Hercules vs Doomsday(DOS)

Started by olympian4 pages

And how many top feats fall in that category then? Shall we start dismissing all.

Considering there are more than one point, including scenes on panel and other narrations i accept it as valid until one writter decides its not and says so. In a printed story.

Otherwise:

"Herc is a very strong character yes, but if one takes the feat seriously then are we to assume that he regularly lifts 6.6 × 10^21 tons. That's 6,600 million million million tons. Thor has on an occasion struggled to lift a skyscraper."

So has Superman with a plane.

Yet on another ocassions one moved Warlord and another lift the Midgard Serpent tha encircled the Earth"

Feats with this "inconsistency" never happened.

Actually I was pointing out with Thor that there are occasions where a showing doesn't accurately depict strength. On occasion a character does something that exaggerates strength, and at times a character does something that underestimates strength. If something in either direction is completely beyond showings or generally accepted levels for a character, then the incident should be taken with a grain of salt, rather than just accepted without question.

Hercules is a high cl100, but if you want to consider lifting the Earth as canon then does that make him 3 times as strong as Superman - considering he needed the aid of Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter - and do we take it that he always has the strength to lift 6.6 x 10^21 tons and every other showing is just a matter of him holding back (a lot)?

and thor never lifted jormungand -- he could barely lift one foot. and that's the point by the way -- there ARE no other high class feats that compare to holding the entire earth! even hulk's shouldering a mountain range literally PALES in comparison. holding the earth is SO far outside the norm of high class feats it's ridiculous. no other character (including thor) has come close to that. even using their strengths TOGETHER to 'knock a planet out of orbit' (which is just another 'legand tale' and again need NOT be viewed by all as canon) is nothing to herc alone holding the earth.

you say dismiss other cl100 feats -- i likely would if any other feat were to compare with this one.

"Hercules is a high cl100, but if you want to consider lifting the Earth as canon then does that make him 3 times as strong as Superman - considering he needed the aid of Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter - and do we take it that he always has the strength to lift 6.6 x 10^21 tons and every other showing is just a matter of him holding back (a lot)?"

Why are even trying to get numbers.....? That doesnt work in comics.

There are several explanations you could pull it off like he tried harder than they did, or had to deal with less restraining forces than they did OR its just a high end feat above what they could in that day.

Take your pick. If you ask me if he showed to be stronger than those 3 one on one -with that feat- then yeah. In that moment at least. But guess what...

. Gladiator destroying a planet with punches doesnt mean the same? Or Superman moving Warworld doesnt mean the same?

And its also cannon at DC he did the same, WW says so before trying the same with the others, what does it means then?

"and thor never lifted jormungand -- he could barely lift one foot."

Wrong. He pulled the serpent OFF earth once. With a fishing line no less. This is a Marvel feat that happened on panel in a Thor comic.

The instance your recalling its another in keen with the myth...that was shown as a flasback oddly 😉

"and that's the point by the way -- there ARE no other high class feats that compare to holding the entire earth! even hulk's shouldering a mountain range literally PALES in comparison."

Yes but on the other hand, clapping a cosmos and punching a freaking time storm is. And inconsistantly the weakest Hulk destroying an asteroid twice Earth`s size.

"holding the earth is SO far outside the norm of high class feats it's ridiculous. no other character (including thor) has come close to that."

Pulling the Midgard Serpent off Earth, while this is struggling is in the same class.

"even using their strengths TOGETHER to 'knock a planet out of orbit' (which is just another 'legand tale' and again need NOT be viewed by all as canon) is nothing to herc alone holding the earth."

Herc strengh -against- Thors strenght in an armwrestling match did generated force to pull Earth out of orbit. It happened, you guess it : on panel too. Also stated in the narration.

"you say dismiss other cl100 feats -- i likely would if any other feat were to compare with this one."

- pre crisis Superman moving earth

- Superboy pulling a solar sistem (at least several planets in line) with also a line.

- Hulk dealing with the antimatter force without being zapped

- Hulk destroying an asteroid twice the earts size

- Thor pulling the Midgard Serpent off Earth.

