You're not getting the point. The droids were in no way similar to General Grievous, they were servant and protocol models. And if Arca were a target, why weren't even more ancient and revered Jedi Masters like Vodo Baas, Thon, and Odan-Urr targets as well?
The droids in the ambush were in no way the equivalent of Grievous.
All three were there, yes. And again, the droids that sprung the trap were not Krath War Droids.
Krath War Droids arrived while the ambush was taking place, the modified servant droids had already turned on the Jedi. Thus, the Jedi were already in a heightened state of alert when the war droids arrived.
That, and Arca was assassinated while warning Ulic to be careful, that a Jedi never knows when the next attack might come.
Originally posted by IKC
A: You believed that I wrote that Onderon was undefended. That was not what I wrote. I wrote it was undefended by the Republic, a galaxy-spanning government that had a far greater military force than Onderon could ever hope to amass. That, and if the Republic knew of the planet and defended it, it would mean the Jedi would as well. That didn't happen, period. The Republic and Jedi entered Onderon several hundred years after Nadd's death.
Erm...sorry. The Republic and the Jedi were two different organisations before the Ruusan reformation. Arca Jeth was the watchman of Onderon (and he was several centuries old) although Onderon didn't belong to the Republic and in fact the Jedi (again not the Republic) dispatched an army of Jedi Knights to fight Nadd (therefore the discription of his weapons in KotoR).
B: Yes, and the beast riders are the only foes that we know Freedon defeated. See my above posts along with Janus', it's not an impossible feat for a powerful force user. "One guy walking up to them (the Onderonian defenses)" didn't happen, Freedon took control of their government.
And again: Exar Kun could only hold the Republic forces coming for him back using the "temples" on Yavin 4 to focus and strengthen his force powers. Nadd did it without having nice little "help" like that.
And even when you want to use his ability to "freeze the Senate" as an argument - that isn't enough to proof that he would have been able to take on an entire army of people and pretty much waste them.
C: Yes, Coruscant would be a more dangerous planet to attack than Tatooine, whether it's defended by the Republic or the Empire. I'd like you to tell me how such a statement is illogical.
The statement is illogical because Onderon was a military society fighting a permanent war over decades or centuries against the beast Riders. Nadd took down Iziz and then he took down the beast riders on his own. So he fought against 2 or (if you want to assume he took Iziz in a diplomatic way which is totally out of his character) at least 1 army that was driven by a society that was totally focussed on war.
D: Nadd's armor, if he even had any, is irrelevant. He killed the Beast Riders through Sith magic, an unimpressive feat back then when you realize that Exar Kun could have easily done the same. Like I said,
The point is that the statement "Exar Kun could have easily done the same" is nothing more than assumption since Exar never did something like that.
F: The canon does not state that Freedon Nadd conquered Onderon with a short lightsaber or a blaster. KOTOR hardly says that, and KOTOR is frequently mistaken.
It doesn't matter how he conquered Onderon. Fact is that he did it alone and that's impressive enough if we consider the workings of the Onderon society.
Respect doesn't make him powerful. Arca Jeth was respected for his great wisdom and battle meditation abilities, not his fighting prowess. I can say that he was nowhere near one of the most powerful force users, considering that he was captured on Onderon and killed by a Krath droid ambush some years later while surrounded by hundreds, perhaps thousands of other Jedi.
He was killed by droids which are programmed to kill the biggest threat on the battle field first ? The fact that they used sabotaged protocol droids to do this doesn't make Arca Jeth less powerful. Why would somebody attempt to assasinate a single Jedi and after this throw his "battle droids" against all others with the intend to kill them if this single Jedi is nothing special ? Just because of his battle meditation ? I'm pretty sure there were tons of Jedi able to use battle meditation so why kill this single one ?
Yes, because Nadd's accomplishments are said to be indicative of his great power, and somehow conquering a backwater, nonmember world of the Republic and harassing jedi as a spirit hundreds of years later makes him greater than Exar Kun, who was actually declared the Dark Lord of the Sith and did far more than Nadd could ever achieve, in the process accumulating more knowledge and power than he could use.
Again. Fact is that Exar Kun's spirit with all the power stored in the Massasi temples was not able to instakill force users - neither Luke nor Luke's students although he had the intention to kill them on some ocassions. Nadd's spirit was able to do that. That alone is enough to say that Nadd was more powerful than Kun.
If that isn't enough for you. Sith knowledge decreased over the centuries because they always killed their masters before being taught everything their masters knew. In fact it's part of the Sith philosophy not to reveal everything you have learned to your students. So how would Kun be more powerful than his own teacher (Nadd) whos spirit he destroyed before having learned everything.
