Marvel Speedsters

I have been making the same argument for quite some time that charcters with similar abilties should have SIMILAR abilites. for example, the hulk can reach land speeds of about 300mph. he clocked 250 in the ultimates. If you read Rhino's old Bio it says he can reach speeds of 100mph, and bcuz of his enhanced physiology he doesnt tire, or at the very least it takes a long time for him to do so. The point is if they can do it whats stopping juggernaut,thing, or colossus?

and how the f **** does Doc Sampson have hyper leaping but Piotr, thing, Juggs, and Hercules doesnt? speaking of which when the hulk leaps he clocks in at nearly mach1, and no not bcuz he jumped one time and caught up to fighter jets[that just means he's got good aim], but becuase whenever he jumps there is this big SWWOOOsshh sound that the artists add. Even when he was fighting Creel in Vegas as Grey Hulk he lured him to the dam by jumpi ng away, and Creel said, "only one guy i know can leap like that, and make that sound." Plus the amount of Energy it would require for hulk to even do that, it would be illogical to think that he WOULDNT be travelling at incredible speeds.

There was a time when Quicksilver was faster than Northstar but not anymore, when he had the Isotpe E at his disposal he would run at speeds rivaling the Flash, but after he stoppped taking it only residual traces remained in his system, but Northstar is completely Boss now. in fact I believe his speed is boiled down to the fact that powerful mutants always put a subconscious limit on their powers, even now, both in the primary continuity and Ulitmate U, he can move faster than the human eye can see him

i highly doubt quicksilver was ever anywhere near northstar's level of speed, even when in his isotope-induced prime. sure, he was "miles away" from exodus in the split second between being taunted and unleashing a mental attack, but northstar's uppermost limit has ALWAYS been near-light speed. functionally, he can move as fast as any solid object could through an atmosphere, but settles around mach 10. at best, pietro met northstar's mark.

and pietro's gifts are very different than namor's, despite similarities. regardless of conjecture mounted to say "namor should be able to do this," he hasn't and won't. nothing on earth could convince me, or anyone else, that namor, hulk, colossus or any other "powerhouse" can match or beat pietro's speeds, or even the lesser speeds of other speedsters. that's why they're called speedsters, and the other guys are powerhouses.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, I don't think it was ever explained...

Anyway, the point of this thread is that would another character would have a potential be a speedster, even if they are not officially said as one?

Etc. Colossus: Like Quicksilver, his body doesn't generate fatigue poisons, his legs are way stronger, and his eyes are pretty much unharmable.

The only thing that is missing for him is brain processing things at superhuman speeds.

The again, people like Namor have superhuman reflexes.

Would a character like Namor/Colossus/Hulk be able to run with superhuman speeds?

The Hulk can

marvel needs an earth-bound speedster that can do the whole flash thing (though maybe only kid flash level, rather than wally west...)

Originally posted by Disappear

and pietro's gifts are very different than namor's, despite similarities. regardless of conjecture mounted to say "namor should be able to do this," he hasn't and won't. nothing on earth could convince me, or anyone else, that namor, hulk, colossus or any other "powerhouse" can match or beat pietro's speeds, or even the lesser speeds of other speedsters. that's why they're called speedsters, and the other guys are powerhouses.

What is the biggest difference?

I think the strong guys could very well go with Classic Quicksilver speed which is something like 200 mph, if I am not wrong.

well to say pierto wasnt anywhere near him is quite a bit of a stretch. you must realize that when Pitero was topping off at 186 Northstart could only power up after touching his sister.....ergo all way back in the day.the mid to late 80s to be exact. quicksilver had gotten an unexplained upgrade even b4 his brush with the E. and his cruising speed was about mach 5, and could max out at about mach 10. therefore he was generally more qiucker that northstart who until recently was bout mach 2 cruising, and mach 5 max...running, but he was shown to fly faster than the black bird which is a hypersonic jet. so he flew at 5 and over.

that being said it wasnt until more recently(early2000's)when marvel did thier upheaval of all the charcters via 2nd mutation. that all of a sudden his powers were explained differently. it wasnt explained whether or not he had gone thru a second mutation himself but some writer guy chose the opporuntiy to change the description off his powers regardless. first it was "just a guy" with the mutant ability to move at incredible speeds. fly at similar speeds, and when in contact with his sister Aurora, able to generate a blinding light,.....which gave him a slight power booost but now its the ability to utilize the atomic motion within his molecules to propel his body at superhuman speeds. what the f **** is that all about....although its cool as hell😄

