Hercules vs Doomsday(DOS)

Originally posted by Draco69
❌ So sad.

Your "scan" will have a caption where Hercules sarcastically says he held the Earth.

No. It was GREY Hulk who destroyed the asteroid. Go to the Hulk Respect Thread. Mr Fix-it was snobbering the entire time.

Also, If DC Hercules (who REALLY held the Earth) couldn't last against a friggin clone of Doomsday than....

Draco is right. It was Grey Hulk. He used rocket springs to get up there. Still a great feat of strength for him, tho.

Doesn't that scan show Herc holding the earth, though? 😬

"Is it IMMORTAL Herc? If so then he cant be killed."

Not by conventional means.

I place Byrne Supeman under Savage Hulk, Thor, Glads and Herc, strenghtwise. Plus this is a slugfest kind of fight. Supeman isent better at it than the ones i listed.

"Doesn't that scan show Herc holding the earth, though"

Yes.

Makes me wonder why pll try to racionalize a high end feat in Herc`s case, but not one of hulk`s, or Thor`s or Wonder Woman.

This is - superhero/fantasy - comics, real life physics dont live here. Real life perspectives dont live either. Its as over the top like any other feat.

People don't give immortal Herc enough credit for his strength. He's at least got at least Superman level strength. Heck, he and Thor accidentally moved the Earth from it's orbit during their fight, while they were just warming up. It took Supes MM and Wondie to move the Earth, and they were struggling like hell. Respect Herc.

Originally posted by olympian
"Is it IMMORTAL Herc? If so then he cant be killed."

Not by conventional means.

I place Byrne Supeman under Savage Hulk, Thor, Glads and Herc, strenghtwise. Plus this is a slugfest kind of fight. Supeman isent better at it than the ones i listed.

"Doesn't that scan show Herc holding the earth, though"

Yes.

Makes me wonder why pll try to racionalize a high end feat in Herc`s case, but not one of hulk`s, or Thor`s or Wonder Woman.

This is - superhero/fantasy - comics, real life physics dont live here. Real life perspectives dont live either. Its as over the top like any other feat.

I.e. Namor, Atlas, Abomination, Mortal Herc level ?

"I.e. Namor, Atlas, Abomination, Mortal Herc level ?"

What? Byrne Superman?

"People don't give immortal Herc enough credit for his strength. He's at least got at least Superman level strength. Heck, he and Thor accidentally moved the Earth from it's orbit during their fight"

The one that also shattered the mountain where they wer doing the armwrestling match, right.

Doomsday.

Originally posted by olympian
"I.e. Namor, Atlas, Abomination, Mortal Herc level ?"

What? Byrne Superman?

"People don't give immortal Herc enough credit for his strength. He's at least got at least Superman level strength. Heck, he and Thor accidentally moved the Earth from it's orbit during their fight"

Yes 🙂

Yeah, around that. (Not original double_Hulk strength Abomination tho!). Wonder Man would also be in my pov another good example.

Byrne Superman didnt had that much of high feats of strenght, and had some lows on it.

More than the others anyway. Like having trouble with planes, building structure, globes and the like.

Originally posted by olympian
Yeah, around that. (Not original double_Hulk strength Abomination tho!). Wonder Man would also be in my pov another good example.

Byrne Superman didnt had that much of high feats of strenght, and had some lows on it.

More than the others anyway. Like having trouble with planes, building structure, globes and the like.

I'd have him at the high end of that Level. He did lift a mountian into space. 🙂

dragging manhattan in water is NOTHING to holding . . . whatever you claim he held.

has it been contradicted? unclear. forgotten one HAS been credited in marvel with having done at least a couple of herc's feats, though. so if ONE of them was contradicted, doesn't that throw ALL of them into question?

we'll never see eye-to-eye on this until it is definitively proven to me. herc is a boaster (what we call an unreliable narrator) so taking what he says as fact is not a good idea imo. ESPECIALLY in light of the story (a complete joke and an entire issue FULL of herc claiming to have done things he in fact didn't do -- whether he later admited to some of it being clowning or not) in which it was claimed.

as you know, i stand with draco on this one. ahh, the memories . . .

😄

<<Doesn't that scan show Herc holding the earth, though?>>

it's all about context, cc . . .

and i've been respecting herc for 20 years! doesn't mean i think he can hold the earth on his shoulders.

"I'd have him at the high end of that Level. He did lift a mountian into space"

Mountain level would be his high end feat. Herc, Hulk and Thor high end feats are above. And usually with no lows like he had.

"dragging manhattan in water is NOTHING to holding . . . whatever you claim he held"

Its a statement by the narration while he was making the feat. Holds water to me like it does in other cases.