And for Nadd's fighting abilities: He wasted his former Jedi Master because he didn't give him the status of a Jedi Knight and he was able to survive (or even win) a direct confrontation with Sadow. That places him on one level with people which Kreia herself thinks of being able to make people in KotoR times (including herself and Exar) look like children fighting eachother with toys when it comes to lightsaber combat. We don't have to take that statement as "truth" but still it seems that Nadd would be quite more skilled in terms of force powers and combat than Kreia or Exar are.
Originally posted by Borbarad
He was killed by droids which are programmed to kill the biggest threat on the battle field first ? The fact that they used sabotaged protocol droids to do this doesn't make Arca Jeth less powerful. Why would somebody attempt to assasinate a single Jedi and after this throw his "battle droids" against all others with the intend to kill them if this single Jedi is nothing special ? Just because of his battle meditation ? I'm pretty sure there were tons of Jedi able to use battle meditation so why kill this single one ?
Arca Jeth was the best there at battle meditation, perhaps?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm...sorry. The Republic and the Jedi were two different organisations before the Ruusan reformation. Arca Jeth was the watchman of Onderon (and he was several centuries old) although Onderon didn't belong to the Republic and in fact the Jedi (again not the Republic) dispatched an army of Jedi Knights to fight Nadd (therefore the discription of his weapons in KotoR).And again: Exar Kun could only hold the Republic forces coming for him back using the "temples" on Yavin 4 to focus and strengthen his force powers. Nadd did it without having nice little "help" like that.
And even when you want to use his ability to "freeze the Senate" as an argument - that isn't enough to proof that he would have been able to take on an entire army of people and pretty much waste them.The statement is illogical because Onderon was a military society fighting a permanent war over decades or centuries against the beast Riders. Nadd took down Iziz and then he took down the beast riders on his own. So he fought against 2 or (if you want to assume he took Iziz in a diplomatic way which is totally out of his character) at least 1 army that was driven by a society that was totally focussed on war.
The point is that the statement "Exar Kun could have easily done the same" is nothing more than assumption since Exar never did something like that.
It doesn't matter how he conquered Onderon. Fact is that he did it [b]alone
and that's impressive enough if we consider the workings of the Onderon society.He was killed by droids which are programmed to kill the biggest threat on the battle field first ? The fact that they used sabotaged protocol droids to do this doesn't make Arca Jeth less powerful. Why would somebody attempt to assasinate a single Jedi and after this throw his "battle droids" against all others with the intend to kill them if this single Jedi is nothing special ? Just because of his battle meditation ? I'm pretty sure there were tons of Jedi able to use battle meditation so why kill this single one ?
Again. Fact is that Exar Kun's spirit with all the power stored in the Massasi temples was not able to instakill force users - neither Luke nor Luke's students although he had the intention to kill them on some ocassions. Nadd's spirit was able to do that. That alone is enough to say that Nadd was more powerful than Kun.
If that isn't enough for you. Sith knowledge decreased over the centuries because they always killed their masters before being taught everything their masters knew. In fact it's part of the Sith philosophy not to reveal everything you have learned to your students. So how would Kun be more powerful than his own teacher (Nadd) whos spirit he destroyed before having learned everything.
And for Nadd's fighting abilities: He wasted his former Jedi Master because he didn't give him the status of a Jedi Knight and he was able to survive (or even win) a direct confrontation with Sadow. That places him on one level with people which Kreia herself thinks of being able to make people in KotoR times (including herself and Exar) look like children fighting eachother with toys when it comes to lightsaber combat. We don't have to take that statement as "truth" but still it seems that Nadd would be quite more skilled in terms of force powers and combat than Kreia or Exar are. [/B]
No, they were not two different organizations. As seen in the TOTJ comics, the Jedi are closely related with the Republic. Arca Jeth was only around two hundred years old at his death, and his Jedi task force had liberated Onderon from the Dark Side only recently. That, and Freedon Nadd had taken Onderon around four hundred years before the events of TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Arca wasn't even born yet. Hence, there was no war against Nadd while he was alive, and those item descriptions are wrong.
And the "Republic forces" coming after Exar Kun on Yavin 4 were all of the Jedi in the galaxy. It's doubtful Kun had the temples working for him, since The Sith War doesn't show him struggling to hold the Jedi or even mention that the Jedi are being blocked in any way. Basically, he shakes his fist in the air and curses Ulic, then unleashes his spirit. (His spirit, by the way, was able to instakill students of Skywalker four thousand years later even while partially insane from solitude (Gantoris) and also able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That's far more powerful than instakilling a puppet of yours.)