Originally posted by Disappear
i and pietro's gifts are very different than namor's, despite similarities. regardless of conjecture mounted to say "namor should be able to do this," he hasn't and won't. nothing on earth could convince me, or anyone else, that namor, hulk, colossus or any other "powerhouse" can match or beat pietro's speeds, or even the lesser speeds of other speedsters. that's why they're called speedsters, and the other guys are powerhouses.

true, but i think the main jist of the argument(at least for me),is the same way that flash marveled over the fact that superman could run as fast as he could just by sheer locomotion, of his muscle strentgh what is stopping chacrters who are way up there in strentgh, and has killer tensile strentgh in their muscles and tendons to run fast? now i am not saying take off like a speedster but i mean if you take a guy like colossus, or thing who can operate at peak levels for days if not weeks b4 fatigue sets in, and juggerbaut who doesnt tire at all. dont you think its feasible that once they start running bcuz thier so strong thier just gonna keep on accelerating and accelerating til they reach "super" speeds?

first, i agree that most powerhouses can move at speeds greater than your average human, likely better than an olympic athlete. but to just say you "think" they should be able to run as fast as several hundred miles per hour is just a thought. certain powerhouses have been gifted with super-speed as an additional gift; most notable among them is warpath, who possesses strength equal to colossus, but is also able to run at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour. he is a mutant with hybrid physiology between powerhouses and speedsters, making him a good bit of both. but to simple stir up the idea that super-strength equals super-speed is unfounded. sure, if you're really strong, you're probably quicker than most; and if you're really quick, you're probably stronger than most. but that doesn't mean the two aren't exclusive gifts, and you can't just "assume" someone can perform certain stunts because of their make-up.

manjaro, you've got your facts wrong. northstar's power has ALWAYS been the alteration of his body's kinetic energies at a fundamental level. as far back as his first appearances in alpha flight, he was hitting mach 10 as a "cruising speed," as was aurora, and on contact their bodies would complete a genetic loop that allowed the release of light. aurora had herself genetically modified by walter langkowski, which made her capable of generating light on her own (at half the intensity she could previously when in contact with her brother,) and also limited her speeds to mach 1. northstar's powers eventually adapted to the "touching aurora makes us stop" scenario, and he was able to create light on his own without compromising his speed. no need to say "HIS POWERS WERE COMPLETELY REVAMPED, AND HE MAY HAVE HAD A SECONDARY MUTATION AND BLAAAAAH!" call it writer's folly, if you want.

quicksilver, however, was only able to hit 175 officially. he performed speed stunts that made that limit seem unreasonable, but there was no evidence to say his powers were enhanced pre-isotope E. when directly exposing himself to the isotope, he was hitting speeds that are superior to how he operates now [his powers settled at an increased level after exposure to the isotope stopped,] but he wasn't hitting mach 10. no evidence to say he was. and, even under the assumption that he was, it still doesn't match the ever-present potential of northstar to hit 99% of the speed of light. northstar is, was, and will be faster than quicksilver in terms of pure speed (despite magneto's opinion to the contrary,) though their powers are vastly different.

again, to differentiate between those who are strong and those who are fast, i could go into depth about muscles. there are two different types of muscular fiber, which need various levels of enhancement to permit different feats. powerhouses get their slow-twitch fibers enhanced to the umpteenth degree, letting them lift incredible weights. their fast-twitch muscles, which specialize in repeated movements without much resistance, may be enhanced, permitting enhanced reflexes (namor,) but that doesn't imply superhuman running speeds. sure, namor can react like a devil, and in your previously-posted scan, he even caught missiles from point-blank range. but his fast-twitch muscles only moved his arms up, and his slow-twitch muscles actually tensed and stopped the missiles dead in their tracks. as a powerhouse, his slow-twitch muscles are much more enhanced than his fast-twitch muscles.

warpath, apparently, has equally enhanced muscular fibers, or at least his fast-twitch muscle fibers are enhanced well past the average for a man of his strength. quicksilver, on the other hand, has incredibly enhanced fast-twitch muscle fibers, letting him pump his arms and legs dozens, if not hundreds, of times per second. his slow-twitch muscle fibers are enhanced to a far weaker degree, though still to moderately superhuman levels.

running requires slow-twitch fibers that aren't weak, but need not be exceptionally strong, and fast-twitch fibers that are strengthened well past the average. lifting incredible amounts of weights requires slow-twitch muscles that can tense and flex under great strain, but hardly requires enhanced fast-twitch muscular fiber... with that simple rational, simple in the sense that it's just anatomy, you can see why most powerhouses aren't dashing from state to state in no time flat...

