Link vs. Sonic

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2 of those are debunked by cutscene. The latter is debunked by, well, you.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't remember that being my argument. I remember Occam's Razor coming into play a lot more than your summary shows.

My explanation is still the simpler one, by the way. 😎

Simple answer: Lightning = Lightning.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Wut? The Cutscene of non-lightning being faster than the player can see disproves the speed of lightning?

No. The cutscene where a non-lightning attack that takes a ton of time to charge up while Young Link is looking dead at it and then said attack hitting him in the face proves his reaction is for shit.

And the simplest answer to the Ganondorf fight was PIS/CIS but for some reason it can't be applied to Ganondorf like it can, say, Sephiroth, who has a truly lovely display of CIS.

No. The cutscene where a non-lightning attack that takes a ton of time to charge up while Young Link is looking dead at it and then said attack hitting him in the face proves his reaction is for shit.

And the simplest answer to the Ganondorf fight was PIS/CIS but for some reason it can't be applied to Ganondorf like it can, say, Sephiroth, who has a truly lovely display of CIS.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You mean [b]before he got the ToC?

Seph has canon CIS. 😐 Entirely different. Ganondorf doesn't have Miyamoto reminding us he refuses to go all out on Link because he's egotistical like Seph has for Cloud. It's entirely illogical and stupid for him to intentionally slow his own attack using magic. [/B]

😆

The ToC gives Link super reaction timing skills? When the hell did Courage consist of that? baka

lol okay then. How come Mewtwo, when Ash released all the original Pokemon from the 1st Movie, didn't just casually mind wipe all of them that second? Or break their necks with a mere thought?

How come Xemnas didn't just TK that machine to stop Ansem from destroying Kingdom Hearts?

How come Bowser didn't just wish Mario out of existence with the Star Wand?

How come Ultimecia didn't just kill Squall when she had the chance?

How come Kratos, who gets the power to time travel, doesn't just travel back to the instant before he killed his family and spare himself a lot of trouble?

CIS. Ganondorf is not immune to something that occurs in tons of games. Hell, if I had any knowledge of Zelda besides what little I have, I guarantee I could find another instance of it. In fact, if Link is such a threat to Ganondorf, why the hell didn't he kill Toon Link when he stabbed him with the unshiny MS?

The ToC gives Link super reaction timing skills? When the hell did Courage consist of that?

Ganondorf is not immune to something that occurs in tons of games. Hell, if I had any knowledge of Zelda besides what little I have, I guarantee I could find another instance of it. In fact, if Link is such a threat to Ganondorf, why the hell didn't he kill Toon Link when he stabbed him with the unshiny MS?

And "I magicly slow down my own lightning" is a new level of CIS. haermm An illogical, and /assumed/ level.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He receives the ToC because he's courageous, it does not give him courage.
For one, Link was rescued by Valoo, for two, Ganon shows an unwillingness to kill children in WW, but not defeat them. He infact beats the crap out of Link and KO's him taking the ToC from him in WW. CIS /does/ happen later when he waits to touch the Triforce, but Ganon's actual fighting ability's never suffered from it.

And "I magicly slow down my own lightning" is a new level of CIS. haermm An illogical, and /assumed/ level.

And it increases his abilities where again? I desire proof that it increases reaction time.

Being unwilling to kill children makes Ganon seem nicer than he actually is. Here's a nice bit of CIS I found:

YouTube video

9:00 to 9:21.

Why? Why would he do that? Doing that makes me completely assume Ganondorf is retarded and does in fact succumb to CIS.

Just because you believe it is a "new" level of CIS does not mean it doesn't fit. We've taken the appearance, sound, damage capability, effects on the room, everything we can from those little balls to prove our points so I say we take the speed just as it is because both its appearance and speed are gameplay and both just as valid as the other.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
lol okay then. How come Mewtwo, when Ash released all the original Pokemon from the 1st Movie, didn't just casually mind wipe all of them that second? Or break their necks with a mere thought?

He wanted to prove a point, namely, the superiority of the clones in general. He let the clones take care of their counterparts, and was admittedly distracted by Mew.

Better question would be why he didn't wipe Giovanni and instead chose to surrender in the second movie.