- Thor moving the world engine.

- Gladiator destroying a planet in 3 punches.

So many to chose aight. Wich ones you take out.

Originally posted by olympian
"again, there is an ENORMOUS difference between dragging manhattan -- which i fully accept as a great feat -- and holding the earth. which to me still hasn't been definitively shown."

Same it is with Hulk helding a mountain and then clapping a cosmos.

Its comics. Characters start from one thing to another. Even in the myths Herc started as a guy who fought a Lion to go against thypon and helding the heavens.

"Herc is a very strong character yes, but if one takes the feat seriously then are we to assume that he regularly lifts 6.6 × 10^21 tons. That's 6,600 million million million tons. Thor has on an occasion struggled to lift a skyscraper."

So has Superman with a plane.

Yet on another ocassions one moved Warlord and another lift the Midgard Serpent tha encircled the Earth.

Those dont count either then?

"actually, the way marvel cosmology is set up, atlas CAN'T be holding the heavens/earth. the whole notion is ridiculous and sets up so many inconsistencies it's not even funny."

Atlas exists in the Marvel Universe. Herc labours are cannon in the Marvel Universe. Zeus history and the titans are in the Marvel Universe.

See where i am heading. Where is the proof on panel that says they never did it.

And inconsistence? Id say it happens all the time in this medium no?

If one was to take a MEAN level of their strength, Post Crisis Superman (i.e. Byrne and co) would be stronger.

Medians are better... less outlier effects...

"If one was to take a MEAN level of their strength, Post Crisis Superman (i.e. Byrne and co) would be stronger."

You mean -average- showings? Youd still have to deal with low strengh showings that he had, in relation with the Marvel top tier.

And for the record im saying Byrne Superman is weaker than those, not the later versions.

"Medians are better... less outlier effects..."

You mean taking out the high end feats?

<<The instance your recalling its another in keen with the myth...that was shown as a flasback oddly>>

no it wasn't. it was shown as thor tried to lift fin fang foom who was really jormungand in disguise.

thor's pulling the serpent (which i did forget about, was later contradicted -- which would mean it what, didn't really happen then 😉) when he was shown to barely be able to lift one foot. also, that's a scan i'd need to see again for context purposes. anyway, it WAS contradicted in a much more recent book.

you're using pre-c supes/superboy as comparisons?? those 'feats' were part of the reason he was revamped to begin with!

matter/antimatter -- writers had no clue what they were really showing. it happened of course, but its not the same as holding the earth.

glads' destroying some rock with 3 punches also is not the same. you don't even know how big the rock ball was.

i suppose hulk destroying the asteroid is rather silly, but again, it is different from holding a weight.

rule out supes' prec feats, thor's serpent is contradicted later, and you're left with less then a couple feats that MAY APPROACH holding the earth -- which in itself is wrong and a marvel interpretation of that event. and that's leaving aside the impossible contradictions such a rendition of marvel cosmology would create . . .

so as i said, no there are not any feats that compare equally. destroying an asteriod? uh-uh. glads?? uh-uh. matter/antimatter? maybe, but its a different display and one the writers did not understand, clearly.

the feat never happened. too many contradictions created if it did, never shown clearly in present time, never raised by any other characters, never mentioned save one little time in some comedic issue where herc is BRAGGING through the whole thing (and if he DID, wouldn't you think it would be a feat mentioned more than that tiny instance?)

bottom line is you'll never convince me it happened until it happens in real time and it is clearly and definitively shown.

"no it wasn't. it was shown as thor tried to lift fin fang foom who was really jormungand in disguise."

And on another time as flasback without being Fing fang Foom. John Buscema style.

"thor's pulling the serpent (which i did forget about, was later contradicted -- which would mean it what, didn't really happen then ) when he was shown to barely be able to lift one foot. also, that's a scan i'd need to see again for context purposes. anyway, it WAS contradicted in a much more recent book"

Go to thor alvaros message board, do a search in scans and u`ll find it.

It was contradicted as long it was -stated or shown- that he never pulled the other one before. Like Doomsday being said to have "Flash speed" and being showed in the same comic he never did. How was it?

