Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are you going to Heaven or Hell?
Originally posted by JacopeX
I see, but the only thing that I dont belive is the reincarnation. If you go to heaven or hell, yo ustay there for all and eternity.To wrap this all up for me, I donno whether im goin to heaven or Hell. I guess god knows my right destiny.
Destiny contradicts Free Will, which is what your religion teaches. You seem to have such a minimal understanding of beleifs in the supernatural, and an even more limitted understanding of your own religion ❌
Oh, and for the LAST TIME, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HELL ! NOBODY IS !
What did you ever do to deserve Eternal Torment ? What did you ever do to deserve being burnt in agony for all eternity, or torture of ANY KIND ?
Do you TRULY beleive from the bottom of your little heart, that a God who LOVES you, your spiritual father who is supposed to love you more than anybody, would send you to HELL, to ETERNAL SUFFERING, for ANY REASON whatsoever ?
This whole Christian concept that ANYONE deserves torture is fkn ABSURD and one of the biggest reasons why I turned away from this LIE. I suggest you re evaluate your beleifs, your life, and find out WHAT do you truly beleive ?
Originally posted by Lord UrizenUsage of codes, usage of smilies, usage of obscene language, usage of insults, usage of capitalisation to show you are shouting.
[b]Destiny contradicts Free Will, which is what your religion teaches. You seem to have such a minimal understanding of beleifs in the supernatural, and an even more limitted understanding of your own religion ❌Oh, and for the LAST TIME, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HELL ! NOBODY IS !
What did you ever do to deserve Eternal Torment ? What did you ever do to deserve being burnt in agony for all eternity, or torture of ANY KIND ?
Do you TRULY beleive from the bottom of your little heart, that a God who LOVES you, your spiritual father who is supposed to love you more than anybody, would send you to HELL, to ETERNAL SUFFERING, for ANY REASON whatsoever ?
This whole Christian concept that ANYONE deserves torture is fkn ABSURD and one of the biggest reasons why I turned away from this LIE. I suggest you re evaluate your beleifs, your life, and find out WHAT do you truly beleive ? [/B]
All great ways to piss off whomever you quoted. Something intelligent debators do not do.
No one can speak for God - and truly say where they are going. The same fate that awaits those who consider themselves "righteous" -- is the same fate that awaits those considered "sinners." All will be held accountable before God at some point. But being that God is a loving - righteous - and merciful judge, and having faith in Christ - I have faith that his sacrafice is enough to atone for any righteous judgement I'm deserving of.
To believe that oneself is going to hell is a poor state, it is resigning oneself to behaviors that one believes are inappropriate. One always has control over one's own behaviors if there is option available, albeit it may take time to shift one's behaviors from an inappropriate pattern to a more appropriate pattern. It is all dependant on what one finds, or chooses to find, to be reinforcing.
Originally posted by grey fox
IF there is such a thing as Hell then there is a fair chance I'll be going there.
Whatever a man thinketh - so it will be. So think positive, confess your sins to Christ, and have faith in his sacrifice. His will alone is enough to keep one from going into hell. And he has already made the provisions for all of us to be with him, so truly there is nothing to fear - but fear itself.
Originally posted by Regret
To believe that oneself is going to hell is a poor state, it is resigning oneself to behaviors that one believes are inappropriate. One always has control over one's own behaviors if there is option available, albeit it may take time to shift one's behaviors from an inappropriate pattern to a more appropriate pattern. It is all dependant on what one finds, or chooses to find, to be reinforcing.
But don't forget, our behaviour(good or bad) has little impact on Christ's sacrifice. You are getting into a Legalistic viewpoint when you present this information in such a fashion. Having faith in Christ's sacrifice(and believing in his diety) is the first step in the matter, and the next is repentence of one's sins. When we have faith in this sacrifice and in Christ, he who now dwells within us - will truly free us from the bondage of sin - and will produce *good works* through us.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboWho are you to tell him what to do?
