Originally posted by dani_california
What i meant by sex for reasons other than having children is having sex in ways were a woman wouldn't get pregnant. I don't want to get into the details of it but lets just say "unnatural" sex. And only recently did the Pope allow use of condoms if it is meant to stop the spread of diseases. So that means sex with condoms being used for birth control is a sin, so yes in context sex for pleasure is very often considered a sin. So don't put any stock in what the Pope says if it contradicts the Bible. To contradict the Bible is tantamount to contradicting God.
That is exactly what I interpreted from you. Sex for pleasure (i.e., while using contraceptives or "coitus interruptus" which is pulling out) is not a sin.Thus the term "sex for pleasure." I know what you mean and I responded to your post in light of that knowledge. I knew precisely what you meant by sex for pleasure that is why I said that based on the Bible it is not a sin. There is nothing in the world wrong with a husband and wife having sex for pleasure and not for procreation.
As as this Pope business, with all due respect the Pope does not speak for God, especially if he denies God's record (the Bible) with respect to the origin of life. If the Pope espouses evolution as the method of creation then he has forever eliminated himself as a spokesperson for God. Unless he repents and then recants his belief in evolution. I personally don't believe that the Pope speaks for God based on the many unscriptural, unbiblical, non-Bible-supportable traditions that he and other Catholics practice.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
As as this Pope business, with all due respect the Pope does not speak for God, especially if he denies God's record (the Bible) with respect to the origin of life. If the Pope espouses evolution as the method of creation then he has forever eliminated himself as a spokesperson for God. Unless he repents and then recants his belief in evolution. I personally don't believe that the Pope speaks for God based on the many unscriptural, unbiblical, non-Bible-supportable traditions that he and other Catholics practice.[/COLOR]
You spend all this time telling us how no one else speaks for god, but then you say that YOU speak for god.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is exactly what I interpreted from you. Sex for pleasure (i.e., while using contraceptives or "coitus interruptus" which is pulling out) is not a sin.Thus the term "sex for pleasure." I know what you mean and I responded to your post in light of that knowledge. I knew precisely what you meant by sex for pleasure that is why I said that based on the Bible it is not a sin. There is nothing in the world wrong with a husband and wife having sex for pleasure and not for procreation.As as this Pope business, with all due respect the Pope does not speak for God, especially if he denies God's record (the Bible) with respect to the origin of life. If the Pope espouses evolution as the method of creation then he has forever eliminated himself as a spokesperson for God. Unless he repents and then recants his belief in evolution. I personally don't believe that the Pope speaks for God based on the many unscriptural, unbiblical, non-Bible-supportable traditions that he and other Catholics practice.
But if theres nothing wrong with sex for pleasure what's wrong with gay sex? I mean they can be legaly married in Massachusetts and the UK so it wouldn't be premarital sex.
Originally posted by dani_california
But if theres nothing wrong with sex for pleasure what's wrong with gay sex? I mean they can be legaly married in Massachusetts and the UK so it wouldn't be premarital sex.
Based on God's Word (the Bible) God's will concerning marriage is that a man and woman come together together in "holy" matrimony. It is unholy for a male to have sex (sodomy) with another male. Similarly, lesbianism is also an abomination. Now let me stick a pin here, stop and come back to it.
I am simply reporting what the Bible says (I am action news JesusIsAlive as it were) so don't get made at me. If you must get mad, get mad with and throw a rock at God, not me. (I know that you are more mature than that dani, but I just wanted to state that for someone who is not as sensible as you seem). Now I will revisit the discussion.
Genesis 5:2
He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.
See, God made them (mankind, human kind) "male" and "female." God made a female for a reason. Man was incomplete without his helpmeet (helper, suitor, counterpart). God said that it is not good for man to be alone. Guess what happened next? Let me ask you dani: did God create an ape for Adam? What about a chimpanzee? Okay, okay, how about a gorillla? None of the above? Shucks. Well just what "did" God in His infinite, perfect wisdom make for Adam? Let us find out.
Genesis 2:21-252
1 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Dani, this is the will of God. That a man and a woman come together in sweet, beautiful, endless love and marriage. Based on the Bible it is unscriptural for a man to have sex (actually it is not sex it is sodomy) with, let alone marry, another man.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Based on God's Word (the Bible) God's will concerning marriage is that a man and woman come together together in "holy" matrimony. It is unholy for a male to have sex (sodomy) with another male. Similarly, lesbianism is also an abomination. Now let me stick a pin here, stop and come back to it.I am simply reporting what the Bible says (I am action news JesusIsAlive as it were) so don't get made at me. If you must get mad, get mad with and throw a rock at God, not me. (I know that you are more mature than that dani, but I just wanted to state that for someone who is not as sensible as you seem). Now I will revisit the discussion.