It becomes even less of a contradiction in fact, if that encounter you are describing happened during the time Thor had the Hela curse.

"matter/antimatter -- writers had no clue what they were really showing. it happened of course, but its not the same as holding the earth"

Then you dismiss it? And not the same? Of course not, shouldnt it be harder even.

"glads' destroying some rock with 3 punches also is not the same. you don't even know how big the rock ball was."

It was a planet of that we are sure. And we dont know, the same way we dont know either if it was bigger than Earth. He has the strenght to punch one, he has to move or held it. Its a plenetary level feat i.e a high end one.

"i suppose hulk destroying the asteroid is rather silly, but again, it is different from holding a weight."

Every feat we are talking about are silly. And while being different he destroyed something -twice the Earts size- . And with one punch only. Thats more over the top for me and inconsistent considering it was Grey Hulk.

"rule out supes' prec feats, thor's serpent is contradicted later, and you're left with less then a couple feats that MAY APPROACH holding the earth"

Pre crisis feats are there to remind you that characters have done it and will continue to do so. Like moving Warworld. Like Glads punching a planet .Same with the others. Thor moving the world engine (wich he did, even he struggle) its another.

"so as i said, no there are not any feats that compare equally. destroying an asteriod? glads? no way. uh-uh. matter/antimatter? maybe, but its a different display and one the writers did not understand, clearly."

Some are even higher. And the writers dont understand cleary? This isent sciences, however you either dismiss pretty much all or none. Are you? Since the writers get nada of it.

"which in itself is wrong and a marvel interpretation of that event"

First off, if you admit its Marvel interpretation, you have no need to even claiming anything against.

Second that version exists, like the heavens one. A writer deciding what to use its up to him.

Everything that happens in comics are "wrong". Big discovery. Have a statement on panel saying it never happened?

"the feat never happened. too many contradictions created if it did, never shown clearly in present time, never raised by any other characters, never mentioned save one little time in some comedic issue where herc is BRAGGING through the whole thing (and if he DID, wouldn't you think it would be a feat mentioned more than that tiny instance?)"

The feat could never have happened in the present time. I already explained why. Being arrogant now its the same as lying?

Alot of characters are a bunch of liars then.

Its quite simple. Either get me something on a page showing or stating he never did or take it as face value.

Or dont take any high end feat. Inconsistence alone doesnt cut it, every character its full of it.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<The instance your recalling its another in keen with the myth...that was shown as a flasback oddly>>

no it wasn't. it was shown as thor tried to lift fin fang foom who was really jormungand in disguise.

thor's pulling the serpent (which i did forget about, was later contradicted -- which would mean it what, didn't really happen then 😉) when he was shown to barely be able to lift one foot. also, that's a scan i'd need to see again for context purposes. anyway, it WAS contradicted in a much more recent book.

you're using pre-c supes/superboy as comparisons?? those 'feats' were part of the reason he was revamped to begin with!

matter/antimatter -- writers had no clue what they were really showing. it happened of course, but its not the same as holding the earth.

glads' destroying some rock with 3 punches also is not the same. you don't even know how big the rock ball was.

i suppose hulk destroying the asteroid is rather silly, but again, it is different from holding a weight.

rule out supes' prec feats, thor's serpent is contradicted later, and you're left with less then a couple feats that MAY APPROACH holding the earth -- which in itself is wrong and a marvel interpretation of that event. and that's leaving aside the impossible contradictions such a rendition of marvel cosmology would create . . .

so as i said, no there are not any feats that compare equally. destroying an asteriod? uh-uh. glads?? uh-uh. matter/antimatter? maybe, but its a different display and one the writers did not understand, clearly.

the feat never happened. too many contradictions created if it did, never shown clearly in present time, never raised by any other characters, never mentioned save one little time in some comedic issue where herc is BRAGGING through the whole thing (and if he DID, wouldn't you think it would be a feat mentioned more than that tiny instance?)

bottom line is you'll never convince me it happened until it happens in real time and it is clearly and definitively shown.