Whatever a man thinketh - so it will be. So think positive, confess your sins to Christ, and have faith in his sacrifice. His will alone is enough to keep one from going into hell. And he has already made the provisions for all of us to be with him, so truly there is nothing to fear - but fear itself.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboWhich only works if you believe. If you believe, you behave in the manner you describe, in some part, because you believe by doing such you will be going to heaven. Faith is a hope for things unseen which are true, by Biblical verse, faith in Christ is hoping that you are going to heaven, it is believing you are going to heaven if you behave properly. My statements fall directly in line with this, I forgot nothing, if you do not believe you are going to heaven, regardless of what is required to get there, you do not have faith. You will not believe in Christ and then repent if you do not believe that doing such will get you into heaven. Faith is the first principle of Christ's Gospel as presented in the Bible, you must have faith, or rather, by virtue of the Bible's definition of faith, a hope, that it is right to behave in accordance with his teachings before you will behave in accordance with those teachings.
But don't forget, our behaviour(good or bad) has little impact on Christ's sacrifice. You are getting into a Legalistic viewpoint when you present this information in such a fashion. Having faith in Christ's sacrifice(and believing in his diety) is the first step in the matter, and the next is repentence of one's sins. When we have faith in this sacrifice and in Christ, he who now dwells within us - will truly free us from the bondage of sin - and will produce *good works* through us.
Also, my words were not addressing only those that are Christian, but the broad spectrum audience that reads postings on this forum. As such, I was not referencing any belief in particular as to method of achieving heaven, I was referencing the individual and their personal belief of their own position as to whether they were going to heaven or hell. Regardless of the person's religious affiliation, their belief of themselves going to hell is a statement as to their views on the propriety of their own actions. If one believes one's own actions are improper, one should not behave in such a manner, if one believes that one's own actions are proper, one must believe that one is going to heaven if such exists.
This concept has nothing to do with religious affiliation, only with the individual's own perception of their position with regard to heaven and hell. The question does not address whether you live a proper Christian lifestyle, and does not even address whether one is entering a Christian heaven. For purposes of this discussion, it could be assumed you were entering Nirvana, Elysium, Olympus, becoming one with Brahman, Christian Heaven, etc. it does not necessitate any particular system or reference.
I did not enter a legalistic viewpoint. I stated that if one believes they are going to hell, they should alter their behavior such that it matches what they believe is required to enter their heaven.
Originally posted by Regret
Which only works if you believe. If you believe, you behave in the manner you describe, in some part, because you believe by doing such you will be going to heaven.
It is true -- that many do believe that they will go into *heaven* based on their works, however, this belief is a direct contradiction to what Christ teaches. Our *works* are not what get us into heaven - it is our belief in Christ, and his sacrifice - and his overall mercy on us as sinners that does this.
Originally posted by Regret
Faith in Christ is hoping that you are going to heaven, it is believing you are going to heaven if you behave properly.
You are grossly incorrect about this. *Faith* in Christ has nothing to do with the way we behave, it has to do with the grace that Christ imparts upon an individual -- after believing in his sacrifice. If we do not attempt to repent after such loving grace is extended to us - then we never truly had *faith* or love for Christ to begin with. True *faith* and love(in Christ) produces *good works* within us. However - the most important part of this equation is to always remember -- that it is the Holy Spirit(sent by Christ) that indwells within us that is producing these *good works* - not our *good works* producing the Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by Regret
My statements fall directly in line with this, I forgot nothing, if you do not believe you are going to heaven, regardless of what is required to get there, you do not have faith.
You forgot - or perhaps misunderstood, that works do not produce *faith*. It is *faith*(in Christ), and the Holy Spirit that indwells within us - that produces the works. The other part of your argument I am in agreement with. One indeed does have to have *faith* in Christ(and his sacrifice) - in order to go to heaven. As I am not trying to win a debate, I am not going to continue to reply to the rest of your post - as it had little to do with this argument. I just wanted to clarify with you about the incorrectness of the position you hold. It has been a pleasure speaking with you.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
It is true -- that many do believe that they will go into *heaven* based on their works, however, this belief is a direct contradiction to what Christ teaches. Our *works* are not what get us into heaven - it is our belief in Christ, and his sacrifice - and his overall mercy on us as sinners that does this.
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 16:27Christ's words. Every man will be rewarded according to his works.
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
In Christianity, man cannot do it on his own, this is true. No man will get into Heaven by his works, only by the grace of God through faith, lest any man boast. But, no man will make it into Heaven without good works either.