How come Bowser didn't just wish Mario out of existence with the Star Wand?

To humiliate him and celebrate an actual victory. But then, Bowser's a moron canonically. Seriously, he asks Princess Peach what Mario hates and will scatter mushrooms and healing items around if she tells him Mario hates them. Mario. Hating mushrooms.

Bowser has a legitimate Villain Ball at nearly all times.

How come Ultimecia didn't just kill Squall when she had the chance?

Pretty sure she did, if you mean stabbing him in the heart with an icicle isn't trying? Didn't play the game, though, so you might be referring to something else...

CIS. Ganondorf is not immune to something that occurs in tons of games. Hell, if I had any knowledge of Zelda besides what little I have, I guarantee I could find another instance of it. In fact, if Link is such a threat to Ganondorf, why the hell didn't he kill Toon Link when he stabbed him with the unshiny MS?

He did try to kill Toon Link, but was distracted by Tetra, and then was preoccupied when he found out she had a piece of the Triforce. To Ganondorf, GET TRIFORCE > Kill hero.

The thing about CIS is that it's a consistent character trait. For it to be CIS, they have to be acting in character. For the above, only the Bowser example is CIS, since Bowser is consistently portrayed as an idiot or otherwise incompetent. The rest are PIS, someone acting out of character for the sake of the plot. Or, at least, that's how I define them. Unless it's in Ganondorf's character to slow down his shots, something like that would be PIS.

EDIT: As for that video, I find it unreasonable to conclude that Ganondorf is stupid because Link survived being tossed several miles over the horizon and into the ocean.

EDIT 2: In fact, if the boat hadn't saved him, Link would indeed have drowned.

Originally posted by The Scenario
He did try to kill Toon Link, but was distracted by Tetra, and then was preoccupied when he found out she had a piece of the Triforce. To Ganondorf, GET TRIFORCE > Kill hero.

The thing about CIS is that it's a consistent character trait. For it to be CIS, they have to be acting in character. For the above, only the Bowser example is CIS, since Bowser is consistently portrayed as an idiot or otherwise incompetent. The rest are PIS, someone acting out of character for the sake of the plot. Or, at least, that's how I define them. Unless it's in Ganondorf's character to slow down his shots, something like that would be PIS.

EDIT: As for that video, I find it unreasonable to conclude that Ganondorf is stupid because Link survived being tossed several miles over the horizon and into the ocean.

EDIT 2: In fact, if the boat hadn't saved him, Link would indeed have drowned.

Ganondorf wants the full Triforce right? Then why did he toss Link miles away when he had him in his hands? He needs the triforce from him doesn't he? Why not just keep him prisoner? If he escapes, he still can't get very far without a big owl catching up to him. Why kill him, miles away where its not possible to even get the triforce from him (if he had it, I don't know if he did or not). If he didn't have it, keep the kid prisoner until he gets it and then kill him then.

I consider it PIS when the plot itself does something completely stupid. CIS is not a trait that I consider consistent but rather something that affects the moment. It can be consistent but does not have to be. Ganon's obsession with power is indeed a mark of CIS because it ignores simple logic that getting the Full Triforce gives Link a chance to become stronger so just kill him now and be content with the power you have. He's obsession with power can also be applied to the orb attack. Very powerful, but very slow.

Didn't read how the other thread ended but don't tell me its being continued here ¬__¬

Chaos control = forget the speed thing.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ganondorf wants the full Triforce right? Then why did he toss Link miles away when he had him in his hands? He needs the triforce from him doesn't he? Why not just keep him prisoner? If he escapes, he still can't get very far without a big owl catching up to him. Why kill him, miles away where its not possible to even get the triforce from him (if he had it, I don't know if he did or not). If he didn't have it, keep the kid prisoner until he gets it and then kill him then.

Yeah, Link didn't have the Triforce of Courage at that point, but thing is, in Wind Waker, Link does not recieve it naturally. According to backstory, when the Hero of Time (OoT Link) left Hyrule, the Triforce of Corage was split into 8 pieces and hidden away. In Wind Waker, Link actually has to find the pieces, and does not recieve it just by being courageous. Assuming Ganondorf knew that Courage was broken (he seemed to that Wisdom was in 2 pieces) there'd be no reason to let Link live except to let him find it. Ganondorf does try to kill Link multiple times, though, as he was looking for Triforce of Courage on his own.