[B]Genesis 5:2
He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.See, God made them (mankind, human kind) "male" and "female." God made a female for a reason. Man was incomplete without his helpmeet (helper, suitor, counterpart). God said that it is not good for man to be alone. Guess what happened next? Let me ask you dani: did God create an ape for Adam? What about a chimpanzee? Okay, okay, how about a gorillla? None of the above? Shucks. Well just what "did" God in His infinite, perfect wisdom make for Adam? Let us find out.
Genesis 2:21-252
1 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.Dani, this is the will of God. That a man and a woman come together in sweet, beautiful, endless love and marriage. Based on the Bible it is unscriptural for a man to have sex (actually it is not sex it is sodomy) with, let alone marry, another man. [/B]
Fine, whatever, i guess sin is a religous word so it doesn't matter what is right and wrong, just what God says is a sin or not. All I'm arguing is that there is nothing wrong with being gay, or having gay sex. Its based on the same principle as heterosexuality, love.
Originally posted by debbiejo
God created disires. Did god create evil?
But our desires must line up with the Word of God. For example, Debb. if I desire to be a pimp (which means that I get to have first pickings on my tricks) and I pursue that lifestyle God will not bless my efforts. God will withdraw His blessings and hand from my life. I will not have God's best for me. But if I desire to be married and I pray and ask God to send me a wife, God will bless my request. I will be blessed in my union with my wife. God's hand of blessings as it were will ever be over and on me and my wife forever. It is so much better to be in God's will than to be out of God's will. So in short Debb. our desires must be governed by God's Word because if we follow the dictates of our fleshly desires, we will end up in all kinds of mess.
Did God create evil you ask? There is a verse in the Bible that says that God creates evil. However, I have heard scholars state that that particular Scripture (and others like it) were translated in the "causitive" sense instead of in the "permissive" sense. So what that means is instead of the Scripture passage stating that God "created" evil, it should state that God "permits" evil. Whether God permits evil but did not create it or whether God created evil, to be honest I would say the matter is may be left to conjecture.
Originally posted by dani_california
Fine, whatever, i guess sin is a religous word so it doesn't matter what is right and wrong, just what God says is a sin or not. All I'm arguing is that there is nothing wrong with being gay, or having gay sex. Its based on the same principle as heterosexuality, love.
That depends on what your standard of value is. My standard of value is God's Word (the Bible). I do not depend on the world's standard of value or my own necessarily except where or on matters where the Bible is silent. On issues where the Bible is silent I use wisdom (God gave me a brain so that I could use wisdom). The Bible says nothing about using deodorant, so in essence the Bible is silent on that matter. But I use deodorant because I practice good hygiene. Can you see this? If the Bible does not address a matter then I use wisdom that can be inferred from the Bible or that would be consistent with, in harmony with, or in line with God's Word. I cannot and will not use the world's standard to live my life. The world says that a lot of things are okay. For instance, the world condones premarital or homosexual sex. But look at the effect of living by the world's system of values: sexually transmitted diseases, A.I.D.S., people killing themselves because they don't value themselves. They have been told all of their life that they are nothing more than animals. So they devalue themselves and others. It is perhaps easier for them to take their lives and the lives of others once they have fallen deeply into depondency and depression, especially since they believe that they are just animals. The world says that sex is alright as long as you love your partner. The result: unwanted, unplanned-for, unexpected babies and widespread abortions on the heels of that. The list is long and I could continue. But I think you get the point. Who's system of values are you going to live by, the world's or God's? (a rhetorical question, no response needed.)
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But our desires must line up with the Word of God. For example, Debb. if I desire to be a pimp (which means that I get to have first pickings on my tricks) and I pursue that lifestyle God will not bless my efforts. God will withdraw His blessings and hand from my life. I will not have God's best for me. But if I desire to be married and I pray and ask God to send me a wife, God will bless my request. I will be blessed in my union with my wife. God's hand of blessings as it were will ever be over and on me and my wife forever. It is so much better to be in God's will than to be out of God's will. So in short Debb. our desires must be governed by God's Word because if we follow the dictates of our fleshly desires, we will end up in all kinds of mess.Did God create evil you ask? There is a verse in the Bible that says that God creates evil. However, I have heard scholars state that that particular Scripture (and others like it) were translated in the "causitive" sense instead of in the "permissive" sense. So what that means is instead of the Scripture passage stating that God "created" evil, it should state that God "permits" evil. Whether God permits evil but did not create it or whether God created evil, to be honest I would say the matter is may be left to conjecture.
