On Homosexuality & Religion [Merged]

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Which could very well be the case. It certainly was originally. But now? The majority of the sex a person has in their lives in the modern world will not lead to procreation. A large percentage of it is carried out with no intention of it forming a baby.

It is still the way humanity continue on, but it is more then that. It has other purposes. And people know, in a world of 6 billion people that procreation is far less pressing now as it once was.

Which is true, and would be binding if the Bible had the right or the potential to be the rule in which people live by. However it doesn't. People realise now that suppression of natural, healthy desires is not right. People realise now that their are different kinds of sexuality, equal right that in no way harm society. People realise that they aren't only allowed to have sex if they are trying for a child - that it is an enjoyable, potentially loving act. The Bible is not right on this front.

Perhaps, but if a person believes in a Biblically based religion, then it is a sin, and is wrong. The question is whether or not it is a sin. A person that cannot handle that fact should not believe in the Bible and should discount everyone who views him as a sinner.

It seems to me, that the question was probably directed towards Bible followers, as such they need to accept that all but a minuscule fraction of Bible believers will not alter their stance on this.

It is like asking the car dealer if they can buy a car for $1, it will probably never happen, and I don't really see a need for it to happen.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The point dani is that love (romantic and/or sexual) love between same genders is not valid love. God does not approve of that. That truly was the point. If you carefully read my post I did not mean to convey or give the impression that honmosexuality and suicide were related. I listed some things that I believe are associated with homosexuality, suicide was not one of them based on my post. Although I am not ruling out the possibility, I am just saying that that is not what I was attempting to communicate. I take the blame for that. But re-read the post.

Well it was my post. But anyway - you said how the worlds values accept homosexuality and premarital sex, and the results of the worlds values are aids, sexually transmitted diseases and people killing themselves because they don't value their life. I would say this does seem to be linking together negatives with lifestyles you believe you God doesn't view as valid.

And it saddens me to see something like that. That there are types of love not valid in your God's eyes, despite homosexual love being the same and equally as powerful as heterosexual love. "Not valid love"? How very, very sad.

Originally posted by dani_california
Men who beat their wives and deep down think they love her are either ****ed up junkies or they have something wrong in their head. And you can't compare beating someone to having sex with them. That's just idiotic. I know quite a few people who are gay and they are looking for true love just as the rest of us are, I know plenty of gay couples and they seem just as inlove as any straight couple i know. Many gay couples get married, adopt children, raise the children, and grow old together happily. That fact that you would actually suggest that they are sick in the head like wife beaters are shows how much you know on the subject.

It is obvious where you stand on the subject then press on. I have already gone out of my way to explain from the Bible's point of view that the homosexual mindset and lifestyle is an abomination. If you don't believe that then you do not believe the Bible. You may not realize this but your anger is misdirected. You are angry because I do not see things the way that you do. I see things from God's perspective (as revealed in His word) on the subject of homosexuality. I will not be persuaded otherwise. You on the other hand see things from a totally different (and unbiblical) standpoint. There really is no more reason for discussion. Homosexuals are in errror. Folks, when are you guys (and girls) going to quote what I "actually" said? It seems that you all have a penchant for putting your own words in my mouth. Show me dani...show me where I said that homosexuals are sick in the head. They may be but I don't talk like that. Not because I can't I am just more tactful. What I said is that they are sincerely in error. Big difference.

Originally posted by Regret
Perhaps, but if a person believes in a Biblically based religion, then it is a sin, and is wrong. The question is whether or not it is a sin. A person that cannot handle that fact should not believe in the Bible and should discount everyone who views him as a sinner.

But that is the crux of the issue - if a person believes a Biblically based religion. If they do obviously they can live by those rules. But the point is that the Bible does not bind, and a follower of a Biblical religion should not attempt to force his/her views of right and wrong on society. Society itself decides that, and it has deemed homosexuality perfectly acceptable. The Bible and it's followers can debate it as they wish. They can consider it a sin, but society does not. There are plenty who think it wrong, sure, but a gay can't be thrown into jail or stoned or forced to be celibate because they are gay any more - the entity known as state in most progressive societies has judged the matter morally ans scientifically and allows it.

