He knew that expanding would mean the end of the Sith Empire, a war would do so. He feared the Jedi because of story's from Ajunta Pall and what they did to those before him, long before him and because he knew that the Sith Empire would eventually collapse into itself if they would try to expand.
Like very Sith empire eventually did.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hardly. He knew they didn't have what it took to take the Republic and TRIED warning Ludo and Naga of their folly
He thought so, he didn't know because he didn't know the Republic or the Jedi. He did know that Ajunta couldn't take the Jedi however and he knew that the Sith Empire would be destroyed in a civil war if they did try. It was fear not lack of power.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, yes, for all we know....we DO know Luke can toss around star destroyers with the force
"Size doesn't matter"
move around Dovin Bassal black holes to destroy forces of Vong,
Yeah. He could manipulate some animals and was close to some heart attack after doing is. Very impressive.
kill seven of the Vong's elite warriors in seconds AFTER cutting his way through an army after arriving from battle with no rest and STILL have enough to take on Supreme Overlord Shimrra and kill him
The Vong that had their armors and weapons weakened so that they couldn't withstand lightsaber hits any longer meaning that Luke killed seven people that didn't have much defence against the lightsaber(s) he was wielding and then he proceeded to take Shimrra getting nearly killed while he had some little force heal aiding him.
not to mention survive as a spirit
Who was only able to communicate with his own family members while Ragnos remained alive for thousands of years and could communicate with everybody he like to...
defeat a small legion of Dark Jedi on his own
Of course this is nothing compared to reigning over an Empire filled with Sith Lords for more than a century keeping all of them under your belt like Ragnos did...
defeat a Dark Jedi who could go head to head with Ood Bnar effortlessly, defeat Palpatine at his ultimte strongest, creates a massive illusion on his own that covers the size of a gargantuan space ship...manages to communicate with crystals...
Defeating Palpatine with the help of his sister. The creation of the illusions isn't a great feat since it was reproduced by minor force users effortless and it lasts for an infinite amount of time without Luke having to focus on it....
If Ragnos could destroy solar systems, would he really be that afraid to expand Sith space?
You do know the difference between "destroy" and "conquer" ? Sadow - even if you estimate that he could only do it with his ship - could destroy planets. Why didn't he simply move in and destroy Coruscant ? Should have been easy for him. And considering the fact that Ragnos was without any doubt stronger than Sadow he could have done the same. But "expansion" doesn't mean "destroy everything else". And Ragnos did know that expanding the Sith space would possibly lead to a war with people that defeated his ancestors. Even if he thought he could win - why risk an Empire you already own to take over another bit of space that you can't control ? Even Sidious with all the military power of the GE and all the superweapons wasn't able to control everything in his Empire.
Originally posted by Borbarad
"Size doesn't matter"Yeah. He could manipulate some animals and was near some heart infact after doing is. Very impressive.
The Vong that had their armors and weapons weakened so that they couldn't withstand lightsaber hits any longer meaning that Luke killed seven people that didn't have much defence against the lightsaber(s) he was wielding and then he proceeded to take Shimrra getting nearly killed while he had some little force heal aiding him.
Who was only able to communicate with his own family members while Ragnos remained alive for thousands of years and could communicate with everybody he like to...
Of course this is nothing compared to reigning over an Empire filled with Sith Lords for more than a century keeping all of them under your belt like Ragnos did...
Defeating Palpatine with the help of his sister. The creation of the illusions isn't a great feat since it was reproduced by minor force users effortless and it lasts for an infinite amount of time without Luke having to focus on it....
You do know the difference between "destroy" and "conquer" ? Sadow - even if you estimate that he could only do it with his ship - could destroy planets. Why didn't he simply move in and destroy Coruscant ? Should have been easy for him. And considering the fact that Ragnos was without any doubt stronger than Sadow he could have done the same. But "expansion" doesn't mean "destroy everything else". And Ragnos did know that expanding the Sith space would possibly lead to a war with people that defeated his ancestors. Even if he thought he could win - why risk an Empire you already own to take over another bit of space that you can't control ? Even Sidious with all the military power of the GE and all the superweapons wasn't able to control everything in his Empire.
1. Which is why Yoda struggles with temple debris.
2. Vong technology creating collapses in gravity long enough tod evastate their forces. Impressive indeed.
3. Funny how those Vong weren't on Caluula and never came in contact with Alpha Red. And notice Luke killed them all by running them through unarmored areas. And by the end of the day, what opponent who was fresh and ready got decapitated by the exhausted warrior who'd fought his way through an army?
