God Cable vs. Shaman X-Man...?

Originally posted by demigawd
To further clarify my remarks, Nathan Summers, while I understand your point that they're portrayed as being "the same person", that belief is illogical (Marvel's fault, not yours). Cable and Nate should have no more in common than you and your brother. In fact, they should have less in common, because Cable is the naturally conceived son of Cyclops and a clone of Jean Grey (and clones aren't truly identical) and Nate is the lab clone of Jean and Cyclops from an alternate universe. Genetically speaking, Nate Grey has more in common with Rachael than Cable. Either way, there's no logical way to support the belief that Nate and Cable are the same person. Each sperm has its own unique properties that create entirely different people. There's absolutely no way they came from the exactly same alternate reality drop of sperm, haha.

They're less than twins.

Truth be told were this situation to be compared to real life they'd more than likely be biological twins, if anything.

" Identical twins have identical DNA but differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes are switched on or off. This is called epigenetic modification. A study of 80 pairs of twins ranging in age from 3 to 74 showed that the youngest twins have relatively few epigenetic differences. The number of differences between identical twins increases with age. 50-year-old twins had over 3 times the epigenetic difference that the 3-year-old twins had. Twins who had spent their lives apart (such as those adopted by two different sets of parents at birth) had the greatest difference."

So, yes. From a logical stand point I understand were this the " REAL " world they should differ. But in a world were a man turns into a Hulking Green monster after being bombarded by Gamma Radiation; I'm inclined to stick with the fictional facts of the comics -- which is in fact what the discussion pertains to.

Biological twins have the same DNA because the fertilized egg split. So they have 1/2 of the same everything, which makes Nate and Nate nothing like biological twins. They're even less than fraternal twins - two different eggs and two different sperm, from the same parents, because they didn't share the same pre-natal environment that creates similarities between fraternal twins. They're simply brothers. Just like Rachael.

The only people genetically identical in that messed up family are Cable/Stryfe and Maddie/Jean. No one else shares identical DNA. Epigenetic modification, as you accurately posted, however, would account for significant difference even between Maddie and Jean and Cable and Stryfe.

But you're correct - that's applying too much real world logic to it. Then again, looking at your sources, they haven't said they're the same person in a literal sense. Nate was described in your source as Cable's "counterpart" from AOA - that would just mean "Chosen One son of Scott and some version of Jean with psionic power to destroy Apocalypse". In that sense, they're counterparts. They're also "identical" in their powerset. But it doesn't mean much, genetically speaking.

Originally posted by demigawd
I actually read this after I posted my response. Yes, their powers are identical - they're large scale psionics. I completely agree with that.

That said, AOA Sinister did pretty clearly state that he did some of his own tweaking. We don't really know what exactly that entails, and whether that makes X-man more or less powerful than Cable.

The only thing we really have to go on are feats. Shaman Nate has the better feats, IMO.

You can't really be fair with a feat battle between Nate and Nathan. I mean, Nate did have full access to almost all of his power for 75 issues of his comic.

Cable was hindered by the TO virus for all of his appearances sans 4 or 5 issues of Cable and Deadpool. 4 or 5 issues in which Cable had the power to control the world if he wanted to.

I don't think there is anything Nate could do that Nathan couldn't do if he had tried it.

I think it's absolutely fair - if one is more used to operating at a higher level for longer, then it's a fair point towards the more experienced powerhouse.

Originally posted by 8bitChris
You can't really be fair with a feat battle between Nate and Nathan. I mean, Nate did have full access to almost all of his power for 75 issues of his comic.

Cable was hindered by the TO virus for all of his appearances sans 4 or 5 issues of Cable and Deadpool. 4 or 5 issues in which Cable had the power to control the world if he wanted to.

I don't think there is anything Nate could do that Nathan couldn't do if he had tried it.

Correction. Nathan has had FULL access to his powers since Cable #100 when he purged himself of the techno-organic virus. So he's had use of them from #100-107 which is the end of the Cable series. Then Almost 2-3 years later( continuity-wise ), when Soldier X starts, he's had FULL access to his powers which he's been training himself to use. ( Soldier X #1-12 ).

Don't forget to take into account that X-Man has never had ANY formal training in the use of his powers while Cable has had such instruction both in the future and with Jean Grey. Not to mention he's trained himself in the use of his powers.