Makkari was supposedly one of the fastest beings in Marvel as he won that galactic race with every other speedster. Was Buried Alien(Barry Allen. Buried Alien is what he said in that comic) in the second race too? I know he won the first race, but I don't recall if he was in the second? If he was in the second race, Barry got beat.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Makkari was supposedly one of the fastest beings in Marvel as he won that galactic race with every other speedster. Was Buried Alien(Barry Allen. Buried Alien is what he said in that comic) in the second race too? I know he won the first race, but I don't recall if he was in the second? If he was in the second race, Barry got beat.

Odd, Northstar and Aurora were not in either competition

Oh I'm pretty sure he was in it, but at that time he went by the name Fast-Forward. Mihkail won, but was permately stuck in hyper-space, but "buried" saved him. So Mihkail agreed to help Buried get back to his universe and off they went.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Odd, Northstar and Aurora were not in either competition

Oh I'm pretty sure he was in it, but at that time he went by the name Fast-Forward. Mihkail won, but was permately stuck in hyper-space, but "buried" saved him. So Mihkail agreed to help Buried get back to his universe and off they went.

Ahhhh now I remember. Runner was kinda disappointed that they both left. I swear Runner looks like a male ballerina running through space.

P.S. I think if Northstar had been in this competition, I think he would have done quite well written to potential. He would have gotten like 3rd or 4th place.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Ahhhh now I remember. Runner was kinda disappointed that they both left. I swear Runner looks like a male ballerina running through space.

P.S. I think if Northstar had been in this competition, I think he would have done quite well written to potential. He would have gotten like 3rd or 4th place.

Yep, he was upset they left together. He may look like a ballerina, but he did beat Surfer....so I would be careful what you say around him.

It's been a long time since I read it, what were the results of the race? (1st, 2nd, 3rd?). Also if Runner didn't make it normal Earth atmosphere he could have dominated. Since he can only go 99% of light speed, but by doing so would cause him and the environment great harm.

Originally posted by Disappear
first, i agree that most powerhouses can move at speeds greater than your average human, likely better than an olympic athlete. but to just say you "think" they should be able to run as fast as several hundred miles per hour is just a thought. certain powerhouses have been gifted with super-speed as an additional gift; most notable among them is warpath, who possesses strength equal to colossus, but is also able to run at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour. he is a mutant with hybrid physiology between powerhouses and speedsters, making him a good bit of both. but to simple stir up the idea that super-strength equals super-speed is unfounded. sure, if you're really strong, you're probably quicker than most; and if you're really quick, you're probably stronger than most. but that doesn't mean the two aren't exclusive gifts, and you can't just "assume" someone can perform certain stunts because of their make-up.

manjaro, you've got your facts wrong. northstar's power has ALWAYS been the alteration of his body's kinetic energies at a fundamental level. as far back as his first appearances in alpha flight, he was hitting mach 10 as a "cruising speed," as was aurora, and on contact their bodies would complete a genetic loop that allowed the release of light. aurora had herself genetically modified by walter langkowski, which made her capable of generating light on her own (at half the intensity she could previously when in contact with her brother,) and also limited her speeds to mach 1. northstar's powers eventually adapted to the "touching aurora makes us stop" scenario, and he was able to create light on his own without compromising his speed. no need to say "HIS POWERS WERE COMPLETELY REVAMPED, AND HE MAY HAVE HAD A SECONDARY MUTATION AND BLAAAAAH!" call it writer's folly, if you want.