I consider it PIS when the plot itself does something completely stupid. CIS is not a trait that I consider consistent but rather something that affects the moment. It can be consistent but does not have to be. Ganon's obsession with power is indeed a mark of CIS because it ignores simple logic that getting the Full Triforce gives Link a chance to become stronger so just kill him now and be content with the power you have. He's obsession with power can also be applied to the orb attack. Very powerful, but very slow.

I'll agree that Ganondorf's obssession with the Triforce is CIS, as it's a consistent part of his character. I usually remember CIS as, say, Batman's refusal to kill. PIS would be Batman forgetting about his utility belt or something when it would have been useful. Again, I consider CIS to be a consistency in the character, and PIS as an inconsistency, at least in regard to characters.

And I don't know that Ganondorf would intentionally slow down an attack when he's actually going for the kill.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Wut? The Cutscene of non-lightning being faster than the player can see disproves the speed of lightning? Your misuse of Occam's Razor was hilarious, but not a valid argument. "Ganon invented a new, less useful attack on the spot." <--Requires Ganon to sabotage himself.

Simple answer: Lightning = Lightning.

No, simpler answer is Ganon makes amagic ball with some flashy effects and it is slow because the developers don't have to take into account previous versions of Ganon.

More complex answer is ganon is using fully lightning, but it doesn't look like lightning, it looks like a ball, and it's moving as fast as lightning but time slows down even though there is absolutely no indication of this.

I'm not assuming anything outside of what we see on the screen. YOU are assuming a vast amount of things that are not seen, or mentioned, or even suggested in the game at any point. And for this reason, my explanation will always be simpler and always be the more logical. Unless you can show it is impossible. The same line of reasoning can be applied to Link's invulnerable skin.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He receives the ToC because he's courageous, it does not give him courage.

Yeah, I'm with AuraAngel here, you need to back up the idea that Link gets super reaction time from the Triforce. I see no indication it gives him ANY new powers at all.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yeah, Link didn't have the Triforce of Courage at that point, but thing is, in Wind Waker, Link does not recieve it naturally. According to backstory, when the Hero of Time (OoT Link) left Hyrule, the Triforce of Corage was split into 8 pieces and hidden away. In Wind Waker, Link actually has to find the pieces, and does not recieve it just by being courageous. Assuming Ganondorf knew that Courage was broken (he seemed to that Wisdom was in 2 pieces) there'd be no reason to let Link live except to let him find it. Ganondorf does try to kill Link multiple times, though, as he was looking for Triforce of Courage on his own.

So he was looking for it anyone? Even less of a reason to not kill him then and there. Or keep him prisoner on the off-chance that he could help find the pieces.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'll agree that Ganondorf's obssession with the Triforce is CIS, as it's a consistent part of his character. I usually remember CIS as, say, Batman's refusal to kill. PIS would be Batman forgetting about his utility belt or something when it would have been useful. Again, I consider CIS to be a consistency in the character, and PIS as an inconsistency, at least in regard to characters.

And I don't know that Ganondorf would intentionally slow down an attack when he's actually going for the kill.

I use a different method. CIS to me is when a character chooses not to do the simplest thing they could do in favor of a more stupid action. Like, Sora choosing to fight people instead of just getting Genie to make everyone he fights disappear. PIS is when believing in the heart of the cards gives you the right card at the right time that completely turns things around.

I also don't know why Ganondorf wouldn't point his finger at Zelda and say to Link "Drop the ****ing sword or I'll rip her head off." Again, he doesn't need to be thinking of speed, just teh powah behind his attack.

Not that it matters. If we take appearance from gameplay, we'll take speed. All's fair in love and KMC anyway. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
[B]So he was looking for it anyone? Even less of a reason to not kill him then and there. Or keep him prisoner on the off-chance that he could help find the pieces.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Link didn't have the Triforce of Courage, so Ganondorf tried to kill him by having the bird toss him. The only stupid thing is how ridiculously durable toon Link is.

