technology was still cutting edge."
WHAT!! All of them at Malaks powerlevel! This makes zero sense. Because they were smart? Brains doesn't mean power. Look at Anakin. He was virtually retarded. Same with Kaan. Brain doesn't show power at all. Sidious was probably smarter than Ludo Kressh, but Kressh would waste him. Also, being able to control the Star Forge isn't a proper indicator of this. It is easier to control ones own technology than a foreign one, on top of the fact that you blindly assume that every single Rakata was able to control the Star Forge.
And their technology being on par with technology 21000 years later. Well, what does this show. That they hit a point and then no longer advanced. On par with technology that is 4000 years old by the time the GE arrived, and technology of the KOTOR times if FAR weaker than GE technology.
Foshy, "the Star Forge is also able to adopt to new designs (Revan his robes, the no longer needing the force for hyperspace part) They were the one's that invented hyperspace travel for as far as we can tell."
They didn't invent hyperspace travel, they invented the hyperdrive. And this means what exactly? They invented something that the GE has had for a long time. A very long time. GE hyperdrive is also far more advanced that Rakata hyperdrives.
Only 600 years earlier, the standard hyperdrive was a class 3(The Dreadnought class). The Acclamator(the predecessor to the Imperial class) was capable of Class 0.7 speeds. The Imperator was downgraded to a class two, I think, but it is still FAR faster than anything that the Rakata had.
Fishy, "And i'm sure they are more then skilled enough to somehow take a SD or an SSD. The Star Forge would probably be able to reproduce it and the Raktan would use it against the Empire."
Can you prove this? You don't have, or at least haven't shown any basis for this except that they were able to reproduce FAR less advanced technology. And it was the Star Forge that produced the ships, but it was the Sith Engineers, people who already understood the tecnnology who reproduced it. There is no grounds(at least none that I see) that show that the Rakata have any chance of reproducing any of the GE technology.
Fishy, "And thats not even mentioning the billion force users part yet. I mean a billion force users. They would completely pwn the Empire with this. If one X-Wing can take out the Death Star. Imagine with a million force users in fighters can do. GE has the fire power, but lacks everyting else."
There were NOT a billion force users, as stated above. It is completly unreasonable to expect that EVERYONE in their civilization was a force user or even force sensitive. Name one other civilization that was like that out of all the others.
So apparently you believe that the Death Star is the only GE weapon and that every Rakata is Luke Skywalker. You also seem to believe that the Rakata have proton torpedos. The Rakata were powerful; easily enough to get the GE to take them as a thread. All 7000 Tie Fighters on the Death Star will be sent against the Rakata and they will be destroyed.
And that's the weaker Death Star. The Second Death Star would be nearly invincible against attack when completed. The Sun Crusher would simple destroy every system it entered if the GE had it while fighitng the Rakata. Same with the Galaxy Gun, or the Eclipse one or two. The World Devastators would destroy a Rakata fleet.
The GE hardly lacks everything else. Look at pure manpower. There were one billion Rakata TOTAL at their height. The Regular Storm Troopers alone outnumber their entire civilization more than two to one.
The Imperators crew alone could almost match them man for man.
25,000(number of Imperators)*36000(number of people on each ship, minus the number of Storm Troopers on board)=900,000,000
Each Imperator had dozens, if not hundreds of support ships. The Rakata can't even hope to man that many ships.
Fishy, I'm going to admit, you just lost a lot of credibility with me. Your post seemed unreasonable almost the entire way through.
He's still one of the best here in my mind. Before, Whatever he said I usually considered true unless I saw knew otherwise, but now, Illustrious or you would probably be able to get me to believe them more easily(as in, credibilty of word).
No offense intended Fishy, you're still a ton better at debate than me.
Wasn't it TEN billion Rakata at their prime? Which is still a ridiculously low number, for a galaxy(mostly) wide empire.