Again, you never proved that attacking Coruscant is less dangerous than attacking Tatooine. You didn't once mention either planet in your rebuke. Nadd didn't take Iziz diplomatically, but he certainly didn't fight its army either. It was a coup, assisted by the PR boost he would have gotten from defeating the Beast Riders.
Arca Jeth is described as being the best user of Battle Meditation in TOTJ, so he still poses a threat to the Krath in ways other than his combat abilities. That, and the Krath were students of Nadd, who hated Arca for liberating Onderon. I'm sure Nadd had some doing in influencing the droid ambush.
"If that isn't enough for you. Sith knowledge decreased over the centuries because they always killed their masters before being taught everything their masters knew. In fact it's part of the Sith philosophy not to reveal everything you have learned to your students. So how would Kun be more powerful than his own teacher (Nadd) whos spirit he destroyed before having learned everything."
Easily. Because Nadd hardly learned everything himself. Nadd knew he would never become the Dark Lord, that's why he set up his little empire on Onderon. Exar Kun learned more from the writings of Sadow and others on Yavin 4 and Korriban than he ever learned from Freedon Nadd. That, and he collected a wealth of knowledge from Ossus as the conflagration from the Cron Cluster's explosion was headed toward it.
"And for Nadd's fighting abilities: He wasted his former Jedi Master because he didn't give him the status of a Jedi Knight and he was able to survive (or even win) a direct confrontation with Sadow. That places him on one level with people which Kreia herself thinks of being able to make people in KotoR times (including herself and Exar) look like children fighting eachother with toys when it comes to lightsaber combat. We don't have to take that statement as "truth" but still it seems that Nadd would be quite more skilled in terms of force powers and combat than Kreia or Exar are."
Big deal. Kun wasted his former master, the Grandmaster of the Order, in record time. A confrontation with Sadow is unconfirmed, since Nadd didn't get the fruits of victory (Sadow's amulet, the Massassi). That, and Exar is leagues above those in KOTOR. It's unfair to lump him in with them.
In addition, in order to further disprove the ridiculous notion that Nadd fought an army of Jedi, from TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith:
"Four hundred years before Arca and Thon, a dark Jedi named Freedon Nadd introduced the suppressed Sith teachings to the planet Onderon. Nadd's dark-side powers took hold on the isolated world and flourished unchecked until Master Arca brought together a band of Jedi to root them out."
Emphasis mine.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't remember it saying GG was like Krath War Droids only in appearence, and until I see that I see no reason for assuming they are any different function-wise.
Stope being difficult, Glentract. Re-read the book. Or even better. . .
It helped, of course, to have an indestructible body reminiscent of a Krath wardroid.
Page 113, Paragraph 7, Line 3. Good enough?
Originally posted by IKC
No, they were not two different organizations. As seen in the TOTJ comics, the Jedi are closely related with the Republic.
Ah. That's why they immediatly entered war against the Mandalorians when the Republic did need them, right ? The Jedi were an organisation that wasn't under the command of the Republic - as I said Republic and Jedi were different organisations.
Arca Jeth was only around two hundred years old at his death, and his Jedi task force had liberated Onderon from the Dark Side only recently. That, and Freedon Nadd had taken Onderon around four hundred years before the events of TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Arca wasn't even born yet. Hence, there was no war against Nadd while he was alive, and those item descriptions are wrong."Four hundred years before Arca and Thon, a dark Jedi named Freedon Nadd introduced the suppressed Sith teachings to the planet Onderon. Nadd's dark-side powers took hold on the isolated world and flourished unchecked until Master Arca brought together a band of Jedi to root them out."
Read what you quote. His dark side teachings flourished unchecked which doesn't mean that they didn't whipe out Nadd himself. Actually it would be pretty senseless for them to gave a Jedi the position of a watchman of a planet when the planet neither belongs to the Republic nor has anything special on it. And in fact Arca Jeth knew about the Dark Side of Iziz before sending his students there. He even declared their mission a failure because they didn't sense it.
And the "Republic forces" coming after Exar Kun on Yavin 4 were all of the Jedi in the galaxy.
The Jedi Academy trilogy tells us that their were "hundrets" of Jedi. All Jedi in the Galaxy ?