Well, we don't exactly know what happened between the time X-Man was Mr. Irresponsible Kid to his becoming some kind of master dimension walking Shaman, but it definitely seemed like he came into his own, powerwise. His top feats were easily as Shaman.

They are brothers.

Rachel is sisters with both of them, but she's no nate. Cable had the luck to be born with REALLY GOOD GENES to make him very powerful at max. Nate was born with THE BEST GENES, since sinsiter did it. That's why shaman edges our jesus.

Originally posted by demigawd
I think it's absolutely fair - if one is more used to operating at a higher level for longer, then it's a fair point towards the more experienced powerhouse.

I still don't think it's fair. I think if Cable had access to his power for the same amount of time that X-man did then, arguably Cable would be better trained and conditioned to use it. He might have had greater feats.

I stand firmly by my notion that there is nothing that X-man could do that Cable could not do.

Cable also outwitted and defeated X-man without full access to his power. With full access to it, I believe X-man would be overwhelmed by Cable's dicipline and versatality with it.

Certainly Cable showed a masterful control of the power when he was trying to be the mesiah.

Originally posted by sam_drugbringer
They are brothers.

Rachel is sisters with both of them, but she's no nate. Cable had the luck to be born with REALLY GOOD GENES to make him very powerful at max. Nate was born with THE BEST GENES, since sinsiter did it. That's why shaman edges our jesus.

Where is the " born with the best genes " comment coming from? Oh wait, I know. Here: http://xman.comicbooks.net/biography.html On the X-Man Homepage. No where in the comic books does it specifically state and I quote;

" He painstakingly combined the proper genetic material to produce the greatest results possible. That product was a boy he named after himself - Nate. Not Cable, but awfully close and even more powerful. "

It only ever appears on this page. I've read through X-Man Minus One, X-Man #1-4 and attempted to find specific comments that learn to this conclusion. I have found not one other than a few cryptic comments which are nothing more than conjecture. If anyone could find a page number in which this comment is backed up, I'd be much obliged. Otherwise, I stand by the concepts I've stated.

x-man does have better feats

DUde, lets say we strip their powers !!! So there just like humans and all.....

THen, WHO would win, a war veteran smoking cigars or a punk kid with tights ???

Cuz in the end, there Shaman and Messiah powers are the SAME LEVEL !!!

Originally posted by 8bitChris
I still don't think it's fair. I think if Cable had access to his power for the same amount of time that X-man did then, arguably Cable would be better trained and conditioned to use it. He might have had greater feats.

Well, yeah, if that's what you were trying to say, then I'd agree - IF Cable had access to his power for the same amount of time X-man did, Cable would be better trained and conditioned to use it.

BUUUUT...he did NOT have access to his power for the same amount of time X-man did, and that makes the difference here.

Shaman Nate (who is faaaar more powerful than regular X-man) reached his potential. And he accomplished more without burning himself out in the process.

Cable, on the other hand, had to do some complicated gene splicing routine with Deadpool to use his healing factor to accomplish a less impressive feat for a shorter period of time...and was burning himself out in the process.

That puts Shaman on a higher level to me.

Cable also outwitted and defeated X-man without full access to his power. With full access to it, I believe X-man would be overwhelmed by Cable's dicipline and versatality with it.

Again, I agree if it's simply standard Nate Grey. But Shaman Nate somehow gained access to an incredible amount of control over his power, and the combat ability to use it casually, without causing any amount of stress on his body.

Certainly Cable showed a masterful control of the power when he was trying to be the mesiah.

Which was designed to be temporary and required an exact alignment of circumstances to pull it off for a limited amount of time.

I see it like this:

Shaman > God Cable > Nate Grey = Stryfe > Regular Cable

just curious demi, where would you put blood-ties exodus and fused legion on that continuum?

mmm...

I go by feats level and scale:

1. Shaman - multidimensional scale power. He has the power to incinerate a planet....and destroyed a country in his sleep. He also raised the dead. He was never taxed in doing this.

2. God Cable - planetary scale power. He was in touch with all minds at once and reconstructed damage at a molecular level. But he was pretty rapidly burning himself out in the process.

3. Nate Grey - planetary scale power. His very existence screwed up the Astral Plane. But he had less training and a failsafe that would kill him if he overexerted. He was also brash and didn't exercise sound judgment (but hell, he's only four years old)

4. Stryfe - feats-wise, I actually see him with less raw power because he's an "impure clone" or somesuch. Part of that is because of more recent jobbing - he ran from Cable like a b!itch, when Cable just had guns. But he makes up for it with ruthlessness and training. So Nate would be Joseph to Stryfe's Magneto.