But see Gelntract? You see how much you know of GE technology? How many troops to a ship, what type of ship, the firepower of a ship, the extent of the Empire Force-knowledge.
Now look at the IE. WHAT type of ships did they have? How many? How many troops to a ship? How much firepower?
Just cause we know so little about the IE, doesn't mean we are to assume they were worse, they could have been better. But we don't know.
We can use facts to see that they were worse. I just got my KOTOR game back from a friend about an hour ago, so I haven't checked that, but I'll try to soon.
Anyway, no, 1 billion isn't low. They had 500 planets. The GE had about a million member worlds(member worlds. there were several times more colony worlds).
The 500 planets I'll give ya...I mean come on. Noone rules a galaxy with 500 planets, no matter what's said.
But a billion--10 even. Give us about 50 years and Earth will be that number. And to have total control over said 500 planets, well they couldn't garrison them all, the slaves would have an easy time overthrowing them.
So, to keep order for 1000's of years, they must have had decent ships to keep 'em in line.
Still though, we just (J.C. I'm reiterating) don't know enough about their TECHNOLOGY, just not enough.
But hey, numbers are on the side of the Imps, so f*ck the Rakata.
Even if we can't make a great comparison, we can still attempt it.
Second, yes, they only had five hundred planets. The slaves were able to be controlled even though they outnumbered the Rakata 100 to 1 probably in a situation like the Nazi camps. The Jews their outnumbered the Nazi like a hundred to one.
The Republic only had one clone for each planet in their space(shatterpoint).
Jews also lacked any equpiment whatsoever, which the slaves would need to fuel the rakata economy. Otherwise, they wouldn't be slaves.
And dude, I KNOW the GE would win, I just feel it's unfair to make such a biased opinion without giving the Rakata any merit.
Uh! Don't get me started on the Clone numbers. 1.2 million my ass.
Glentract a few things. They had 10 billion Rakatan and 1 billion soldiers..
Thats a billion force users, yes they were all force users. Thats how they powered their ships whats the use of having ships powered by the force if your troops don't have the force?
On the other races, Miraklu for instance also all had the force, they could see through the foce. (Visas and her race). Not necessarily all trained in it, but they could use it. The Rakatan however were trained in the force, the Rakatan computer says so.
So that means we have 1 billion trained force users. Who use the force to power their ships going out to fight a far more technological advanced Empire. But technology does not always cut it. All the Rakatan have to do is keep the Star Forge hidden (can't be that hard to do) then strike and run. And with force users in their army doing something like that can't be that hard.
And think about ground battles, even a weak force user can kill god knows how many troops. And these Rakatan were trained with the force for a long time seeing as it was the driving motivator behind their lives. You needed the force to enter the temple of ancients, you needed the force to control the star forge, you needed the force to use ships. They knew damn well what the force was and how to use it, it would be really strange if not. I mean seriously a billion force users in a warrior race. All using the Dark Side. The damage they are going to do against the Empire is going to be enormous.
And like I already said in my previous post there is proof that the Star Forge can adept to new technology, Revan his robes are a good example of this. The hyperdrive engines being able to fly without the use of the force. The Star Forge can change technology. Steal technology from the empire analyse it and use it.
also you can't forget the droids. The Star Forge could create god knows how many droids in a really short period of time. They are going to be quite good in assisting the Rakatan army's.
Originally posted by Fishy
Glentract a few things. They had 10 billion Rakatan and 1 billion soldiers..Thats a billion force users, yes they were all force users. Thats how they powered their ships whats the use of having ships powered by the force if your troops don't have the force?
On the other races, Miraklu for instance also all had the force, they could see through the foce. (Visas and her race). Not necessarily all trained in it, but they could use it. The Rakatan however were trained in the force, the Rakatan computer says so.