I meant, the matter may be left to conjecture.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That depends on what your standard of value is. My standard of value is God's Word (the Bible). I do not depend on the world's standard of value or my own necessarily except where or on matters where the Bible is silent. On issues where the Bible is silent I use wisdom (God gave me a brain so that I could use wisdom). The Bible says nothing about using deodorant, so in essence the Bible is silent on that matter. But I use deodorant because I practice good hygiene. Can you see this. If the Bible does not address a matter then I use wisdom that can be inferred from the Bible or that would be consistent with, in harmony with, or in line with God's Word. I cannot and will not use the world's standard to live my life. The world says that a lot of things are okay. For instance, the world condones premarital or homosexual sex. But look at the effect of living by the world's system of values: sexually transmitted diseases, A.I.D.S., people killing themselves because they don't value themselves. They have been told all of their life that they are nothing more than animals. So the devalue themselves and others. It is perhaps easy for them to take their lives and the lives of others once they have fallen deeply into depondency and depression. The world says that sex is alright as long as you love your partner. The result: unwanted, unplanned-for, unexpected babies and widespread abortionson the heels of that. The list is long and I could continue. But I think you get the point. Who's system of values are you going to live by, the world's or God's? (a rhetorical question, no response needed.)
I live by my own moral standards, God gave us free will for a reason, right? I also don't think any just God would punish people for expressing love.
Originally posted by debbiejo
God created disires. Did god create evil?
Did God create the desires? If so, are the desires evil? Or is it only improper methods/context that are evil?
If there is a tendency towards procreation, and the desire to procreate is thus defined, then are all acts of procreation the same? Procreation can be achieved through a variety of means and in various context. Just because a desire is present, it does not make all methods and contexts of achieving that desire proper.
Originally posted by dani_california
Fine, whatever, i guess sin is a religous word so it doesn't matter what is right and wrong, just what God says is a sin or not. All I'm arguing is that there is nothing wrong with being gay, or having gay sex. Its based on the same principle as heterosexuality, love.
If love is the point of sex. Then yes, the two forms of sex are based on the same principle. If no, then they are not.
Originally posted by Regret
If love is the point of sex. Then yes, the two forms of sex are based on the same principle. If no, then they are not.
Well if love isn't and say pleasure is then they are also based on the same princible. Really there is no difference between homosexual sex and heterosexual sex except the gender.
It is only different if it comes down to reproduction being the only purpose. But really, sex isn't like that any more. Reproduction, expression of love, pleasure - all equally valid uses for it.
Originally posted by dani_california
I live by my own moral standards, God gave us free will for a reason, right? I also don't think any just God would punish people for expressing love.
God gave us a free will to function "within" His overall will. For example, parents give their children free will as it were to play their video games, ride their bikes, play with their friends, etc. But each respective child's free will is a subset of their parents will. They (the children's free will) must function within the boundaries and parameters set by their parents. It is the same principle with respect to the will of God.
Now, love can be misplaced and misdirected. Love can also be unhealthy. For example, some guys beat their wives/girlfriends out of love. These demented guys truly believe in their heart of hearts that they love their respective women. But...I say...if you love them...then what business do you have putting your hands on them? Can you see what I mean? Just because someone characterizes what they feel for someone else as love does not mean that it truly is love. It could be lust or something other than true love. So love--yes even this area of our lives--must be governed by God's Word (the Bible). If you love someone--truly--you are not going to do anything, willfully to hurt them. Now people say things that they don't mean all the time. I don't mean something like that. I mean consistent, regular, verbal, mental, and physical abuse. If a person manifests the preceding type of behaviors (excluding physical abuse because I think a woman should leave her husband or boyfriend the FIRST time that he puts hands on her), often, then I would raise my eyebrow at whether that person truly loves you or not. So love can be misplaced, misdirected, and unhealthy. Love (romantic and/or sexual love) between two men or two woman fits the preceding description. It matters not how sincere the parties are. They are sincerely in error.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well if love isn't and say pleasure is then they are also based on the same princible. Really there is no difference between homosexual sex and heterosexual sex except the gender.It is only different if it comes down to reproduction being the only purpose. But really, sex isn't like that any more. Reproduction, expression of love, pleasure - all equally valid uses for it.
IMO, the point is procreation. To the end that the couple is brought together through common responsibility.
