Ragnos versus Dark Next Luke

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When is Clone Wars ever taken as 100 perent canon? Powers are severely exagerrated...and a group of star destroyers tend to be bigger than a tample. And wiping out an army of super droids'd require a bit more effort. We've seen Yoda exert effort on those tons of stone

If you want to argue about "Visionaries" being 100 % canon if they don't contradict something than the CW cartoons are canon too if they don't contradict something else. Yoda exerts effort ? He just stands there and is lifting the stones up.

2. Exar Kun killed someone as ancient as ODan-Urr who could barely walk with a Force attack? ODan was reknowned for his wisdom, not his skill and power. Kreia killed those masters because of the little hole in the force thing and that she caught them off guard with an attack they'd never seen before...and for NAdd, perhaps if they were fighting and Kun didn't do the equivalent of stabbing him in the back that'd hold weight...

Odan Urr wasn't known for power ? He could strip people's force connection of and was try to do that to Kun (he did teach Nomi just before and then he wants to do it on Kun). The attack fails for some reason and then Kun does nothing else but point his hand on Odan and Odan dies.
That little "hole in the force" thing comes from the Ancient Sith so it is known to Ragnos. How exactly will Luke protect himself against it considering the fact that it is a technique there is "no defence" against ?
Kun was stabbing Nadd in the back ? Again: Which comic did you read? Nadd tells Kun they should start with some alchemy working to give Nadd a new body. Kun tells him he had enough of him and hits him with the amulet on his hand. Hardly a suprise attack.

3. The 'Green sparks'? I don't recall anyopne just being paralyzed from them.

The slayer dropped on the ground and then gets finished with a lightsaber. Nothing said that the slayer was "dead".

4. A nexus point for the dark side? What on earth is the difference? Korriban and Byss'd be the same and for all intents and purposes? I use a quote from Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia."
She has some others describing places as areas of dark energy, I believe....This IS an EU discussion, recall..

Where does this description say that Korriban is some mysterious well of the Dark Side ? Yeah...it spawns threads because of the knowledge stored their and the Ancient Sith are their, able to pass their knowledge to others. A source of evil doesn't exists. The force is just the force and the Dark Side comes if it is used to do "evil". You are making stuff up on the level of Supershadow...

5. When the MAssassi got orders from sadow to butcher the Sith on the other ships? Yoda was certainly taken aback by Palpatine's lightning at first. And Naga wanted Gav alive? He certainly vaporized him readily enough...

Yeah...they won't be surprised if their own troops turn on them while outnumbering them (an entire ship filled with Massassi VS 1 single Sith Lord). So all the Jedi in the PT were weaklings because getting killed by Clones, right ? And Yoda wasn't killed by Sidious lightning. And yes...Naga vaporized Gav...why didn't he do that before when he could do it. Because he wanted him alive at that point maybe ?

6. Or maybe those sources or right and your interpretation of them are wrong. Why couldn't Mace save Kit and Saesee? And Qui-Gon was, what, pushing sixty? Maul used his age against him

Maul flatened him in a duel. And age ? Dooku being nearly 30 years older than Qui-Gon tooled Obi-Wan (who defeated Maul when just being a knight) and Anakin at once. And what should Mace have done to save Kit and Saesee ? Jump into Sidious blade an hope Sidious won't be able to remove it from his body again ? The point is that Sidious cut down Agen before Agen had shown even the smallest reaction while Mace managed to move into a defensive position in that time - but still Agen is Mace's equal ?

7. If Ragnos could've destroyed planets so easily, he wouldn't have had much of a problem keeping the Republic under grips...and once more, it took all Sadow's forces to attack three planets...Kressh's fleet wasn't much larger than Sadow's beaten and battered fleet....three planets out of others like Hutt Space, the Chiss, the Ssi-Ruuk, the Yevetha....

Sidious had the technology to destroy planets easily and still didn't manage to keep the Republic under grips.
And blah blah. Sadow attacked the Republics capitel planet (something that took the ENTIRE forces of the later Rebels to take over) and two other planets at once and he was beaten by the betrayal and an unpredictable sacrifice by Ooroo. So what do you want to tell me ?

um both of you guys make sokme good points and some worthless ones like borbarad you are arguing about the vong when you should realzie that they are freakin hard to kill even without the force and the force doesnt work against them and thats why its crazy that luke can manifest some sort of force attack that can harm them. and you're using TUF logic on the force i take it. which is dumb because it DOES go against everything lucas intended with the force evil vs good not that "different point of view" crap

and lightsnake qui-qon pushing 60 has nothing to do with why he lost yoda was 900 and the best with a lightsaber in the order even mace mace was 2 in force power and lightsaber skill next to yoda. and i thiink bobarad is right when he says that ragnos may be able to take over the republic but wouldn't be able to keep it under control. cause look at it name 1 country that CAN keep its inhabitants under control.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
um both of you guys make sokme good points and some worthless ones like borbarad you are arguing about the vong when you should realzie that they are freakin hard to kill even without the force and the force doesnt work against them and thats why its crazy that luke can manifest some sort of force attack that can harm them. and you're using TUF logic on the force i take it. which is dumb because it DOES go against everything lucas intended with the force evil vs good not that "different point of view" crap

How are the Vong hard to kill. The average wrong is twice as strong as a normal soldier and we have seen other people than Luke using the force on them and waste entire groups of them.