More complex answer is ganon is using fully lightning,

Yeah, I'm with AuraAngel here, you need to back up the idea that Link gets super reaction time from the Triforce. I see no indication it gives him ANY new powers at all.

YouTube video

The source of Link's sudden massive-jump in capabilities revealed. 😐 7:09

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Link didn't have the Triforce of Courage, so Ganondorf tried to kill him by having the bird toss him. The only stupid thing is how ridiculously durable toon Link is.

1. This is not Ganon's first rodeo with someone blonde and a desire to dress in green. Last person he fought like that would have been perfectly capable of taking that toss. Why not simply choke him?

2. Said people that he has encountered that were blonde and dressed in green did in fact have the triforce of courage. Why let him out of your sight on the off chance that he may find it while at the same time growing strong enough to kill you?

3. Look at how logical it would have been to keep him. Said blonde boy who wears green may prove useful in finding pieces of the ToC. Slim chance but we know people like that tend to have a connection to it. If you're not willing to kill your enemy with your own hands, you keep them as close as possible and as weak as possible. You do not give them a chance to become a threat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. This is not Ganon's first rodeo with someone blonde and a desire to dress in green. Last person he fought like that would have been perfectly capable of taking that toss. Why not simply choke him?

2. Said people that he has encountered that were blonde and dressed in green did in fact have the triforce of courage. Why let him out of your sight on the off chance that he may find it while at the same time growing strong enough to kill you?

3. Look at how logical it would have been to keep him. Said blonde boy who wears green may prove useful in finding pieces of the ToC. Slim chance but we know people like that tend to have a connection to it. If you're not willing to kill your enemy with your own hands, you keep them as close as possible and as weak as possible. You do not give them a chance to become a threat.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganon made no error here, the best solution is to get Link out of the way before he becomes a threat, which is what he meant to do. Most people without a section of the triforce would have died just from being thrown. Ganon's own power at this point is massively limmited, and the Bird already had Link in it's mouth, it was the easiest, most convenient kill which didn't get Ganon's hands dirty.

Actually the easiest, most convenient kill would have been to say, "Lunch time" while I lol at pure awesome. But instead we get Ganondorf throwing away someone who resembles people who have foiled him several times in the past without making sure he was dead.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Negative. What you fail to understand is for lightning to not move at lightning speed [b]requires Ganon to magicly restrict it. That is not the simplest answer and requires Ganondorf to sabotage himself, something he's never done. That is a bad assumption which you cannot back up with any facts at all.

YouTube video

The source of Link's sudden massive-jump in capabilities revealed. 😐 7:09 [/B]

Every time a character chooses not to use the easiest means to rid themselves of an enemy they are in fact being stupid. Ganondorf has done this before, as have most end bosses.

Massive jumps where again? Durability I'll grant you but the rest I'm not seeing. Kindly point out Link's power.

Pretty sure she did, if you mean stabbing him in the heart with an icicle isn't trying? Didn't play the game, though, so you might be referring to something else...

In Dissidia she had him in a legitimate and complete timestop, walked right up to him and then just choose to use an attack that wouldn't come into effect until after the timestop, when she could easily have just snapped his ****ing neck or stabbed him with his own gunblade and won the fight with ease.

Classic PIS.

@Scream

Wut? The Cutscene of non-lightning being faster than the player can see disproves the speed of lightning?

Except it isn't. It clearly moves into the camera. It isn't faster than teh eye can see.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In Dissidia she had him in a legitimate and complete timestop, walked right up to him and then just choose to use an attack that wouldn't come into effect until after the timestop, when she could easily have just snapped his ****ing neck or stabbed him with his own gunblade and won the fight with ease.

Classic PIS.

@Scream

Except it isn't. It clearly moves into the camera. It isn't faster than teh eye can see.

I was actually referring to FF8 itself. Didn't after stabbing Squall she keep him hostage for some reason? I know Seifer had him chained up.

Oh, well that wasn't PIS. They thought he had information that they wanted, the defences of the Gardens etc, which Seifer didn't know because he never actually became a real SEED.