"forgotten one HAS been credited in marvel with having done at least a couple of herc's feats, though. so if ONE of them was contradicted, doesn't that throw ALL of them into question"

Now that is a great question (no, im not being sarcastic). Yes he has. The only problem is it has been retconned back. He was first said to have done the cleaning stables labour only. Then helding the Earth AS Atlas (yup ye heard me).

Problems with this? Herc got all his labours to his credit again (as seen in the last mini for example) and even in stories of that era.

And he couldnt be Atlas (and never was) simply because the Titan has been in Marvel stories before and after the instance where he said that. (last seen during Jurgens run on Thor).

If he had -nothing- to contradict it, no writer giving Herc his credits, and no Atlas the titan at Marvel, id give the Forgotten one his due in - all of those -

But it was retconned, changed, contradicted. I`ve yet to seen a case in the real Atlas/Herc case.

"we'll never see eye-to-eye on this until it is definitively proven to me. herc is a boaster (what we call an unreliable narrator) so taking what he says as fact is not a good idea imo. ESPECIALLY in light of the story (a complete joke and an entire issue FULL of herc claiming to have done things he in fact didn't do -- whether he later admited to some of it being clowning or not) in which it was claimed"

If that would be true, every arrogant and boaster around (including the Hulk/rey, Thor, Namor, Pre crisis Superman and more) would have -not-to be taken serious in any case.

Being arrogant or sarcastic (like him saying hehe and making a pun with the "herculean" task being his name) alone, doesnt say if hes lying unless someone or something says so.

For example, we know he was lying about Thors fight, because Jarvis mentioned it didnt went that way. That he was exageratting.

The labours on the other hand, havent such a contradiction. Those are the labours we all know. The way the artist decided to depict them its his choice.

I respect your opinion (ahh the memories indeed 😉 this is going to be one of those things well never agree with) but between a statement and a scene on panel with no contradictions and only assumptions on the other side, i go with what it was showed.

"and i've been respecting herc for 20 years! doesn't mean i think he can hold the earth on his shoulders."

Your entitled to your opinion.

I don't know... I can see where leonidas and Draco are coming from. It appears that the art is drawn to reflect the comment, more than the art is a flashback depiction of the actual event. The veritability of the narration is the real question... the context of the comic as a whole, the narrator's nature and the feat itself all make it rather suspect... just imo.

✅

"The veritability of the narration is the real question... the context of the comic as a whole, the narrator's nature and the feat itself all make it rather suspect... just imo."

The narration nature in that one its all Herc. Boastful, prideful in itself,a and arrogant. Its him whos telling us about his past labours ater all, not another character. It has to sound that way.

The other narration when he drags Manhattan its a more serious one. Its made by the writer/narrator (not the character) where the same was stated.
For me examples that exist without contradiction tells me more than the other way.

again, there is an ENORMOUS difference between dragging manhattan -- which i fully accept as a great feat -- and holding the earth. which to me still hasn't been definitively shown.

If Atlas constantly holds up the earth, why don't you think Herc can do it?

Herc is a very strong character yes, but if one takes the feat seriously then are we to assume that he regularly lifts 6.6 × 10^21 tons. That's 6,600 million million million tons. Thor has on an occasion struggled to lift a skyscraper.

<<If Atlas constantly holds up the earth, why don't you think Herc can do it?>>

actually, the way marvel cosmology is set up, atlas CAN'T be holding the heavens/earth. the whole notion is ridiculous and sets up so many inconsistencies it's not even funny.

"again, there is an ENORMOUS difference between dragging manhattan -- which i fully accept as a great feat -- and holding the earth. which to me still hasn't been definitively shown."

Same it is with Hulk helding a mountain and then clapping a cosmos.

Its comics. Characters start from one thing to another. Even in the myths Herc started as a guy who fought a Lion to go against thypon and helding the heavens.

"Herc is a very strong character yes, but if one takes the feat seriously then are we to assume that he regularly lifts 6.6 × 10^21 tons. That's 6,600 million million million tons. Thor has on an occasion struggled to lift a skyscraper."

So has Superman with a plane.

Yet on another ocassions one moved Warlord and another lift the Midgard Serpent tha encircled the Earth.

Those dont count either then?

"actually, the way marvel cosmology is set up, atlas CAN'T be holding the heavens/earth. the whole notion is ridiculous and sets up so many inconsistencies it's not even funny."

Atlas exists in the Marvel Universe. Herc labours are cannon in the Marvel Universe. Zeus history and the titans are in the Marvel Universe.

See where i am heading. Where is the proof on panel that says they never did it.

And inconsistence? Id say it happens all the time in this medium no?

<<And inconsistence? Id say it happens all the time in this medium no?>>

just further illustrates my point that perhaps it DIDN'T happen then . . .