quicksilver, however, was only able to hit 175 officially. he performed speed stunts that made that limit seem unreasonable, but there was no evidence to say his powers were enhanced pre-isotope E. when directly exposing himself to the isotope, he was hitting speeds that are superior to how he operates now [his powers settled at an increased level after exposure to the isotope stopped,] but he wasn't hitting mach 10. no evidence to say he was. and, even under the assumption that he was, it still doesn't match the ever-present potential of northstar to hit 99% of the speed of light. northstar is, was, and will be faster than quicksilver in terms of pure speed (despite magneto's opinion to the contrary,) though their powers are vastly different.

again, to differentiate between those who are strong and those who are fast, i could go into depth about muscles. there are two different types of muscular fiber, which need various levels of enhancement to permit different feats. powerhouses get their slow-twitch fibers enhanced to the umpteenth degree, letting them lift incredible weights. their fast-twitch muscles, which specialize in repeated movements without much resistance, may be enhanced, permitting enhanced reflexes (namor,) but that doesn't imply superhuman running speeds. sure, namor can react like a devil, and in your previously-posted scan, he even caught missiles from point-blank range. but his fast-twitch muscles only moved his arms up, and his slow-twitch muscles actually tensed and stopped the missiles dead in their tracks. as a powerhouse, his slow-twitch muscles are much more enhanced than his fast-twitch muscles.

warpath, apparently, has equally enhanced muscular fibers, or at least his fast-twitch muscle fibers are enhanced well past the average for a man of his strength. quicksilver, on the other hand, has incredibly enhanced fast-twitch muscle fibers, letting him pump his arms and legs dozens, if not hundreds, of times per second. his slow-twitch muscle fibers are enhanced to a far weaker degree, though still to moderately superhuman levels.

running requires slow-twitch fibers that aren't weak, but need not be exceptionally strong, and fast-twitch fibers that are strengthened well past the average. lifting incredible amounts of weights requires slow-twitch muscles that can tense and flex under great strain, but hardly requires enhanced fast-twitch muscular fiber... with that simple rational, simple in the sense that it's just anatomy, you can see why most powerhouses aren't dashing from state to state in no time flat...

Wow.

That's a nice post.

Thanks for explaining it. 😄

Originally posted by King_Mungi
It's been a long time since I read it, what were the results of the race? (1st, 2nd, 3rd?). Also if Runner didn't make it normal Earth atmosphere he could have dominated. Since he can only go 99% of light speed, but by doing so would cause him and the environment great harm.

The results of the race where Makkari got stuck on superspeed mode...

1. Makkari
2. Runner (up)
3. Probably Fast Forward (Buried Alien)

Although, at the end of that race, it was announced that one of the contestants was cheating so Makkari started wondering in the middle of the race why BA disappeared all of a sudden, leaving him and the Runner to race it out. Of course, BA stopped racing in order to beat down on the energizer-bunny (the cheating contestant) so that the end would be fair.

Originally posted by 8bitChris
Quicksilver did run an ice cream cone from Genosha to Kenya before it melted.

Wouldn't this have been impossible, given the friction that superspeeds generate?

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Wouldn't this have been impossible, given the friction that superspeeds generate?

He did have it in a box.

Originally posted by Disappear
first, i agree that most powerhouses can move at speeds greater than your average human, likely better than an olympic athlete. but to just say you "think" they should be able to run as fast as several hundred miles per hour is just a thought. certain powerhouses have been gifted with super-speed as an additional gift; most notable among them is warpath, who possesses strength equal to colossus, but is also able to run at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour. he is a mutant with hybrid physiology between powerhouses and speedsters, making him a good bit of both. but to simple stir up the idea that super-strength equals super-speed is unfounded. sure, if you're really strong, you're probably quicker than most; and if you're really quick, you're probably stronger than most. but that doesn't mean the two aren't exclusive gifts, and you can't just "assume" someone can perform certain stunts because of their make-up.

manjaro, you've got your facts wrong. northstar's power has ALWAYS been the alteration of his body's kinetic energies at a fundamental level. as far back as his first appearances in alpha flight, he was hitting mach 10 as a "cruising speed," as was aurora, and on contact their bodies would complete a genetic loop that allowed the release of light. aurora had herself genetically modified by walter langkowski, which made her capable of generating light on her own (at half the intensity she could previously when in contact with her brother,) and also limited her speeds to mach 1. northstar's powers eventually adapted to the "touching aurora makes us stop" scenario, and he was able to create light on his own without compromising his speed. no need to say "HIS POWERS WERE COMPLETELY REVAMPED, AND HE MAY HAVE HAD A SECONDARY MUTATION AND BLAAAAAH!" call it writer's folly, if you want.