First:
The Empire controlled thousands (or even millions) of planets. Coruscants population alone is 1 Trillion people (!) and we know that 365 trillion people died during the YV invasion. So they are greatly outnumbering the Infinite Empire
Second:
1 billion trained force users ? Trained to which degree ? Ok...they could use the force to control their ships but that isn't more than influence some circuits and that's how Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon disabled the battle droids (according to the TPM novel). So they can do things that Padawans can do without much concentration.
Third:
Considering the fact that the Miraluka are all physically blind their ability to see through the force might just come from their need to do that. All Koruunai are able to influence some animals through the force but that hardly makes them uber powerful force users.
So that means we have 1 billion trained force users. Who use the force to power their ships going out to fight a far more technological advanced Empire. But technology does not always cut it. All the Rakatan have to do is keep the Star Forge hidden (can't be that hard to do) then strike and run. And with force users in their army doing something like that can't be that hard.
Keeping the SF hidden:
You know that Hyperspace routes can be tracked back ?
Strike and run:
Against the Galactic Empire ? Do you have the Imperial Source Book ?
Just to throw some number in here. The smallest amount of ships used in the Imperial Navy is called "battle squadron" such a battle squadron contains:
1 Imperial-Class Star Destroyer
3 lines of other battleships (two attack lines, one pursuit line - each containing 18 ships average)
That would be 55 ships total.
Now the next bigger thing is called "Force Superiority" containing 3 battle squadrons, so:
3 Imperial-Class Star Destroyers
162 other battle ships
Next bigger thing is called "Superiority Fleet" containing 2 Force Superiorities or 6 battle squadrons:
6 Imperial-Class Star Destroyers
324 other battle ships
Now the Standart Sector Fleet contains 4 Superiority fleets. So the "normal" sector fleet would have:
24 Imperial- Class Star Destroyers
1296 other battle ships
Even if you like to assume that none of the other ships would have some starfighters, each Star Destroyer carries 72 of them (48 TIE fighters, 12 TIE Interceptors, 12 Bombers) which would be (in one sector fleet):
1152 TIE- Fighters
288 TIE- Interceptors
288 TIE- Bombers
And they have ships that can prevent other ships from entering hyperspace. So the Rakatan have to take out the Interdictor ships just to be able to enter hyperspace again while being confronted with totaly superior firepower and stuff like ion-canons which can disable ships and - as far as we know - weren't around in KotoR times.
That are only the numbers for a "standart" sector. I guess they would have more than that on vital points. Kuat Sector Defence for example has far more ships than that (at least on thing that is only little bit smaller than the Executor - in AOTC times)
And think about ground battles, even a weak force user can kill god knows how many troops. And these Rakatan were trained with the force for a long time seeing as it was the driving motivator behind their lives. You needed the force to enter the temple of ancients, you needed the force to control the star forge, you needed the force to use ships. They knew damn well what the force was and how to use it, it would be really strange if not. I mean seriously a billion force users in a warrior race. All using the Dark Side. The damage they are going to do against the Empire is going to be enormous.
In a ground battle ? Using the numbers of the sector fleet above (still estimating that only the ISD's have ground forces):
20 AT-AT's on each ISD = 480 in each sector fleet
30 AT-ST's on each ISD = 720 in each sector fleet
9,700 clone troopers on each ISD = 232,800 clone troopers in each sector fleet.
And some note: JEDI can take out many troops. Do you ever have seen the Rakatan using lightsaber or other weapons capable of deflecting / redirecting blasterfire ? I've only seen them using normal melee weapons and they would get pretty much owned using that things in a ground battle against the GE forces.
And note that even Jedi were outgunned by clone troopers on some occassions (e.g. Ki-Adi-Mundi in ROTS)
And like I already said in my previous post there is proof that the Star Forge can adept to new technology, Revan his robes are a good example of this. The hyperdrive engines being able to fly without the use of the force. The Star Forge can change technology. Steal technology from the empire analyse it and use it.
a)
Revan's robes where designed by the SF seing that the "lightside pendant" are as good and called "Star Forge Robes". I think that's one of the inconsistencies in the came.
b)
Where did you get the "hyperdrive engines being able to fly without the force" from ? They were used by SITH or Dark Jedi - so...force users.
c)
Even if the SF can steal technology they first need some source for that and while the SF might be able to build ISD's and TIE-Fighters I doubt it's big enough to spit out an Executor class ship or a Death Star.
also you can't forget the droids. The Star Forge could create god knows how many droids in a really short period of time. They are going to be quite good in assisting the Rakatan army's.