You are a bit of a Thesaurus Leo, but i totally agree with you (I had to read it a few times though) 🙂

"Thor moving the world engine (wich he did, even he struggle) its another. "

When did this happen ?
🙂

Warren Ellis and Deodato Jr Run. Cant tell the issue number from memory tho.

Check the Deodato Jr Thor visionaires TP and its there Yahman.

Originally posted by olympian
Warren Ellis and Deodato Jr Run. Cant tell the issue number from memory tho.

Check the Deodato Jr Thor visionaires TP and its there Yahman.

What is that ?

How big is the 'World engine'?

if thas really the way comic book showings should be taken, then that also means that we cant take destroying of planets by ANY normal charcters to be cannon, cause that requires literally THOUSANDS of times more force/power than to LIFT a planet{ a ridiculous concept anyway} what i personally think marvel was tryin to show when hercules lifted the earth or thor lifted the serpeant was their MYSTICAL or mythical strengths, not DIRECT physical strength, because looking at those imaged, hercules was nearly 1/10th the size of EARTH. these kinda things only happen in the mystical realms and should not really be taken PHYSICALLY.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if thas really the way comic book showings should be taken, then that also means that we cant take destroying of planets by ANY normal charcters to be cannon, cause that requires literally THOUSANDS of times more force/power than to LIFT a planet{ a ridiculous concept anyway} what i personally think marvel was tryin to show when hercules lifted the earth or thor lifted the serpeant was their MYSTICAL or mythical strengths, not DIRECT physical strength, because looking at those imaged, hercules was nearly 1/10th the size of EARTH. these kinda things only happen in the mystical realms and should not really be taken PHYSICALLY.

Indeed, and when we take his into consideration Thor's impressive feats displays seem to be lacking compared to Wonder Womans. 🙂

i could go into debtaing point for point, but that gets tedious. you said a couple of things of relevence:

<<Its quite simple. Either get me something on a page showing or stating he never did or take it as face value.>>

so i should take spidey beating firelord at face value? wolvie stabbing thanos? the statement is ridiculous. not all feats (on panel or not) should be taken at face value. it's why we have the term PIS, as much as i HATE invoking it. matter/antimatter can CERTAINLY be viewed as PIS because the writers had no knowledge of what they were really doing.

<<Alot of characters are a bunch of liars then.>>

news flash: of course they are!! glads says he can 'rip stars apart'. should i believe him? how about ss having 'infinte power', as he and others have said of him, or ss being 'power incarnate'? should i just blindly accept those statements as fact? again, ridiculous. as a reader you have the ability to choose what to accept or not accept based on what you know of the characters themselves and the comic world around them as well as it's inherent rules. glads cannot rip stars in half (has never been shown to have that power), ss's 'infinite' power, pales in comparison to odin's 'infinite power' (which odin has claimed) which pales in comparison to lt's 'infinite' power. all statements made by characters who were lying OR exaggerating . . . and that's not mentioning any villains who ALWAYS lie . . .

and of course, the one fact i neglected to bring up last time as it is self evident by now -- all those impossible feats you mentioned DO share one thing in common -- they happened in PRESENT time on panel. none were flashbacks -- well, except of course for thor's feat which WAS of course later contradicted anyway. as such, those others may be labelled PIS if deemed as such. herc's feat i wouldn't deem PIS -- i say it hasn't happened.

<<Pre crisis feats are there to remind you that characters have done it and will continue to do so.>>

that's a blind fallacy. marvel has ALWAYS represented its characters differently than dc -- more 'realistically'. we won't see anyone in marvel juggling planets or pulling solar systems. never have, never will.

you seem to deny herc's feat is unique in many many ways. comparing it to other feats doesn't work. if glads was discussing a time he ripped a star in half sitting at some shiar bar table clearly boasting about it, and in the background we saw him ripping a star in half (as though he were recalling the incident) would you believe he did it if no one in the bar contradicted him? if you say yes, well . . . i have nothing for you. what you SHOULD do is put the context/setting into the equation and recall what you know of glads and deduce he is full of crap. readers CAN (and at times SHOULD) be discriminating.

like, in this instance, i deduce herc is full of his usual crap.