And I'm not using the TUF theory. Lucas made it perfectly clear. The light side is the "natural" (or balanced) status of the force. The Dark side is unnatural and basically "created" by those who use it. So how can natural "wells" of Dark Side energy exist when something like dark side energy itself doesn't exist ? There is just the force.
Every point where the Dark Side is stong was created by people who used the Dark Side and that power can't be utilized (Korriban is strong in the Dark Side because you have many Sith Lords burried there, the tree on Dagobah is a "dark side place" because it has absorbed the power of a Dark Jedi, Iziz was a dark side place because Nadd and his teachings influenced the place over centuries). Or have you ever seen a place were dark side users are stronger than they are on a "normal" place or light side users get weaker because it's dominated by the Dark Side ? Or vice versa ? I didn't. And that was the entire point.

Originally posted by Borbarad
If you want to argue about "Visionaries" being 100 % canon if they don't contradict something than the CW cartoons are canon too if they don't contradict something else. Yoda exerts effort ? He just stands there and is lifting the stones up.

Odan Urr wasn't known for power ? He could strip people's force connection of and was try to do that to Kun (he did teach Nomi just before and then he wants to do it on Kun). The attack fails for some reason and then Kun does nothing else but point his hand on Odan and Odan dies.
That little "hole in the force" thing comes from the Ancient Sith so it is known to Ragnos. How exactly will Luke protect himself against it considering the fact that it is a technique there is "no defence" against ?
Kun was stabbing Nadd in the back ? Again: Which comic did you read? Nadd tells Kun they should start with some alchemy working to give Nadd a new body. Kun tells him he had enough of him and hits him with the amulet on his hand. Hardly a suprise attack.

The slayer dropped on the ground and then gets finished with a lightsaber. Nothing said that the slayer was "dead".

Where does this description say that Korriban is some mysterious well of the Dark Side ? Yeah...it spawns threads because of the knowledge stored their and the Ancient Sith are their, able to pass their knowledge to others. A source of evil doesn't exists. The force is just the force and the Dark Side comes if it is used to do "evil". You are making stuff up on the level of Supershadow...

Yeah...they won't be surprised if their own troops turn on them while outnumbering them (an entire ship filled with Massassi VS 1 single Sith Lord). So all the Jedi in the PT were weaklings because getting killed by Clones, right ? And Yoda wasn't killed by Sidious lightning. And yes...Naga vaporized Gav...why didn't he do that before when he could do it. Because he wanted him alive at that point maybe ?

Maul flatened him in a duel. And age ? Dooku being nearly 30 years older than Qui-Gon tooled Obi-Wan (who defeated Maul when just being a knight) and Anakin at once. And what should Mace have done to save Kit and Saesee ? Jump into Sidious blade an hope Sidious won't be able to remove it from his body again ? The point is that Sidious cut down Agen before Agen had shown even the smallest reaction while Mace managed to move into a defensive position in that time - but still Agen is Mace's equal ?

Sidious had the technology to destroy planets easily and still didn't manage to keep the Republic under grips.
And blah blah. Sadow attacked the Republics capitel planet (something that took the ENTIRE forces of the later Rebels to take over) and two other planets at once and he was beaten by the betrayal and an unpredictable sacrifice by Ooroo. So what do you want to tell me ?

1. However, the cartoons contradict other things already standing. Sithisis, Prototypes, the Kashyyk and Grievous story? The grievous story and prototypes aren't disputable: Those are in the EU. Sithisis also disputes nothing.

2. He used a force push on Kun, he didn't try to block him. And the hole in the Force thing comes from the Ancient Sith? Here I thought it came from Nihilius...(This I got from Fishy btw.)

3. I said the equivalent of a backstab. Nadd dropped his guard and Kun destroyed him. There wasn't a glorious battle, Nadd got careless.

4. PRovide page number and I'll check it out on TUF

5. KReia also describes Malachor V as of the dark Side...I'll ask Fishy, he knows far mroe about KOTOR II than anyone else. Regardless of how Korriban originally started, its inhabitants have turned it into a nexus of the Dark Side, same as the Dagobah cave, same as the lake by Thon.

6. Sadow pretty much told them to sacrifice themselves and they didn't watch his private troops? And I thought these Sith Lords were worth 'billions' of soldiers...and where was there one Sith lord to a ship? We see the Massassi killing two of them in one panel. Unlike the Sith, the Jedi were fired upon by a legion, perfectly planned as opposed to being told 'you're gonna have to die.' Then "But...what if they resist, Naga?" And what changed with Naga and Gav? NAga clearly intended to kill him and could have done so...and maybe kept his sphere...hell, just leave a few Massassi to greet Gav.