And according to Lucas own idea about SW (all stormtroopers = clones) the Empire must have produced more than 250 million clones in 19 years or 1500 clones per hour average and they are superior to droids.
Then just have a look at the Imperial Navy's "cookies":
14 Executor class ships
weapons (each):
350 heavy turbo laser batteries
350 light turbo laster batteries
250 missle launchers
250 ion canons
40 tractor beams
(all numbers that weren't corrected when they corrected the length from 8 to 19 kilometres)
4 ships of a "Souvereign class"
500 heavy turbolasers
500 light turbolasers
75 ion cannons
100 tractor beams
Gravity well projector
Eclipse class ships
several thousand turbolasers
a superlaser canon capable to crack the crust of a planet
600 TIE-Interceptors
96 TIE-Bombers
150,000 Storm Troopers
Now just add the Galaxy gun, two Death Stars (+ 1 prototype) and the Sun Hammer, serveral Dark Jedi (the Emperors Hands and people like Jerec), DE Sidious (force storm !), Vader or a military genious like Thrawn (who plays in Revan's league as far as we know) and I can't believe that the Infinite Empire would be able to take the Galactic Empire despite of the fact they have the Star Forge.
On the stromtroopers = clones part
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html.
So that lowers the power of the recruites quite a bit, and also doesn't mean much about their ability to create clones anymore. And actually I think the Star Forge is a great tool here but nothing more. Still the GE powerful as it is has no force users. In straight up battles the IE stands no chance even ground battles you have convinced me of that much, but you can still sneak around.
a)
Revan's robes where designed by the SF seing that the "lightside pendant" are as good and called "Star Forge Robes". I think that's one of the inconsistencies in the came.b)
Where did you get the "hyperdrive engines being able to fly without the force" from ? They were used by SITH or Dark Jedi - so...force users.c)
Even if the SF can steal technology they first need some source for that and while the SF might be able to build ISD's and TIE-Fighters I doubt it's big enough to spit out an Executor class ship or a Death Star.
A) Wrong. Revan wore the robes before he went to the Star Forge for the first time. It makes no sense that they are called Star Forge Robes later on. But they probably just are because the robes were created by the Star Forge. But we know Revan had those robes before he ever went to the Star Forge. That the Star Forge can create light side robes is still incredibly stupid but okay...
B)Yeah there were plenty of force users, but okay I have no real evidence, it just seems strange that every ship would be powered by force users. Still possible but okay.
C)Hell no, its not going to stand a chance in hell of building a thing like that. At least I don't think so, of course I could be wrong but still. Even so Nai, the Rakatan do have the power to adopt to technology. And although an SSD would still be damn hard to take down, its not completely impossible.
But again for the Rakatan full out battles have to be prevented especially against larger fleets. Once they steal information and technology they can start fighting against more powerful fleets with ISD's but until that time... Stay the hell away. Still how hard could it be to capture one of those things with force users?
First:
The Empire controlled thousands (or even millions) of planets. Coruscants population alone is 1 Trillion people (!) and we know that 365 trillion people died during the YV invasion. So they are greatly outnumbering the Infinite EmpireSecond:
1 billion trained force users ? Trained to which degree ? Ok...they could use the force to control their ships but that isn't more than influence some circuits and that's how Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon disabled the battle droids (according to the TPM novel). So they can do things that Padawans can do without much concentration.Third:
Considering the fact that the Miraluka are all physically blind their ability to see through the force might just come from their need to do that. All Koruunai are able to influence some animals through the force but that hardly makes them uber powerful force users.