Heb. 11: 1What exactly do you believe faith in Christ is? Faith in Christ is a hope that what he taught was true, the behaviors he taught we should keep were proper. Faith, given that without works faith is dead, by the works that accompany it is the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not evidence unless the works are present. Faith, by Biblical definition, is not faith without works.
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I just wanted to clarify with you about the incorrectness of the position you hold.
Originally posted by Regret
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.In Christianity, man cannot do it on his own, this is true. No man will get into Heaven by his works, only by the grace of God through faith, lest any man boast. But, no man will make it into Heaven without good works either.
Again - you are misinterpreting the scripture. The faith is indeed justified by works -- but the works, do not produce the faith. One can do many works - however, if they have no *faith* in Christ's sacrifice - these works mean nothing. Likewise - one can claim to have much *faith* in Christ - however, their *faith* is not real--or as James puts it -- their faith is "dead" -- if no *works* are the byproduct of this *faith*. *Faith* in Christ - is always the starting point, and the works are used as the justifying aspect of the *faith*.
And once again -- we do not perform these works ourselves - it is the Holy Spirit given to us by Christ, that performs these works for us(and removes the bondage of sin from us). This is done - as Christ has stated - so that no man can "boast" about his works getting him into heaven, and because all of our best works - are considered "filthy rags" before almighty God.
We are to always be humble, and to always understand - that ultimately, it is Christ's decision(and sacrifice) that allows us the opportunity to get into heaven, and nothing that we have done - or ever will do with(or without) the assistance of the Holy Spirit can get us there.
Originally posted by Regret
What exactly do you believe faith in Christ is? Faith in Christ is a hope that what he taught was true, the behaviors he taught we should keep were proper. Faith, given that without works faith is dead, by the works that accompany it is the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not evidence unless the works are present. Faith, by Biblical definition, is not faith without works.I just wanted to clarify with you about the incorrectness of the position you hold.
Faith in Christ is not just about how *proper* one acts. It's about showing *love* to other people, even to those who do not act *proper*. When Christ came to earth -- he came for all sinners, not just for those who act a certain way, or just for those who have their robes clean on the outside, but are completely vile and grimy on the inside.
I apologize if you have taken any offense to what I have stated - but you are preaching a very un-Christ like doctrine - reminiscent of the scribes and Pharisees, and I truly hope you come to the understanding
that Christ's Love was not just demonstrated so that man can exalt himself and act *proper* -- it was given so that man can understand how to be truly loving - and share this love with his creator.
I have very little desire to engage you in circular argumentation - so I will let this be my final post on the topic. Again if you took offense to the way anything was presented - I do apologize.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboNo offense taken. Error is not offensive, it is saddening. Perhaps someday you will understand your errors, as well as giving up your pride.
Again - you are misinterpreting the scripture. The faith is indeed justified by works -- but the works, do not produce the faith. One can do many works - however, if they have no *faith* in Christ's sacrifice - these works mean nothing. Likewise - one can claim to have much *faith* in Christ - however, their *faith* is not real--or as James puts it -- their faith is "dead" -- if no *works* are the byproduct of this *faith*. *Faith* in Christ - is always the starting point, and the works are used as the justifying aspect of the *faith*.And once again -- we do not perform these works ourselves - it is the Holy Spirit given to us by Christ, that performs these works for us(and removes the bondage of sin from us). This is done - as Christ has stated - so that no man can "boast" about his works getting him into heaven, and because all of our best works - are considered "filthy rags" before almighty God.
We are to always be humble, and to always understand - that ultimately, it is Christ's decision(and sacrifice) that allows us the opportunity to get into heaven, and nothing that we have done - or ever will do with(or without) the assistance of the Holy Spirit can get us there.
Faith in Christ is not just about how *proper* one acts. It's about showing *love* to other people, even to those who do not act *proper*. When Christ came to earth -- he came for all sinners, not just for those who act a certain way, or just for those who have their robes clean on the outside, but are completely vile and grimy on the inside.
I apologize if you have taken any offense to what I have stated - but you are preaching a very un-Christ like doctrine - reminiscent of the scribes and Pharisees, and I truly hope you come to the understanding
that Christ's Love was not just demonstrated so that man can exalt himself and act *proper* -- it was given so that man can understand how to be truly loving - and share this love with his creator.I have very little desire to engage you in circular argumentation - so I will let this be my final post on the topic. Again if you took offense to the way anything was presented - I do apologize.