It seems to me, that the question was probably directed towards Bible followers, as such they need to accept that all but a minuscule fraction of Bible believers will not alter their stance on this.

It is like asking the car dealer if they can buy a car for $1, it will probably never happen, and I don't really see a need for it to happen.

You are right. But it is hard to face a few that seems to devoid or rationality. Homosexuality is a "sin" they say - but there seems to be no justification for it.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
But that is the crux of the issue - if a person believes a Biblically based religion. If they do obviously they can live by those rules. But the point is that the Bible does not bind, and a follower of a Biblical religion should not attempt to force his/her views of right and wrong on society. Society itself decides that, and it has deemed homosexuality perfectly acceptable. The Bible and it's followers can debate it as they wish. They can consider it a sin, but society does not. There are plenty who think it wrong, sure, but a gay can't be thrown into jail or stoned or forced to be celibate because they are gay any more - the entity known as state in most progressive societies has judged the matter morally ans scientifically and allows it.

You are right. But it is hard to face a few that seems to devoid or rationality. Homosexuality is a "sin" they say - but there seems to be no justification for it.

But the crux isn't the Bible followers holding the homosexual community down, not any more. The crux is that the homosexual community cannot seem to get past the fact that there are individuals that do disagree. There is nothing holding homosexuality down any longer. No matter how strong the support for anti-homosexual agendas are, there will be no laws or other impediments to them doing as they will. I believe it has become personal and is no longer about freedoms.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The point is that love (romantic and/or sexual) love between same genders is not valid love. God does not approve of that. That truly was the point. If you carefully read my post I did not mean to convey or give the impression that honmosexuality and suicide were related. I listed some things that I believe are associated with homosexuality, suicide was not one of them based on my post. Although I am not ruling out the possibility, I am just saying that that is not what I was attempting to communicate. I take the blame for that. But re-read the post.

I meant to write homosexuality not honmosexuality.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It is obvious where you stand on the subject then press on. I have already gone out of my way to explain from the Bible's point of view that the homosexual mindset and lifestyle is an abomination. If you don't believe that then you do not believe the Bible. You may not realize this but your anger is misdirected. You are angry because I do not see things the way that you do. I see things from God's perspective (as revealed in His word) on the subject of homosexuality. I will not be persuaded otherwise. You on the other hand see things from a totally different (and unbiblical) standpoint. There really is no more reason for discussion. Homosexuals are in errror. Folks, when are you guys (and girls) going to quote what I "actually" said? It seems that you all have a penchant for putting your own words in my mouth. Show me dani...show me where I said that homosexuals are sick in the head. They may be but I don't talk like that. Not because I can't I am just more tactful. What I said is that they are sincerely in error. Big difference.

The way that you presented what you were saying made it easy to draw that conclusion. You said something to that affect that people can show love in unhealthy ways or think they are inlove when that isn't really the case. You said this is what you thought gay people were feeling. But then you used men who beat their wives as an example of unhealthy love, as if homosexuality is another type of this 'unhealthy love'. For a while i was respecting your oppinion but it doesn't seem like you've taken the time to actually understand homosexuality, you just take what you read in the bible as truth. You have to think for yourself once and a while. Like I've said before God didn't write the bible, his words could've gotten jumbled up along the way.

Originally posted by Regret
But the crux isn't the Bible followers holding the homosexual community down, not any more. The crux is that the homosexual community cannot seem to get past the fact that there are individuals that do disagree. There is nothing holding homosexuality down any longer. No matter how strong the support for anti-homosexual agendas are, there will be no laws or other impediments to them doing as they will. I believe it has become personal and is no longer about freedoms.

I don't know. The gay people I know seem to be fairly accepting that the majority of the world is not like them and never will be. Likewise that there will always be those who, whether out of bias or ignorance are anti-gay.

But sure - there is nobody "really" holding them down any more. There is just very vocal groups who make it know they don't like them, consider them (or for the more liberal Christians their lifestyle) abominations. For most part gay people don't go around trying to "convert" other men or women. They don't go around trying to stop people being heterosexual. Which is something those with anti-homosexual agendas do.

