It was...not entirely unexpected, I suppose, but not exactly the route I was hoping they'd go.
Spoiler:
Not that I've ever cared hugely for Ianto as a character, but even so. There are other ways to have a dramatic impact than to simply kill off the majority of the recurring cast. As if Exit Wounds hadn't done that enough...
Yeah, the
Spoiler:might have helped guessing towards that. I was happy with it actually.
growing old part in one of the first episodes that Ianto mentioned
As for the whole 5 part series, I thought it was fantastic, some of the best Torchwood episodes so far. Brilliant. Final episode was just cruel(in a good way).
It was definitely the best Torchwood story by a country mile.
Skewed off a bit for the end though I think. A little too cynical about authority (not a single Government minister resigned or even protested, and the same again fior the military, and even UNIT), a little too unbelievable about how it would all happen, a little too rushed at the end, a little too quick and neat about how to solve it all, and not neat enough in tying the remaining ends up (which they cannot pretend they didn't have time for!). There were consequences demanded for some characters that really needed to come but never did- only
Spoiler:got one; there were plenty of others. Even if it was that they somehow avoided what they deserve, there needed to be something.
the Prime Minister (not a popular job in the Whoniverse)
I actually think it was the cyncism that got to me most- very much a 'everyday people on estates are good, all authority figures are evil'... which is a bit shit really. There should have been SOME conflict in the authority figure side of the story; as it is they all seemed to give in and paint themselves into a moral black hole with amazing ease.
Still. The ratings have been huge; the whole format has been a massive success and pretty much everyone is saying that this is how it should have been from the start.
There was enough 'authority conflict/consequence' for me, even if they didn't quit etc, the man
Spoiler:more than made up for that. Also had
shooting himself and his family
Spoiler:Lois and so on. Plenty to keep me happy anyway.
Agent Johnson and her teams turning partly, the woman who got the contacts off
Didn't spoil it at all for me.
I really hope Johnson and Lois become part of the Torchwood team for the next series.
See, thst was all part of the problem.
Spoiler:, Agent Johnson is a callous and cold blooded murderer, something which seemed to be conveniently forgotten (and you want her as part of the team? Are you frigging insane? There was nothing remotely redeeming about her. She killed the doctor in the first episode for no better reason that it was convenient for fooling Jack- she needs a life sentence for that alone- and if her men weren't so frigging useless she would have offed Gwen and Ianto without a second thought as well, full in the knowledge that they had done nothing wrong)... she was pure evil, for Christ's sake! You may as well want The Master on the team, though he was at least a better Prime Minister.
The suicide was a result of having been betrayed, not his moral conscience, and it also made no sense when he could have just blown the lid on the whole thing and run for it- what was thew worse that could have happened?
Lois was still an ordinary person rather than part of 'the system', not part of the decision making process etc. Not ONE person in actual authority protested or tried to stop what was going on, whch was ridiculous bullshit. Just part of an 'all authority is evil' fantasy.
Frankly, what you say there just shows a lack of understanding. There was virtually NO authority conflict and consequence. If you are saying there was you are just plain wrong.
Don't tell me I have a lack of understanding thank you. I understood everything fine and dandy. I just didn't get the same feeling as you and it was not a negative for me.
I saw Johnson the same way but for me she gradually moved away from that towards the end. I don't see it as insane wanting her in the Torchwood team. From what I've read online too, quite a lot would not mind her in the team at all. Especially Lois too.
You don't 'gradually move away' from being a callous murderer. It doesn;t work ike that.
And if you post like you didn't understand, I'll tell you that. What you say is evidently wrong. Wanting a cold blooded evil killer in the team is idiotic, and completely wrong. How the hell can you find such a character in any way even vaguely desirable? That would make me worry about you as a person. That there are other idiots does not excuse that.
When Jack's daughter beged her not to harm her child because he was only a child, she said back "So?"
It is meant to be a show about GOOD GUYS. Suddenly people want to forget about that juast because she was sleek and people like a woman with guns. Suddenly all her horiffic crimes are forgiven just so you can see her on the team without feeling morally queasy; let's just pretend all of that stuff never hapepned, eh?. It's contemptible. Good God almighty, the mentality of some people REALLY worries me.