<<You are a bit of a Thesaurus Leo, but i totally agree with you (I had to read it a few times though) >>

heheh. i've been called worse (by YOU!! 😄) so i'll take it as a compliment. glad actually i've got a few level-headed people agreeing on this. you and x and draco are all knowledgeable. i'm glad it's not JUST me this time . . .

not that oly isn't level-headed . . . 😆

"Indeed, and when we take his into consideration Thor's impressive feats displays seem to be lacking compared to Wonder Womans"

Except she doesnt have many on her own.

"if thas really the way comic book showings should be taken, then that also means that we cant take destroying of planets by ANY normal charcters to be cannon, cause that requires literally THOUSANDS of times more force/power than to LIFT a planet{ a ridiculous concept anyway} what i personally think marvel was tryin to show when hercules lifted the earth or thor lifted the serpeant was their MYSTICAL or mythical strengths, not DIRECT physical strength, because looking at those imaged, hercules was nearly 1/10th the size of EARTH. these kinda things only happen in the mystical realms and should not really be taken PHYSICALLY."

Lets put it this way. No feat that involves plenetary force its accurate. That image does strike as being more simbolic or mistical. But in comic terms its valid as much is a bunch of pll flying around and moving the moon without this one breaking into pieces.

"so i should take spidey beating firelord at face value? wolvie stabbing thanos? the statement is ridiculous. not all feats (on panel or not) should be taken at face value."

As much as dumb those wer, they happened. And they can be used. Its not ridiculous no, a guy can come and say that Wolverine beat immortal Herc with bone claws and as stupid as it is, i cant say it never happened. It wasent even retconned.

So how do we get out of it? Maybe with : Its pis, or it would never happen in normal conditions etc.

"Would never happen in normal conditions" its also another way to describe high end showings.

This example its a high end feat like any other. The man has shown strenght as rare as the examples are in that range. Certainly this is extreme but so it was in the myths.

And so its every feat like that in comics. Your just rationalizing feats when characters have been thro black holes by the dozen and doing things even above.

How to we deal with all this. We only accept feats until a certain limit or what?

"it's why we have the term PIS, as much as i HATE invoking it. matter/antimatter can CERTAINLY be viewed as PIS because the writers had no knowledge of what they were really doing."

But it stll can be used in a feat list or comparation, its still there. Pis or no Pis.

"news flash: of course they are!! glads says he can 'rip stars apart'. should i believe him? how about ss having 'infinte power', as he and others have said of him, or ss being 'power incarnate'? should i just blindly accept those statements as fact? "

So we just chose wich statements work for us.

Not to mention those statements arent far fetched, Surfer has done things like giving life and destroying planets. Hes infinite until a certain level. like the Hulk. Glads case?

If no writer ever said he cant, then you can say he cant. Get it?

Any writter can come up and use it since it was never establized he couldnt and he once stated it.

"glads cannot rip stars in half (has never been shown to have that power), ss's 'infinite' power, pales in comparison to odin's 'infinite power' (which odin has claimed) which pales in comparison to lt's 'infinite' power."

Infinity until a certain level isent "lying". Otherwise Beyonder also lied about the Hulk when he said he tapped into a infinite power source. Even he never showed infinite power compared with the likes of Skyfathers and Celestials for example.

"that's a blind fallacy. marvel has ALWAYS represented its characters differently than dc -- more 'realistically'. we won't see anyone in marvel juggling planets or pulling solar systems. never have, never will. "

Just destroying them like Hulk, Surfer, Brb, Gladiator.....realistic indeed.

"if glads was discussing a time he ripped a star in half sitting at some shiar bar table clearly boasting about it, and in the background we saw him ripping a star in half (as though he were recalling the incident) would you believe he did it if no one in the bar contradicted him? if you say yes, well . . . i have nothing for you"

I nothing at all contradicted yes i would accept it s face value until a writter decided to use it or retconned it as bull.