4. Could be that he was stuck in a well of dark side energy with Kun. He still showed more power as a spirit to help his students in a nest of dark side energ.y Why does everyone ignore how Ragnos exists on Korriban and needs connections to the world? When Ragnos exists in a well of energy that's an anathema for him, let me know.
5. Yeah, of course, nice dodge. By Sith Lords you mean 'cowardly beaurcrats who go to war to avenge a talking head?'
6. Really? So what he did in Dark Nest and Dark Empire: Create a perfect illusion with no enchancements and DE: Create an illusion of a massive fleet is 'nothing?' And when he beat Palpatine in the saber duel, just him. Leia didn't join in until the force storm
7. IF Ragnos blew up Coruscant, the galaxy'd fall in line mighty quick. Tarkin knew Alderaan served better as an example.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Which is why Yoda struggles with temple debris.
Which is why he lifted basically an entire temple from two Jedi during the Clone War cartoons and tore an entire mountain down before that to destroy some droids. Not even talking about letting ships crash together and thereby destroying them during the attack on Coruscant.
2. Vong technology creating collapses in gravity long enough tod evastate their forces. Impressive indeed.
Later reproduced by Kyp Durron much more easily ?
3. Funny how those Vong weren't on Caluula and never came in contact with Alpha Red. And notice Luke killed them all by running them through unarmored areas. And by the end of the day, what opponent who was fresh and ready got decapitated by the exhausted warrior who'd fought his way through an army?
So for some mysterious reason they didn't use their weapons able to protect them against lightsabers. OK. Luke was too fast. He killed one of them with force powers (guess what Ragnos would do). And I wonder how you keep ignoring the fact that you can't compare "force users" to normal fighters.
4. Could be that he was stuck in a well of dark side energy with Kun. He still showed more power as a spirit to help his students in a nest of dark side energ.y Why does everyone ignore how Ragnos exists on Korriban and needs connections to the world? When Ragnos exists in a well of energy that's an anathema for him, let me know.
How do you get that "well of dark side energy" stuff from. Read the comments of Lucas on the issue. There is no "dark side energy" - just the force used in different ways. Luke utilized the ruins on Yavin 4 to throw some ships out of the system together with his students. Do you want to tell me he used that Dark Side at that point ? The temples were a focus for force powers but not a "well of dark side energy" and the same counts for Korriban. Because something like that simply doesn't exists. All "Dark Side" powers on Korriban where the presence of the spirits of the Ancient and not some mysterious "well of the Dark Side".
5. Yeah, of course, nice dodge. By Sith Lords you mean 'cowardly beaurcrats who go to war to avenge a talking head?'
How often do I have to tell you: They didn't go to war to "avenge" a talking head. They did go to war because they thought that the republic did attack him. And I like to see the "beaurocrats" that behead their "superiors" to get their position. I guess visiting a government agency where you live is live threatening...
6. Really? So what he did in Dark Nest and Dark Empire: Create a perfect illusion with no enchancements and DE: Create an illusion of a massive fleet is 'nothing?' And when he beat Palpatine in the saber duel, just him. Leia didn't join in until the force storm
Read the Black Fleet trilogy and talk to me about "illusions" again.
And yes...Luke defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Mace did it, according to the ROTS script Yoda disarmed Sidious. If Mace could do it, Dooku would be able to do the same and maybe Depa Billaba (being almost equal to Mace in terms of lightsaber fights). And they all would get curbstomped by Ragnos.
7. IF Ragnos blew up Coruscant, the galaxy'd fall in line mighty quick. Tarkin knew Alderaan served better as an example.
So why didn't Ragnos just pick another planet as an "example" ? Demonstrating that you're able to destroy a planet or an entire system - something that people without force powers weren't able to do for 5,000 years after Ragnos time - would surely have some nice effect on the remaining Republic. Don't you think so ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is why he lifted basically an entire temple from two Jedi during the Clone War cartoons and tore an entire mountain down before that to destroy some droids. Not even talking about letting ships crash together and thereby destroying them during the attack on Coruscant.Later reproduced by Kyp Durron much more easily ?
So for some mysterious reason they didn't use their weapons able to protect them against lightsabers. OK. Luke was too fast. He killed one of them with force powers (guess what Ragnos would do). And I wonder how you keep ignoring the fact that you can't compare "force users" to normal fighters.