First: I never said otherwise, heavily outnumbered but they have the force.
Second: Well controlling a ship and taking out a droid is going to have some kind of difference.
Third: You actually believe that the Rakatan controlled the Dark Side of the force because they needed to conquer other races and needed to build a powerful empire?
I still believe that if the Rakatan play this smart, the Empire will lose. I mean it lost against the rebellion because of stupid mistakes. The Rakatan are going to have some edges that the rebellion did not have. And they might actually use those things to win.
Originally posted by Fishy
C)Hell no, its not going to stand a chance in hell of building a thing like that. At least I don't think so, of course I could be wrong but still. Even so Nai, the Rakatan do have the power to adopt to technology. And although an SSD would still be damn hard to take down, its not completely impossible.
The Rakata don't have the power to adopt to technology. It was the engineers from the Sith Fleet that adopted it to a technology they already knew about.
But again for the Rakatan full out battles have to be prevented especially against larger fleets. Once they steal information and technology they can start fighting against more powerful fleets with ISD's but until that time... Stay the hell away. Still how hard could it be to capture one of those things with force users?[/QUOTE]
Very hard. And even if they got it, like I said above, they wouldn't be able to replicate it. Could Archimedes build a Porche even with a model to build from?
First: I never said otherwise, heavily outnumbered but they have the force.
Second: Well controlling a ship and taking out a droid is going to have some kind of difference.
Third: You actually believe that the Rakatan controlled the Dark Side of the force because they needed to conquer other races and needed to build a powerful empire?[/QUOTE]
They are worse of than the Jedi in the Purge here. The Empire has honed force user hunting technology for years.
Even if they were equal with relativly powerful force users(Akk Guards) they still would lose. 24 Clones killed 6 Akk Guards. Nick Rostu was there as was Mace Windu, but the Akk Guards were allied with Kav Vastor and Depa.
I still believe that if the Rakatan play this smart, the Empire will lose. I mean it lost against the rebellion because of stupid mistakes. The Rakatan are going to have some edges that the rebellion did not have. And they might actually use those things to win. [/QUOTE]
A civilization of bunch(far from a billion, IMO) will be enough to get Palpatine to take them very seriously.
Second, if Thrawn plays a part in this, the Rakata will be crushed. Thrawn's forces were outnumbered by a ton. He had something like 10 ISD's. He managed to destroy 10 percent of the Republic Fleet and cause massive damage to another thirty percent. This was all which out numbered by a ton. The GE has shown the ability to work well whilc outnumbered, but the Rakata have shown no such thing.
Third, as more of a side note, the Star Forge doesn't mean victory against the GE.
There were 25,000 ISD's built in 20 years max, probably closer to 10 or 15(beause of design time. the Venator was by far the main ship of the clone wars.)
That's more than 1000 ISD per year. A ISD is more than ten times as massive as the Leviathan, the biggest Rakata ship thus far seen.
There were 54 support ships for each ISD. That's 55,000 ships per year.
Next, the ISD is FAR from the biggest GE Ship. There were the SSD, the Soverigns, the Eclipse's, the World Devastators, thousands of Dreadnoughts, hundreds or even thousands of Nebula Frigates, thousands of Corellian Corvetts and Corellian Gunships, ect.
It takes the Empire about 10 hours to build an ISD. The build other attack ships for JUST the ISD line at a rate of about six per hour.
The Rakata, even with full production from the Star Forge, can't compete, especiall with the Empires 55,000 ships per second JUST for the ISD line.
As another side note, the Rakata have about 500 planets. The Empire has about 1,000,000-51,000,000. I'm not sure which, so we will go with the worst case figure of 1,000,000.
1,000,000/500=2000. The G. Empire has at minimum two thousand planets for every one the Rakata had. If we take best case, the G. Empire had 102,000 planets for every one planet the Rakata had. Their resources are just to low.