If we are discussing the religious stance on homosexuality then they are not equally valid. Christianity, from my view of the Bible, is focused on the love of others, and the suppression of personal desire. From a Biblical perspective I don't believe one can claim that other than reproduction sex has value.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That depends on what your standard of value is. My standard of value is God's Word (the Bible). I do not depend on the world's standard of value or my own necessarily except where or on matters where the Bible is silent. On issues where the Bible is silent I use wisdom (God gave me a brain so that I could use wisdom). The Bible says nothing about using deodorant, so in essence the Bible is silent on that matter. But I use deodorant because I practice good hygiene. Can you see this? If the Bible does not address a matter then I use wisdom that can be inferred from the Bible or that would be consistent with, in harmony with, or in line with God's Word. I cannot and will not use the world's standard to live my life. The world says that a lot of things are okay. For instance, the world condones premarital or homosexual sex. But look at the effect of living by the world's system of values: sexually transmitted diseases, A.I.D.S., people killing themselves because they don't value themselves. They have been told all of their life that they are nothing more than animals. So they devalue themselves and others. It is perhaps easier for them to take their lives and the lives of others once they have fallen deeply into depondency and depression, especially since they believe that they are just animals. The world says that sex is alright as long as you love your partner. The result: unwanted, unplanned-for, unexpected babies and widespread abortions on the heels of that. The list is long and I could continue. But I think you get the point. Who's system of values are you going to live by, the world's or God's? (a rhetorical question, no response needed.)
Which might be valid if there was some sort of proof that such lifestyles actually are detrimental in some way. It is one thing to say "To allow such things weakens the moral fibre of humanity and leads us down the path of depression and suicide" - but there is no proof that homosexuality does that.
They have not been told they are animals all their lives. And even if they had been it does not somehow translate over into "oh no hope no purpose"- I have said before - one does not need faith in a god to live or be happy.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Love can be misplaced and misdirected. Love can also be unhealthy. For example, some guys beat their wives/girlfriends out of love. These demented guys truly believe in their heart of hearts that they love their respective women. But...I say...if you love them...then what business do you have putting your hands on them? Can you see what I mean? Just because someone characterizes what they feel for someone else as love does not mean that it truly is love. It could be lust or something other than true love. So love--yes even this area of our lives--must be governed by God's Word (the Bible). If you love someone--truly--you are not going to do anything, willfully to hurt them. Now people say things that they don't mean all the time. I don't mean something like that. I mean consistent, regular, verbal, mental, and physical abuse. If a person manifests the preceding type of behaviors (excluding physical abuse because I think a woman should leave her husband or boyfriend the FIRST time that he puts hands on her), often, then I would raise my eyebrow at whether that person truly loves you or not. So love can be misplaced, misdirected, and unhealthy. Love (romantic and/or sexual love) between two men or two woman fits the preceding description. It matters not how sincere the parties are. They are sincerely in error.
Men who beat their wives and deep down think they love her are either ****ed up junkies or they have something wrong in their head. And you can't compare beating someone to having sex with them. That's just idiotic. I know quite a few people who are gay and they are looking for true love just as the rest of us are, I know plenty of gay couples and they seem just as inlove as any straight couple i know. Many gay couples get married, adopt children, raise the children, and grow old together happily. That fact that you would actually suggest that they are sick in the head like wife beaters are shows how much you know on the subject.
Originally posted by Regret
IMO, the point is procreation. To the end that the couple is brought together through common responsibility.
Which could very well be the case. It certainly was originally. But now? The majority of the sex a person has in their lives in the modern world will not lead to procreation. A large percentage of it is carried out with no intention of it forming a baby.
It is still the way humanity continue on, but it is more then that. It has other purposes. And people know, in a world of 6 billion people that procreation is far less pressing now as it once was.
If we are discussing the religious stance on homosexuality then they are not equally valid. Christianity, from my view of the Bible, is focused on the love of others, and the suppression of personal desire. From a Biblical perspective I don't believe one can claim that other than reproduction sex has value.
Which is true, and would be binding if the Bible had the right or the potential to be the rule in which people live by. However it doesn't. People realise now that suppression of natural, healthy desires is not right. People realise now that their are different kinds of sexuality, equal right that in no way harm society. People realise that they aren't only allowed to have sex if they are trying for a child - that it is an enjoyable, potentially loving act. The Bible is not right on this front.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Which might be valid if there was some sort of proof that such lifestyles actually are detrimental in some way. It is one thing to say "To allow such things weakens the moral fibre of humanity and leads us down the path of depression and suicide" - but there is no proof that homosexuality does that.They have not been told they are animals all their lives. And even if they had been it does not somehow translate over into "oh no hope no purpose"- I have said before - one does not need faith in a god to live or be happy.
The point is that love (romantic and/or sexual) love between same genders is not valid love. God does not approve of that. That truly was the point. If you carefully read my post I did not mean to convey or give the impression that honmosexuality and suicide were related. I listed some things that I believe are associated with homosexuality, suicide was not one of them based on my post. Although I am not ruling out the possibility, I am just saying that that is not what I was attempting to communicate. I take the blame for that. But re-read the post.