quicksilver, however, was only able to hit 175 officially. he performed speed stunts that made that limit seem unreasonable, but there was no evidence to say his powers were enhanced pre-isotope E. when directly exposing himself to the isotope, he was hitting speeds that are superior to how he operates now [his powers settled at an increased level after exposure to the isotope stopped,] but he wasn't hitting mach 10. no evidence to say he was. and, even under the assumption that he was, it still doesn't match the ever-present potential of northstar to hit 99% of the speed of light. northstar is, was, and will be faster than quicksilver in terms of pure speed (despite magneto's opinion to the contrary,) though their powers are vastly different.

again, to differentiate between those who are strong and those who are fast, i could go into depth about muscles. there are two different types of muscular fiber, which need various levels of enhancement to permit different feats. powerhouses get their slow-twitch fibers enhanced to the umpteenth degree, letting them lift incredible weights. their fast-twitch muscles, which specialize in repeated movements without much resistance, may be enhanced, permitting enhanced reflexes (namor,) but that doesn't imply superhuman running speeds. sure, namor can react like a devil, and in your previously-posted scan, he even caught missiles from point-blank range. but his fast-twitch muscles only moved his arms up, and his slow-twitch muscles actually tensed and stopped the missiles dead in their tracks. as a powerhouse, his slow-twitch muscles are much more enhanced than his fast-twitch muscles.

warpath, apparently, has equally enhanced muscular fibers, or at least his fast-twitch muscle fibers are enhanced well past the average for a man of his strength. quicksilver, on the other hand, has incredibly enhanced fast-twitch muscle fibers, letting him pump his arms and legs dozens, if not hundreds, of times per second. his slow-twitch muscle fibers are enhanced to a far weaker degree, though still to moderately superhuman levels.

running requires slow-twitch fibers that aren't weak, but need not be exceptionally strong, and fast-twitch fibers that are strengthened well past the average. lifting incredible amounts of weights requires slow-twitch muscles that can tense and flex under great strain, but hardly requires enhanced fast-twitch muscular fiber... with that simple rational, simple in the sense that it's just anatomy, you can see why most powerhouses aren't dashing from state to state in no time flat...

excellent post but you misconstrue, i wasnt getting into depth about fast and slow twitch muscles, but rather im merely saying that for normal humans we tire becuz of lactic acids and other biochemical build up in our muscles, since we're talking about comic characters here its pretty safe to throw the rules of contemporary science out the window. guys with super duper strentgh doesnt have this affliction thats why im stating that if one character who is not known for "super" speed can achieve at the very least 100mph, due to thier incredible strentgh and durablilty, hulk, rhino, and Warpath specifically....whats stopping others who have the same physical attributes in common? thats all im saying...hell, even thunderbird [b4 he died] could run at about 40mph and he was Warpath-lite.

also on a side note: trust me dude prior to second mutations Northstar was just a mutant who could run and fly fast....the same way that cyclops and havok's blasts were from stored solar energy, then it was that thier bodies were apertures to another dimension of pure energy, now its from the ambient solar radiation and light from stars....the same way that wolverine's amnesia was bcuz of weapon X, but now its bcuz of his unique healing factor...the same way the Collective Man was just a guy who can duplicate himself, but now its "quintuplet brothers who share a bio-psionic link with each other"....the same way gambit was just a ladies man who had a way with words, but now he "has a hypnotic charm causing others to trust whatever he says"...... the same way nightcrawler just "turned invisible" whenever he entered dark places but its now a "light-sapping field that combines with his indigo fur to enable him to blend in with shadows".

the point of my little rant here is, as the need arises, writers choose to give some charcters a cooler look, and explain already known mannerisms and attributes about them a little differntly......like the way sunfire used to just emit nuclear eneries already stored within himself but now its "fires an ionization beam that transforms matter into plasmetic solar fire" i swear to god if you check a handbook circa '86 it will make no mention of Northstar's kinetic atomic what-cha-ma-callit

warpath WAS specifically designed to be strong and fast. rhino's suit and whatnot were designed to replicate the locomotion of a rhino, including a charge. and the hulk's just strong enough to throw himself over several miles distance in one jump, not necessarily run at superspeed.