All the more amazing that you complain about a momentary glimpse of a naked man, but are fine with a multiple murderer escaping all the justice she deserves, and more than that being rewarded with a place on the good guy roster (of an organisation that SHE destroyed).
It is things like this that make me despiar about the viewing public. This is as straightforward a point about the lack of consequence as it could possibly be. Her deserved consequence is that she goes to jail for life for the absolutely incontrovertibly evil murder of tyhe doctor, before we even get onto everything else she did in support of evil people.
Put her on the team... f**k me...
...seriously? Someone thinks that Johnson (that was her name? I don't recall ever catching it) should be on the team?
She's the definition of cold-hearted and callous. Only once does she vaguely show that she's got anything resembling a conscience...and it only takes a few moments to destroy that illusion. Why would anyone want her anywhere near Torchwood? And for that matter, why would the remains of the team want her? There's no reason.
I can't deny that this was very well done and well written even if there were things that didn't sit right (I also think it strange that none of the officials had any disagreement beyond "it might personally affect me". Disgusting...). But it was still...well, Ush said it was too grim, and I agree. Still excellent, though. Why couldn't it have been written this well from the start?
And I just wonder what they can do now, if there's another season. I mean,
Spoiler:
the only people left is Gwen, who's about to have a kid. Ianto's dead, Tosh and Owen are dead, Jack's fun off to who knows where, and they really painted him in a poor light. What now?
Yea, dunno where its gonna go from here, but not a terrible way to go out if you must.
The lack of moral objections, by anyone, really grated on me.
There was no moral argument within the authority, like Ush said, but sort of absolute moral authority was rampant on all sides.
Although I think the political consequences for the individuals involved were more implied, the way I read it, the PM and UNIT and stuff were still dealt with, RTD just didn't feel the need to show it.
Ann oversight possibly, but I don't think that it was supposed to not happen.
Yeah, I was hoping SOMEONE in charge would go 'What, are we really doing this, you sick bastards?' Even the American General, who initially stomped in and said 'Wow, you guys are really doing this wrong' then caved and supported the 'gather up the children' plan.
Good five episodes, though. If it has to end here, I'm good. I could picture them having Gwen start up a new team or something, but... eh.
All the more amazing that you complain about a momentary glimpse of a naked man, but are fine with a multiple murderer escaping all the justice she deserves, and more than that being rewarded with a place on the good guy roster (of an organisation that SHE destroyed).
For the second time, I was not serious or complaining. A naked man doesn't bother me, I didn't seem to complain about Captain Jack did I who was on the screen naked for a long time, even frontal nudity...
I didn't catch how many people Johnson killed in her past? I only saw her kill that Doctor this whole week. Her team failed to kill the people of Torchwood.
That Doctor killed the Chinese man to get Jack to the hospital, hardly an innocent she killed.
The lack of moral objections, by anyone, really grated on me.
There was no moral argument within the authority, like Ush said, but sort of absolute moral authority was rampant on all sides.
I'm not disagreeing with you guys on that direction. I just liked the fact that it worked in relation to Gwen talking about the Doctor and shame. I can miss the fact that no one stood up in government.
We would never know how our government would actually act if the exact same thing happened.
Although I think the political consequences for the individuals involved were more implied, the way I read it, the PM and UNIT and stuff were still dealt with, RTD just didn't feel the need to show it.
Ann oversight possibly, but I don't think that it was supposed to not happen.
That's closer to my thoughts.
I have some questions about episode four.
How could 456 released a airborne virus while locked in a sealed chamber similar to laboratory's dealing with dangerous viruses?
What was the point of Jack and Co taking potshots at which was bound to be toughen glass. Why not just open the door to the chamber?
And one odd thing stood out the most, why did 456 need a government to do its dirty work for them? 456 has shown it can controls the children so why did it not go all the way?
The final episode was a bit of a let down due to RTD writing it. Apart from all that I said, yes this was a better story and over all a mark improvement of the past.
So TW is up in the air at the moment with a big question mark hanging over it. Will it return?