How do you get that "well of dark side energy" stuff from. Read the comments of Lucas on the issue. There is no "dark side energy" - just the force used in different ways. Luke utilized the ruins on Yavin 4 to throw some ships out of the system together with his students. Do you want to tell me he used that Dark Side at that point ? The temples were a focus for force powers but not a "well of dark side energy" and the same counts for Korriban. Because something like that simply doesn't exists. All "Dark Side" powers on Korriban where the presence of the spirits of the Ancient and not some mysterious "well of the Dark Side".
How often do I have to tell you: They didn't go to war to "avenge" a talking head. They did go to war because they thought that the republic did attack him. And I like to see the "beaurocrats" that behead their "superiors" to get their position. I guess visiting a government agency where you live is live threatening...
Read the Black Fleet trilogy and talk to me about "illusions" again.
And yes...Luke defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Mace did it, according to the ROTS script Yoda disarmed Sidious. If Mace could do it, Dooku would be able to do the same and maybe Depa Billaba (being almost equal to Mace in terms of lightsaber fights). And they all would get curbstomped by Ragnos.So why didn't Ragnos just pick another planet as an "example" ? Demonstrating that you're able to destroy a planet or an entire system - something that people without force powers weren't able to do for 5,000 years after Ragnos time - would surely have some nice effect on the remaining Republic. Don't you think so ?
1. The cartoon's expression of events is 100 percent canon now?
2. When did Kyp Durron do it 'much more reasily?' He did it....on a smaller scale.
3. Luke battered through their defenses and killed them all effortlessly. And by the way: His lightning is the strongest lightning we've ever seen and has never been utilized before. Emerald lightning kills on contact...and did you miss where the Slayers were hardly 'ordinary fighters' and Kyp got beaten down by one of them?
4. What do you call Korriban? Nadd called it a place of the Dark Side, Kun said dark side energy was thick there...if there's no dark side energy explain the lake by Thon, explain the Dantooine cave, explain Yavin....and you'll notice Korriban IS heavy with the Dark Side, same as Byss. The hundreds of Dark Side infused objects there don't really help matters
5. Ragnos was the only member of the ancients with any backbone minus Naga.
6. Yes, ragnos is talked about twice, growls threateningly and suddenly he can curbstomp those people. In the ROTS script, Shaak Ti was killed by Grievous. It never made the final cut, period. And Agen Kolar, who was nearly Mace's equal with a saber SO disarmed Palpatine....and Depa? Weakminded. Dooku? Feared Sidious completely and would never stand against him...and that's not even Dark Empire Sidious in a young, healthy body
7. I don't know, why DIDN'T Ragnos?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. When did Kyp Durron do it 'much more reasily?' He did it....on a smaller scale.
No, Kyp did the exact same thing but much more easily. Where did you get the BS idea that it was on a smaller scale?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Luke battered through their defenses and killed them all effortlessly. And by the way: His lightning is the strongest lightning we've ever seen and has never been utilized before. Emerald lightning kills on contact...and did you miss where the Slayers were hardly 'ordinary fighters' and Kyp got beaten down by one of them?
Where did you get this crap? Kyp fought 4 of them after fighting in a large battle and having been ambushed by them. Luke was standing there and they were in plain view when they came up to him. Kyp was ambushed and didn't not know about their different weapons, but Luke did.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The cartoon's expression of events is 100 percent canon now?
Does that particular scene contradict anything in the movies ?
2. When did Kyp Durron do it 'much more reasily?' He did it....on a smaller scale.
He did exactly the same but more easily.
3. Luke battered through their defenses and killed them all effortlessly. And by the way: His lightning is the strongest lightning we've ever seen and has never been utilized before. Emerald lightning kills on contact...and did you miss where the Slayers were hardly 'ordinary fighters' and Kyp got beaten down by one of them?
He faced four of them and they ambushed him. Same thing Grievous was doing all the time in the clone wars. And we have seen lesser force users than Ragnos performing instakill attacks on other force users.
4. What do you call Korriban? Nadd called it a place of the Dark Side, Kun said dark side energy was thick there...if there's no dark side energy explain the lake by Thon, explain the Dantooine cave, explain Yavin....and you'll notice Korriban IS heavy with the Dark Side, same as Byss. The hundreds of Dark Side infused objects there don't really help matters
It doesn't matter since it contradicts Lucas own statements about the force. The lightside is what balances the force and the Dark Side is "chaos". There are places that are "infected" with the Dark Side because very powerful Dark Side users are burried there (Korriban) or did bind a part of their power to it (the tree on Dagobah). But there is no "well" of Dark Side energies that can be utilized to boost people's power up.