It's doubtful Kun had the temples working for him, since The Sith War doesn't show him struggling to hold the Jedi or even mention that the Jedi are being blocked in any way. Basically, he shakes his fist in the air and curses Ulic, then unleashes his spirit. (His spirit, by the way, was able to instakill students of Skywalker four thousand years later even while partially insane from solitude (Gantoris) and also able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That's far more powerful than instakilling a puppet of yours.)
It's getting better and better.
a)
Jedi Academy Trilogy tells us that the used the power of the temples to keep the Jedi away for a while to perform an ancient Sith ritual to keep his spirit in the temples (again he used the power of the temples to do that).
b)
He did never instakill anybody. He toasted Gantoris with force lightning, he knocked out Dorsk-81, he force chocked Luke's students - no instakilling.
c)
He wasn't able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That were Kyp's and Kun's combined powers and it's even said that Luke would have been able to resist one of them attacking him on his own. And Nadd did instakill Ommin who was a powerful user of Sith magic - doesn't matter if he was Nadd's "puppet" or another powerful Sith Lord. He got pwned. Period.
Again, you never proved that attacking Coruscant is less dangerous than attacking Tatooine. You didn't once mention either planet in your rebuke. Nadd didn't take Iziz diplomatically, but he certainly didn't fight its army either. It was a coup, assisted by the PR boost he would have gotten from defeating the Beast Riders.
Yes. It's harder to attack Coruscant than to attack Tantooine because Coruscants has 1 Trillion inhabitants and huge planetary defence where Tatooine has 40,000 inhabitants and desert only. But Tatooine is not compareable to Onderon.
And Nadd did first take Izizi and after this he defeated the Beast Riders.
Arca Jeth is described as being the best user of Battle Meditation in TOTJ, so he still poses a threat to the Krath in ways other than his combat abilities. That, and the Krath were students of Nadd, who hated Arca for liberating Onderon. I'm sure Nadd had some doing in influencing the droid ambush.
On this level basically every user of battle meditation was a threat for the Krath.
Easily. Because Nadd hardly learned everything himself. Nadd knew he would never become the Dark Lord, that's why he set up his little empire on Onderon. Exar Kun learned more from the writings of Sadow and others on Yavin 4 and Korriban than he ever learned from Freedon Nadd. That, and he collected a wealth of knowledge from Ossus as the conflagration from the Cron Cluster's explosion was headed toward it.
Please do your homework.
Nadd was directly trained by Sadow so he very likely has seen everything that Kun has seen later. He visited Korriban before he talked Kun into visiting that world. He had pretty many Sith artifacts present on Onderon and Kun was not powerful enough to take out Nadd's spirit before having found the amulett that boosted his force powers. You shouldn't make the mistake and compare the spirit of a force user with the person that he was before. Ragnos - who was the most powerful Sith we know about - got defeated by a NJO Padawan / Jedi Knight when he was a spirit.
Big deal. Kun wasted his former master, the Grandmaster of the Order, in record time.
Does that mean that Kun is strong or does that mean Vodo was weak in this situation ? Ever tried to defeat somebody wearing a lightsaber with a cane ?
A confrontation with Sadow is unconfirmed, since Nadd didn't get the fruits of victory (Sadow's amulet, the Massassi).
I said confrontation and not victory. It's mentioned that he wanted to kill Sadow so he would have tried that. Maybe he went to Onderon because he failed to defeat Sadow but still it's very likely that he faced him and survived that.
That, and Exar is leagues above those in KOTOR. It's unfair to lump him in with them.
He's leagues above Malak, Revan (who might have studied Tulak Hords fighting technique), Nihilus, Sion and Kreia ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Ah. That's why they immediatly entered war against the Mandalorians when the Republic did need them, right ? The Jedi were an organisation that wasn't under the command of the Republic - as I said Republic and Jedi were different organisations.
(Indeed, another KOTOR contradiction. Then again, a lot can happen in fifty years. The Jedi of the times of the Sith War had a Jedi problem to deal with, namely Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. If the Jedi were not tied with the Republic, why bother trying to convince the Republic senators at Qel-Droma's trial not to execute him? Since they're completely separate parties according to you, why would a Jedi's word count any more than a moisture farmer's?)
Read what you quote. His dark side teachings flourished unchecked which doesn't mean that they didn't whipe out Nadd himself. Actually it would be pretty senseless for them to gave a Jedi the position of a watchman of a planet when the planet neither belongs to the Republic nor has anything special on it. And in fact Arca Jeth knew about the Dark Side of Iziz before sending his students there. He even declared their mission a failure because they didn't sense it.