Originally posted by MildPossession
I didn't catch how many people Johnson killed in her past? I only saw her kill that Doctor this whole week. Her team failed to kill the people of Torchwood.
Yeah, and did you forget all of the things she did in her attempts to do so? And everything else she did?
Spoiler:
Killed the doctor to trap Jack. Killed Jack twice. Planted a bomb in him to attempt to wipe out the Hub and the entire team. Buried him alive in cement. Attempted, many times, to kill Gwen and Ianto. Took Alice and Stephen hostage in an attempt to get Jack to keep quiet and give in. Shot Decker in the leg because he was talking. Did not care at all when Alice told her to leave her son alone because he was only a child.
And yes, that's just what we saw her do. However, someone does not become that despicable overnight. She didn't just wake up on the morning of day one and go "Oh, I think I'm going to murder some people and generally act like I have no conscience whatsoever." She's been doing that sort of thing for a long time.
She may have ultimately seen what the right thing to do was, but her methods remained the same as ever, hence it didn't really redeem her at all.
And no, it was only the "fat naked man" you had a problem with seeing. Don't deny you did, you wouldn't have brought up not wanting to see it twice if it wasn't something you had an issue with. "I didn't complain about naked Jack" doesn't really cut it because quite frankly, I haven't seen anyone, anywhere complain about that. Basically, grow up.
And one odd thing stood out the most, why did 456 need a government to do its dirty work for them? 456 has shown it can controls the children so why did it not go all the way?
I'm thinking that the amount of control it could exert over the kids was limited. Making them stand still, say simple phrases, scream, but that's about it. Maybe if they'd taken more time they could have done it. After all, it took them a few repetitions to make the kids say "we are coming".
And no, it was only the "fat naked man" you had a problem with seeing. Don't deny you did, you wouldn't have brought up not wanting to see it twice if it wasn't something you had an issue with.
Oh it was done in jest because the usual crap we get is people complaining about the gay elements. My ... after a sentence is usually jokey on message boards from me if you look around. Lighten up.
🙂
What was the point of Jack and Co taking potshots at which was bound to be toughen glass. Why not just open the door to the chamber?
Jack would have been the only person able to go in though, don't know how long he would last before getting knocked out, that man who went into the tank needed protection because of the atmosphere. Might have taken too long to open the door, wasn't it computer controlled and decided to try the glass.
On Agent Johnson if the writers don't put her in prison for what she did, what about if she helps get Torchwood back to how it was and helps the guys who are left as a form of self punishment/atonement type, the other actual word I want isn't coming into my head.
Forgiveness is wonderful.
A calm debate/answer would be nice instead of biting my head off again after bringing her up a few posts back...
I still don't see it working. Even with Gwen tending to lean towards being overly-forgiving as it is. There's a point where expecting forgiveness is just ridiculous, and the things she did were just far too heinous for anyone to even vaguely entertain the idea.
If Torchwood ever did anything to her, it'd be to lock her up in one of their cells. That's it.
To be clear- if people like Johnson as a character, I don't mind if she evades her karma and is in future episodes, I am just very against this idea that she should be forgiven AND rewarded, as if her evil actions were just larking around. Forgiveness is great, sure, but this wasn't littering. The forgiven murderer still serves his sentence. And Torchwood is a morally grey area- Owen was drug-raping people (effectively) and Jack himself is joining the Doctor-angst club with the deal with the aliens and the children etc. But there's a limit- what tv.tropes calls the 'moral event horizon', which once you've gone past you are no longer a misunderstood grey angst anti-hero, but just a plain villain. Decent villains are important in any setting, so long as you remember they are villains.
Anyway, all of that constituted my only reservations. We're all agreed that it was very good stuff and certainly the best stuff Torchwood ever did, and big thumbs up to RTD (who many thought couldn't write anything like this).
All of this plays into my "Chris Chibnall is rubbish" theory. Both his Doctor Who and his Torwhcoowd stories, whilst not abysmal, have always been painfully average. He was the lead writer on Torchwood seasons 1 and 2. He left at the end of 2. Suddenly it gets better. A-ha!
(Meanwhile- indeed, they should have just opened the darn door...)