5. Ragnos was the only member of the ancients with any backbone minus Naga.
Oh please stop throwing your bias against the ancient Sith arround here. They duelled for titles, they invented force abilities to kill people effortless, they all dealt with the Dark Side and now nobody except Ragnos and Naga did have any backbone ?
6. Yes, ragnos is talked about twice, growls threateningly and suddenly he can curbstomp those people. In the ROTS script, Shaak Ti was killed by Grievous. It never made the final cut, period. And Agen Kolar, who was nearly Mace's equal with a saber SO disarmed Palpatine....and Depa? Weakminded. Dooku? Feared Sidious completely and would never stand against him...and that's not even Dark Empire Sidious in a young, healthy body
How was Agen Kolar nearly Mace's equal with a saber ? Agen and Saesee were cut down before they did move while Mace already has moved into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying. Hardly impressive as duellists. And it doesn't matter if Dooku fears Sidious (ahahaha) or if Depa is weakminded. They could still outduell him with a lightsaber (and I was talking about lightsaber fights). And what would having a younger body do to Sidious duelling skill - since when does age affect a force user much ?
7. I don't know, why DIDN'T Ragnos?
Would you - reigning over an Empire - risk a war to take over another huge amount of space when you know that you can't control that space with your own forces ? That would be stupid.
The idea that Kyp didn't grab two of them and devastate a large part of Vong forces? And the slayer beat Kyp down on Caluula....Luke killed seven of them, no sweat.
1. Yes, it does: Mace destroying an entire army of super droids on his own. Clone Wars is meant to be exagerrated. Some of the cartoon also contradicts another book
2. Which book?
3. Name a single one who managed to kill them literally in one attack with lightning that kills creatures normally untouchable with the Force, and kills them instantly on contact. Which instakills were these?
4. Every bit of EU goes against that statement and the place on Dagobah. Lucas contradicted himself.
5. If they invented techniques to kill people instantly, where were they? Why didn't Naga and Ludo using them instead of battering swords for a few minutes? Why did Naga have to trick and trap Gav instead of just blown him up? Why couldn't they notice the Massassi uprising?
6. LOE: Dooku feared Sidious. And yeah, Agen was referred to as one of the better swordsman the order had produced and skilled enough to give Mace a run for his money with a saber.
7. Like the Sith would bother to resist him. Just set an obvious trap, kill Simus and watch the chaos unfold
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yes, it does: Mace destroying an entire army of super droids on his own. Clone Wars is meant to be exagerrated. Some of the cartoon also contradicts another book
I was asking if there is any contradiction to Yoda being able to lift a massive amount of stones up or tear a mountain down if he likes to and you come up with Mace Windu ? Nice try to dodge the point. We've seen that Yoda can lift a X-Wing out of a swamp. We have seen that he was catching that metal stuff Dooku dropped on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC in the air. And we saw him catching a pod that Sidious threw down at him with the force. So...is there anything that contradicts the idea that Yoda would be able lift tons of stones up ? No. But thanks anyways.
3. Name a single one who managed to kill them literally in one attack with lightning that kills creatures normally untouchable with the Force, and kills them instantly on contact. Which instakills were these?
Kreia killed three Council Members with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Odan Urr with one force attack. Nadd's spirit killed Ommin with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Nadd's spirit with one force attack.
And read TUF again. Luke didn't kill the slayer with the force attack but just disabled him and then he was killed with a lightsaber.
4. Every bit of EU goes against that statement and the place on Dagobah. Lucas contradicted himself.
You still don't get it. First Lucas can contradict himself as much as he likes. If he states something it's true and everything contradicting it is false. Period. Second: The place on Dagobah was no "well of the Dark Side" it was just a nexus point for Dark Side powers brought there from the outside. That powers can't be utilized to do something and this is what you basically say about Kun and Ragnos - that they utilized the power of a place to do what they did. And this can't be done. Period.
5. If they invented techniques to kill people instantly, where were they? Why didn't Naga and Ludo using them instead of battering swords for a few minutes? Why did Naga have to trick and trap Gav instead of just blown him up? Why couldn't they notice the Massassi uprising?
See above. And some of them won't work against equally powerful people. Force lightning was pretty much useless against Yoda since he could simply absorb it. And what did Naga have to ? Obviously he wanted Gab alive. And what Massassi uprising you're talking about ?
6. LOE: Dooku feared Sidious. And yeah, Agen was referred to as one of the better swordsman the order had produced and skilled enough to give Mace a run for his money with a saber.