fatigue toxins such as lactic acid aren't what stops incredibly strong people from achieving great speeds. it's the lack of coordination between the active fast-twitch fibers and the locomotion of the limbs. you can not tire until the world collapses into dust for all i care, it doesn't imply that you're automatically capable of superspeeds. i've already explained why, in the marvel universe, the powerhouses aren't ridiculously fast unless intentionally crafted that way (warpath, beast to a lesser degree...) and i explained why, muscularly, they're not. i even conceded that they can move faster than average humans, like thunderbird hitting 40 miles per hour, due to an overall enhanced musculature. but they're NOT in the same class as speedsters just because they've got muscles! it's just how it is!

and please, don't make me sort through a comic shop's supply of alpha flight issues to find early confirmation of northstar's powers. just accept that he doesn't fit into the "revamped definition" mold, because it'll save me a whole lot of time... and the collective man's hardly a good example, anyway, considering how horribly he was brought back from his silver age fate. also, none of your examples were secondary mutations, anyway, just explanations of a character's given mutation.

Originally posted by Disappear
warpath WAS specifically designed to be strong and fast. rhino's suit and whatnot were designed to replicate the locomotion of a rhino, including a charge. and the hulk's just strong enough to throw himself over several miles distance in one jump, not necessarily run at superspeed.

whoa, whoa, horsee slow down for mintue. it seems to me that you dont realize that we're both making the same exact argument here. all that stuff you said is my point exactly....the fact that extra strong, extra durable characters can run fast wasnt, or isnt to say they had "quote, unquote" "super speed" and all the goodies associated with it [super fast reflexes, hyper metabolism, dozens of sleep cycles, increased percpetion and seeing the world in slow motion]

it is just to say, and let me make this part clear now...........if the 4 charcters i mentioned [Rhino, Hulk, Warpath, and Thunderbird] can achieve great speeds [not super speeds by its most precise definition but super human nonetheless], by means of pure locomtion, especially since its stuff we have seen them do in comics, and listed in thier bio's, what is preventing other characters who are just as strong and just as durable from doing the same thing....even tho we havent seen them do it. that is...all..im..saying... that stuff about they werent built that way doesnt wash with me. i wasnt trying to get into a huge fight about this. plus rhino's suit only provides him protection from harm its his bio enhancemants that make him so strong

also on another side note😄 none of your examples were secondary mutations, anyway, just explanations of a character's given mutation. [/QUOTE]

JUST EXPLANATIONS OF A CHARCTERS GIVEN MUTATION.. my freaking point exactly dude. thats what im trying to say, i never made any mention about secondary mutations in this instance, i was merely trying to illustrate that as the years progress the writers change the exlplanation of thier "given mutations"...I thought that much was abundantly clear. this is what im saying that happened to Northstar, some writer or editor(propably an editor) just changed the explanations of his power to something much cooler ,which you seem to think i have a problem with...on the contrary I think its awesome dude....and if you can show me a marvel publication prior to....oh lets say...1996-97, that specifically mentions him, and his kinetic motion 99% the speed of light trick, and not something to the effect of "a mutant who can run, and fly at incredible speeds and make a blinding light when in contact with his sister "...ill take back everythiing i said him...but everything else stands tho😄

Originally posted by manjaro
that being said it wasnt until more recently(early2000's)when marvel did thier upheaval of all the charcters via 2nd mutation. that all of a sudden his powers were explained differently.

Originally posted by manjaro
also on a side note: trust me dude prior to second mutations Northstar was just a mutant who could run and fly fast

you'll see why your wording confused me with regards to secondary mutations, yes? i think we're saying essentially the same thing in many regards, though i've been tripping and stuttering through what you're saying trying to derive some meaning. if we're on the same page, i apologize for the arguments, though the facts stand that, while powerhouses may get abnormal speed-boosts with their enhancement, they just aren't designed to be super-speedsters. it's all in the anatomy, and big muscles don't imply fast speeds. i don't see why that "doesn't wash."

i really dont feel like calling in another favor at the comic shop, to peel through a few dozen issues of alpha flight looking for that reference... if i can find it in a scan somewhere, i'll post. otherwise, i don't have the time, effort, or clout to prove it...