Now here's where it gets interesting.

Bloodties Exodus was a badass for sure, but I also found him to be somewhat limited. He couldn't put down Sersi definitively and it took him a long time to take down War Machine. A lot of that is poor combat judgment. He has the power, but not really the mindset to use it to its fullest.

Legion, on the other hand, while he didn't show the sheer raw power that Exodus did in Bloodties, had complete mastery of all of his powers, and a greater variety of them, too.

So I'd make Legion 5 and Exodus 6. But Reg X-man, Stryfe, Legion and BT Exodus are pretty damn close IMO. If Legion's other powers operated at a slightly higher scale, I'd have given him odds over Stryfe/X-man.

there was only ONE comic in which a stupid writer says that their powers are IDENTICAL{yes it WAS said} but i can prove that that is bullshit, the writer was stupid. and YES ubpringing can change people with the same dna, but as we know that that change is only in mental development, physically the two offsprings are identical. but the problem is even in POWERS cable and nate are not IDENTICAL

cable has vast telepathic, telekenetic, time warping and reality manipulating powers{along with other psychic powers} AND he also has ENHANCED STRENGTH AND SENSES{and not the techno organic part of him} he ALWAYS had enhanced strength. nate does NOT HAVE enhanced strength or senses, he only has human strength he was born this way UNLIKE CABLE, this should prove without a shadow of a doubt that they are NOT identical, and ALSO, cable is 6feat five inches in height, nate is only 5 feat 10 inches, hence they are not even physically identical, they DO have some facial resemblence comparing classic nate to cable in SON OF THE ASKANI, but thas where the resemblance ends, nate is possesed of a lot more psionic power and potential than cable.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
there was only ONE comic in which a stupid writer says that their powers are IDENTICAL{yes it WAS said} but i can prove that that is bullshit, the writer was stupid. and YES ubpringing can change people with the same dna, but as we know that that change is only in mental development, physically the two offsprings are identical. but the problem is even in POWERS cable and nate are not IDENTICAL

Correction. There were at-least several. Cable #29,30,31,63. X-Man #14-15. #45-46. Read them. Does NO ONE read the comics anymore?!

cable has vast telepathic, telekinetic, time warping and reality manipulating powers{along with other psychic powers} AND he also has ENHANCED STRENGTH AND SENSES{and not the techno organic part of him} he ALWAYS had enhanced strength. nate does NOT HAVE enhanced strength or senses, he only has human strength he was born this way UNLIKE CABLE, this should prove without a shadow of a doubt that they are NOT identical, and ALSO, cable is 6feat five inches in height, nate is only 5 feat 10 inches, hence they are not even physically identical, they DO have some facial resemblance comparing classic nate to cable in SON OF THE ASKANI, but thas where the resemblance ends, nate is possesed of a lot more psionic power and potential than cable.

Of couse they differ physically. The circumstances of their LIVES were drastically different. Not to mention X-Man is what Cable looked like when he was in his teenage years. ( The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #4, Cable annual #25, Askani'Son #1-4, Cable & Deadpool #18-19) No one has ever disputed that fact. The topic of the debate was whether X-Man and Cable were genetically identical to one another...or not. And the fact is, according to Marvel, they are.

Am I the only one who's read these comics? I mean, come-on. I'm presenting viable and concrete proof here and all I'm getting are nay-sayers who don't want to put in any effort to check the sources. I blame crap like Ultimate X-Men, X-Men Evolution, X-Men the Movie and POORLY written websites for the lack of effort. ( ie; Marveldirectory.com is CRAP people. It's outdated! ) Tisk. I'm ashamed.

Anyway, in a one on one fight I bet on Cable, always. He defeated Stryfe, The Dark Sisterhood, X-Man, Apocalypse...etc. All without the use of his God-Like powers. With them he'd simply annihilate them.

There's a pretty big difference between 6'5" and 5'10", though. Genetically identical is a stretch with a seven inch height difference.

Again. If you look back to Askani'son #1-4; Cable wasn't as tall as he is now until much later in his years. Nate Grey never REACHED such an age so we don't know how tall he would have been. Even in Cable & Deadpool #18-19 Cable was nearly Deadpool's height and then as he got older he GREW into his 6'5 britches. Have we forgotten that X-Man is a " young " version of Cable?