Oh not this again. Shadowhunter talks about Qui-Gon being Mace's equal which was obviously false and we have seen in ROTS that Agen is nowhere near Mace when it comes to lightsaber fights otherwise Sidious would have been death before being able to kill a single Jedi or at least Agen would have moved before Sidious cut him down which he - surprise, surprise - didn't while Mace reacted directly.
7. Like the Sith would bother to resist him. Just set an obvious trap, kill Simus and watch the chaos unfold
Err...what are you talking about ? Ragnos could easily talk them into starting a war against the Republic since he was the unquestioned ruler. I was saying that he could have attacked and maybe even defeated the Republic but he couldn't have kept it under control with his own forces. Sidious didn't manage to do that with the greatest military force the galaxy has ever seen including tenthousands of Star Destroyers, millions of other ships, superweapons and billions of storm troopers.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I was asking if there is any contradiction to Yoda being able to lift a massive amount of stones up or tear a mountain down if he likes to and you come up with Mace Windu ? Nice try to dodge the point. We've seen that Yoda can lift a X-Wing out of a swamp. We have seen that he was catching that metal stuff Dooku dropped on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC in the air. And we saw him catching a pod that Sidious threw down at him with the force. So...is there anything that contradicts the idea that Yoda would be able lift tons of stones up ? No. But thanks anyways.Kreia killed three Council Members with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Odan Urr with one force attack. Nadd's spirit killed Ommin with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Nadd's spirit with one force attack.
And read TUF again. Luke didn't kill the slayer with the force attack but just disabled him and then he was killed with a lightsaber.You still don't get it. First Lucas can contradict himself as much as he likes. If he states something it's true and everything contradicting it is false. Period. Second: The place on Dagobah was no "well of the Dark Side" it was just a nexus point for Dark Side powers brought there from the outside. That powers can't be utilized to do something and this is what you basically say about Kun and Ragnos - that they utilized the power of a place to do what they did. And this can't be done. Period.
See above. And some of them won't work against equally powerful people. Force lightning was pretty much useless against Yoda since he could simply absorb it. And what did Naga have to ? Obviously he wanted Gab alive. And what Massassi uprising you're talking about ?
Oh not this again. Shadowhunter talks about Qui-Gon being Mace's equal which was obviously false and we have seen in ROTS that Agen is nowhere near Mace when it comes to lightsaber fights otherwise Sidious would have been death before being able to kill a single Jedi or at least Agen would have moved before Sidious cut him down which he - surprise, surprise - didn't while Mace reacted directly.
Err...what are you talking about ? Ragnos could easily talk them into starting a war against the Republic since he was the unquestioned ruler. I was saying that he could have attacked and maybe even defeated the Republic but he couldn't have kept it under control with his own forces. Sidious didn't manage to do that with the greatest military force the galaxy has ever seen including tenthousands of Star Destroyers, millions of other ships, superweapons and billions of storm troopers.
1. When is Clone Wars ever taken as 100 perent canon? Powers are severely exagerrated...and a group of star destroyers tend to be bigger than a tample. And wiping out an army of super droids'd require a bit more effort. We've seen Yoda exert effort on those tons of stone
2. Exar Kun killed someone as ancient as ODan-Urr who could barely walk with a Force attack? ODan was reknowned for his wisdom, not his skill and power. Kreia killed those masters because of the little hole in the force thing and that she caught them off guard with an attack they'd never seen before...and for NAdd, perhaps if they were fighting and Kun didn't do the equivalent of stabbing him in the back that'd hold weight...
3. The 'Green sparks'? I don't recall anyopne just being paralyzed from them.
4. A nexus point for the dark side? What on earth is the difference? Korriban and Byss'd be the same and for all intents and purposes? I use a quote from Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia."
She has some others describing places as areas of dark energy, I believe....This IS an EU discussion, recall..
5. When the MAssassi got orders from sadow to butcher the Sith on the other ships? Yoda was certainly taken aback by Palpatine's lightning at first. And Naga wanted Gav alive? He certainly vaporized him readily enough...
6. Or maybe those sources or right and your interpretation of them are wrong. Why couldn't Mace save Kit and Saesee? And Qui-Gon was, what, pushing sixty? Maul used his age against him
7. If Ragnos could've destroyed planets so easily, he wouldn't have had much of a problem keeping the Republic under grips...and once more, it took all Sadow's forces to attack three planets...Kressh's fleet wasn't much larger than Sadow's beaten and battered fleet....three planets out of others like Hutt Space, the Chiss, the Ssi-Ruuk, the Yevetha....