Thor`s example with the Midgard Serpent. Did that enounter you mentioned stated or showed that the previous one where he pulled Jurggamound off Earth never took place? Was it show him trying and one of them saying "you never did manage to accomplish it?"

If so -that- is a retcon/contradiction/new cannon. Whatever you like to call it. If nothing did then the encounter still exists but the characters wer in diferent power levels according to two different writters.

"you seem to deny herc's feat is unique in many many ways"

I dont find it more unique than someone punching planet size objects into pieces or moving/trying to move one with chains or with bare hands. No i dont.

I also think passing thro black holes are more over the top for example. Or at least they should be.

And while i think they are all ridiculous it doesnt take the account that it can be used when high extreme feats are discussed. But only in that situation.

"not that oly isn't level-headed . . "

Eh i have my moments. This is an issue that happens even when aknowleged people dont agree. Theres always one.

I know the feat its ridiculous, i know it cant be explained other than "its magic".

But saying that when showings like this are required it -cant- be used thats another thing. Especially when you dont have anything to say it didnt happened other than "Herc was bullshitting" -without providing a single proof-.

I said medians are less impacted by outliers because... medians are less impacted by outliers of both extremes. In a dataset with a central tendency around for example lifting 2 tons with a single incident of being unable to lift 50 lbs, or a single incident of lifting 20 tons the mean would be severely impacted while the median would be relatively unchanged, therefore in such cases a median can give a better estimate of the centre of a distribution. STATS101.

Originally posted by olympian
"so i should take spidey beating firelord at face value? wolvie stabbing thanos? the statement is ridiculous. not all feats (on panel or not) should be taken at face value."

As much as dumb those wer, they happened. And they can be used. Its not ridiculous no, a guy can come and say that Wolverine beat immortal Herc with bone claws and as stupid as it is, i cant say it never happened. It wasent even retconned.

But it stll can be used in a feat list or comparation, its still there. Pis or no Pis.

Actually no, they could go into a feats list, but the incidents mentioned by leonidas, and that one about Wolverine vs Herc wouldn't be considered in a versus comparison. In fact Spiderman vs Firelord is the name of one of the two rules pertaining to such incidents.
Originally posted by olympian
Infinity until a certain level isent "lying".
Technically it is. Something can't really be "infinite to an extent." It's a contradiction in terms.

<<I dont find it more unique than someone punching planet size objects into pieces or moving/trying to move one with chains or with bare hands. No i dont.>>

the difference is in the way it is presented. it is also different in that no one else in marvel has ever done such a thing. characters fly through black holes all the time. they bust big things all the time. they do not hold up planets on their shoulders all the time.

<<"if glads was discussing a time he ripped a star in half sitting at some shiar bar table clearly boasting about it, and in the background we saw him ripping a star in half (as though he were recalling the incident) would you believe he did it if no one in the bar contradicted him? if you say yes, well . . . i have nothing for you"

I nothing at all contradicted yes i would accept it s face value until a writter decided to use it or retconned it as bull. >>

then you are not being a very discriminating reader. what if one writer had wolverine lifting a battleship because a kid was telling the story to another kid claiming he saw it happen and there was a pic in the background. no one in the story contradicted it so it would be a true rendition of the fact? again, that's silly. and by your reasoning you can't NOT accept that example just because i took it to a another degree of silliness. it was on panel. it was not contradicted.

use what you know of the character to judge the feat.

and now you're saying even though thor's feat WAS contradicted it is STILL good?? it's just a different impression by the writer?

now who's picking and choosing. you keep saying if it's not contradicted it's good. here is IT contradicted and you STILL say it's good.

<<"news flash: of course they are!! glads says he can 'rip stars apart'. should i believe him? how about ss having 'infinte power', as he and others have said of him, or ss being 'power incarnate'? should i just blindly accept those statements as fact? "

So we just chose wich statements work for us.>>

YES! of course. it's part of being a knowledgeable, discriminating reader.

you choose to blindly follow what you see. i'll choose to use my brain and decide if something is feasible or PIS. guess that's what debate forums are for.

<<Technically it is. Something can't really be "infinite to an extent." It's a contradiction in terms.>>