I think the homosexual community is fairly well beyond the fact people will disagree with their lifestyle. It is the Church motivated anti-homosexual lobbies that need to understand that their Holy Book and its definitions are not socially binding on those outside the religion. It is they who need to accept they don't have the right to stick their Bible in places it neither belongs or is desired.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It is they who need to accept they don't have the right to stick their Bible in places it neither belongs or is desired.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

God gave us a free will to function "within" His overall will. For example, parents give their children free will as it were to play their video games, ride their bikes, play with their friends, etc. But each respective child's free will is a subset of their parents will. They (the children's free will) must function within the boundaries and parameters set by their parents. It is the same principle with respect to the will of God.

Now, love can be misplaced and misdirected. Love can also be unhealthy. For example, some guys beat their wives/girlfriends out of love. These demented guys truly believe in their heart of hearts that they love their respective women. But...I say...if you love them...then what business do you have putting your hands on them? Can you see what I mean? Just because someone characterizes what they feel for someone else as love does not mean that it truly is love. It could be lust or something other than true love. So love--yes even this area of our lives--must be governed by God's Word (the Bible). If you love someone--truly--you are not going to do anything, willfully to hurt them. Now people say things that they don't mean all the time. I don't mean something like that. I mean consistent, regular, verbal, mental, and physical abuse. If a person manifests the preceding type of behaviors (excluding physical abuse because I think a woman should leave her husband or boyfriend the FIRST time that he puts hands on her), often, then I would raise my eyebrow at whether that person truly loves you or not. So love can be misplaced, misdirected, and unhealthy. Love (romantic and/or sexual love) between two men or two woman fits the preceding description. It matters not how sincere the parties are. They are sincerely in error.

I see where you could conclude that I was saying that homosexual love is similar to a man who beats his wife. I wrote,

"Love (romantic and/or sexual love) between two men or two woman fits the preceding description."

I wrote that right after talking about a man physically abusing his wife and girlfriend. I accept full blame for that but that was not what I meant. I was referring to love between homosexuals being "misdirected, misplaced love." That is what I meant. Although sincere their love is misdirected and misplaced. Do you see the two categories at the top? One is "misdirected and misplaced love" the other category is "unhealthy" love. So there are two categories right? There is a former and a latter. What I should have written was,

"Love (romantic and/or sexual love) between two men or two woman fits the FORMER description." Meaning the first category. But I used the "preceding" leading you believe that I was talking about the statement that went before what I just said.

Communcation is an undertaking and great task in itself (trying to get what I mean and what I say from my mind to paper) but I do still try.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I don't know. The gay people I know seem to be fairly accepting that the majority of the world is not like them and never will be. Likewise that there will always be those who, whether out of bias or ignorance are anti-gay.

But sure - there is nobody "really" holding them down any more. There is just very vocal groups who make it know they don't like them, consider them (or for the more liberal Christians their lifestyle) abominations. For most part gay people don't go around trying to "convert" other men or women. They don't go around trying to stop people being heterosexual. Which is something those with anti-homosexual agendas do.

I think the homosexual community is fairly well beyond the fact people will disagree with their lifestyle. It is the Church motivated anti-homosexual lobbies that need to understand that their Holy Book and its definitions are not socially binding on those outside the religion. It is they who need to accept they don't have the right to stick their Bible in places it neither belongs or is desired.

Perhaps, but when they respond, they attack the entire Biblical community, and do not differentiate between those of us that do not push for social restraints but disagree. Also, there are very vocal homosexuals, that push their agendas when such is not any more appropriate than the religious agendas.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Yeah...I've been meaning to write a short essay on why that both is their right and it's acceptable.

So, if in a topsy turvey world you would be happy to have a stereotypical gay person come up to you and go on and on about why you should be gay and do his best to convert you then?

Because I see no reason why if gays do not do such things, and are not socially allowed to do such things, why a religious person operating under "Gays are abominations, the Bible says I must convert them" should be allowed to.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So, if in a topsy turvey world you would be happy to have a stereotypical gay person come up to you and go on and on about why you should be gay and do his best to convert you then?