(Of course his teachings flourished unchecked, because the Onderonians had thought of him as a god for his continuous victories over the Beast Riders, made simple through Sith Magic. Again, he did not conquer the people of Iziz.)
The Jedi Academy trilogy tells us that their were "hundrets" of Jedi. All Jedi in the Galaxy ?
(The Jedi Academy Trilogy is incorrect, read TOTJ. One jedi says, "We will rally all the Jedi -- all Jedi -- against our final enemy."
Another says, "Hey, I'm receiving a flood of acknowledgements from all Jedi. Thousands of them." (Emphasis mine)
And again, near the end, the narration reads, "Thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon one small jungle moon."
There you have it. Exar Kun faced the combined might of all the Jedi in the galaxy and managed to survive.)
It's getting better and better.
a)
Jedi Academy Trilogy tells us that the used the power of the temples to keep the Jedi away for a while to perform an ancient Sith ritual to keep his spirit in the temples (again he used the power of the temples to do that).
(Again, TOTJ says and indicates nothing about this. It merely shows Exar Kun strapping himself down in the ritual chamber, the massassi sacrifice, and then the wave of Light Side Force energy sweeping over Yavin 4 and scorching the surface.)
b)
He did never instakill anybody. He toasted Gantoris with force lightning, he knocked out Dorsk-81, he force chocked Luke's students - no instakilling.
(As I remember, Gantoris was killed either instantaneously or almost so. Please tell me what the difference is. Remember that force spirits usually weaken as ages pass. Nadd had only been gone less than four hundred years, Exar Kun was "dead" for four thousand.)
c)
He wasn't able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That were Kyp's and Kun's combined powers and it's even said that Luke would have been able to resist one of them attacking him on his own. And Nadd did instakill Ommin who was a powerful user of Sith magic - doesn't matter if he was Nadd's "puppet" or another powerful Sith Lord. He got pwned. Period.
(The point about Ommin is that since he was Nadd's puppet, he was dependant on him for power. Thus, Nadd's power is easily greater than Ommin's own, especially since Ommin is his descendent.)
Yes. It's harder to attack Coruscant than to attack Tantooine because Coruscants has 1 Trillion inhabitants and huge planetary defence where Tatooine has 40,000 inhabitants and desert only. But Tatooine is not compareable to Onderon.
And Nadd did first take Izizi and after this he defeated the Beast Riders.
(He took Iziz because the people there were fascinated by his abilities. He did not conquer it. They were even more-so fascinated and worshipful of him after he fought the beast riders.)
On this level basically every user of battle meditation was a threat for the Krath.
(Indeed they were. Nomi Sunrider was able to dispel Aleema Keto's sith illusions rather easily, being as talented as she was with battle meditation. However, Arca was much better than she was at that point. As well, Nadd, who taught the Ketos, hated Arca. This made him a target of the Krath)
Please do your homework.
Nadd was directly trained by Sadow so he very likely has seen everything that Kun has seen later. He visited Korriban before he talked Kun into visiting that world. He had pretty many Sith artifacts present on Onderon and Kun was not powerful enough to take out Nadd's spirit before having found the amulett that boosted his force powers. You shouldn't make the mistake and compare the spirit of a force user with the person that he was before. Ragnos - who was the most powerful Sith we know about - got defeated by a NJO Padawan / Jedi Knight when he was a spirit.
(Do you really think Sadow would have taught Nadd everything he knew? Absolutely not, he was a Sith, and not a stupid one. Exar Kun, however, has learned by his death everything (or almost everything) Sadow and his followers had ever written down, as well as secrets from Korriban and Nadd's tomb on Dxun and ancient Jedi secrets from Ossus. And don't bust out Ragnos. For one, spirits get weaker with age, and second his true power is an unknown quantity.)
Does that mean that Kun is strong or does that mean Vodo was weak in this situation ? Ever tried to defeat somebody wearing a lightsaber with a cane ?
(Do some homework. TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith - "With the Force, Vodo can make his simple staff more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"😉
I said confrontation and not victory. It's mentioned that he wanted to kill Sadow so he would have tried that. Maybe he went to Onderon because he failed to defeat Sadow but still it's very likely that he faced him and survived that.
(Tell me where it's mentioned explicitly that he wanted to kill Sadow. And from what I understand, Nadd went to Korriban after leaving Yavin 4, and then to Onderon.)
He's leagues above Malak, Revan (who might have studied Tulak Hords fighting technique), Nihilus, Sion and Kreia ?
(Absolutely. I know people will argue for Nihilus, but he's an anomaly.)