Because I see no reason why if gays do not do such things, and are not socially allowed to do such things, why a religious person operating under "Gays are abominations, the Bible says I must convert them" should be allowed to.

There are people who basically do that to those of my faith, they are supported by the law.

Originally posted by Regret
Perhaps, but when they respond, they attack the entire Biblical community, and do not differentiate between those of us that do not push for social restraints but disagree. Also, there are very vocal homosexuals, that push their agendas when such is not any more appropriate than the religious agendas.

First - what homosexual agendas? Their desire to have equal legal rights as a heterosexual couple? To have something comparable and recognised as marriage? To be allowed to enter into any career they wish without fear of being sacked if it should come out they are gay?

And as to the rest - no different from anything else. When a group allows vocal members to go on and on they risk all being tarred with the same brush. Muslims experience it, fat people experience it, soldiers and police do, gays, black people. And often it is the same thing - the counter attack from the gay community is made up of its vocal sector. Just like the anti-gay Christians going all out against all gays, the pro-gay gays choose not to differentiate when it comes to Christians in general (especially when Christians themselves can't decide how they feel on the subject)

Originally posted by Regret
There are people who basically do that to those of my faith, they are supported by the law.

Gay people come up to your faith and try to turn you gay? Or do you mean other Christian sects/denominations come up to your religion and try and steal followers? Or Atheists? Or whatever?

The question is - is it nice? Do you like them doing it?

Equal rights is an agenda. Its also an agenda that trumps ANY religoius concern.

Originally posted by dani_california
The way that you presented what you were saying made it easy to draw that conclusion. You said something to that affect that people can show love in unhealthy ways or think they are inlove when that isn't really the case. You said this is what you thought gay people were feeling. But then you used men who beat their wives as an example of unhealthy love, as if homosexuality is another type of this 'unhealthy love'. For a while i was respecting your oppinion but it doesn't seem like you've taken the time to actually understand homosexuality, you just take what you read in the bible as truth. You have to think for yourself once and a while. Like I've said before God didn't write the bible, his words could've gotten jumbled up along the way.

I clarified my post dani. Sorry for the mix up.

Originally posted by Alliance
Equal rights is an agenda. Its also an agenda that trumps ANY religoius concern.

Which I would agree with. In my eyes an agenda based upon seeking equal rights is far more justified then an agenda based upon a small part of an ancient book that deals with taking away rights.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
First - what homosexual agendas? Their desire to have equal legal rights as a heterosexual couple? Do have something comparable and recognised as marriage? To be allowed to enter into any career they wish without fear of being sacked if it should come out they are gay?

I believe it is inappropriate to tell a minor that believing that homosexuality is wrong is wrong. Moral teaching is not up to homosexual groups, and this one is an agenda that I have witnessed firsthand. Any activity in a school of minors that exposes a child to discussion of sexual activity without the permission of the parent is an improper use of public resources, this includes clubs supporting sexual orientation.

I believe that marriage, heterosexual or otherwise, should not be legally recognized unless there are dependant minors involved, so that part isn't a valid point, imo.

As to being sacked, such is not a possibility any longer, at least not in the U.S.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to the rest - no different from anything else. When a group allows vocal members to go on and on they risk all being tarred with the same brush. Muslims experience it, fat people experience it, soldiers and police do, gays, black people. And often it is the same thing - the counter attack from the gay community is made up of its vocal sector. Just like the anti-gay Christians going all out against all gays, the pro-gay gays choose not to differentiate when it comes to Christians in general (especially when Christians themselves can't decide how they feel on the subject)

Agreed.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Gay people come up to your faith and try to turn you gay? Or do you mean other Christian sects/denominations come up to your religion and try and steal followers? Or Atheists? Or whatever?

The question is - is it nice? Do you like them doing it?

I believe it is their right. I am not speaking of trying to steal followers. I am speaking of people yelling in your face that you are worshipping the devil and such, not peaceable in any way, but barely within the bounds of the law. If they are within the law, then it is their right, despite what I like or dislike.