7. Maul wore him out via acrobatics and vigorous technique. Obi-wan's technique didn't focus on that. And maybe, just maybe, MAce could attack while Sidious was? maybe move to save Kit?

8. Sidious kept the republic well under grips. The Rebels weren't exactly the Republic. Moreover, Gav's betrayal was certainly Naga's fault and until then, he was being deadlocked by the Republic forces....is it really not logical to not put the scrappy orphan in command and send him to his attacked planet?

And bor, I agree totally on that bit on the Dark/light side

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. However, the cartoons contradict other things already standing. Sithisis, Prototypes, the Kashyyk and Grievous story? The grievous story and prototypes aren't disputable: Those are in the EU. Sithisis also disputes nothing.

Sithisis makes Sidious at that time look as if he was a force god. Using a Sith ritual and then go and do what he did without anybody notice something is ridiculous. He learned that stuff from a holocron before - where have you ever seen anybody before Sidious doing stuff like that ? And somebody must have been able to do that since somebody did store the knowledge in the holocron. And some things Sidious did (cursing the unborn children of Anakin) did have no effect or are simply ridiculous - creating a storm of force lightning to scare the Younglings in the Jedi temple ? Please...

2. He used a force push on Kun, he didn't try to block him. And the hole in the Force thing comes from the Ancient Sith? Here I thought it came from Nihilius...(This I got from Fishy btw.)

No. He was trying to cut Kun's connection to the force off. The narration at that point says: "He (Odan) reaches deep into the light, drawns on the bright power - as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider" and the thing he tried to teach Nomi on the panels before was to cut Dark Jedi's connection to the force off (as she later did with Ulic). So he tried to use it on Kun and it didn't work.
And no...that "hole in the force thing" was knowledge discovered on Malachor V, an ancient storehouse of Sith knowledge. Nihilus was just the "product" of that ability getting out of control - or the most powerful user of it.

3. I said the equivalent of a backstab. Nadd dropped his guard and Kun destroyed him. There wasn't a glorious battle, Nadd got careless.

What ? Nadd was standing metres away from Kun. Then Kun tells him that he has enough of getting commanded arround by Nadd, tells him "yes. there is power" and then rams the hand with Sadow's amulet into Nadd's spirit. So where was Nadd getting careless or dropping his guard ?

4. PRovide page number and I'll check it out on TUF

I haven't TUF at hand. I guess you know where that fight happens - simply look. Shouldn't take too long.

5. KReia also describes Malachor V as of the dark Side...I'll ask Fishy, he knows far mroe about KOTOR II than anyone else. Regardless of how Korriban originally started, its inhabitants have turned it into a nexus of the Dark Side, same as the Dagobah cave, same as the lake by Thon.

The point was that the Dark Side present at this places can't be used to boost the powers of living force users - otherwise a Sith Lord should be invincible at Korriban or Malachor or Ziost. That isn't the case. Even places that do boost the powerlevel of Dark Siders (e.g. the Star Forge) didn't do enough to keep Dark Siders from getting defeated.

6. Sadow pretty much told them to sacrifice themselves and they didn't watch his private troops? And I thought these Sith Lords were worth 'billions' of soldiers...and where was there one Sith lord to a ship? We see the Massassi killing two of them in one panel. Unlike the Sith, the Jedi were fired upon by a legion, perfectly planned as opposed to being told 'you're gonna have to die.' Then "But...what if they resist, Naga?" And what changed with Naga and Gav? NAga clearly intended to kill him and could have done so...and maybe kept his sphere...hell, just leave a few Massassi to greet Gav.

At the point he killed Gav his sphere was already useless and when he captured him for the first time he needed him to command some battle. And the Massassi that killed the Sith Lords during the fight of Kressh vs Sadow before the Hyperspace War started ? I guess they didn't think about the Massassi being loyal to Sadow or do you think they would have used them to attack Sadow in this case ?

7. Maul wore him out via acrobatics and vigorous technique. Obi-wan's technique didn't focus on that. And maybe, just maybe, MAce could attack while Sidious was? maybe move to save Kit?

Please watch TPM and ROTS again. Maul hit Qui-Gon with the hilt of his lightsaber and then put the blade through his abdomen. Not much acrobatics there...and Obi-Wan as well as Qui-Gon both were form IV practioners which is by far the most acrobating way of fighting.
And how could Mace have attacked Sidious. He had Agen in his way so he couldn't do it directly and when Sidious attacked him and Kit, Sidious was utilizing the lack of space in his favour. I don't see him taking at least Kit Fisto down that easily in a "normal" duel.

8. Sidious kept the republic well under grips. The Rebels weren't exactly the Republic.

But the Rebels did win in the end and had control over several worlds directly or indirectly supporting them. So obviously Sidious couldn't control the entire Republic even with the giant military forces he had.

Moreover, Gav's betrayal was certainly Naga's fault and until then, he was being deadlocked by the Republic forces....is it really not logical to not put the scrappy orphan in command and send him to his attacked planet?

How was Gav's betrayal Naga's fault ? Could he sense Gav's thoughts while producing massive illusions on Coruscant and prevent his meditation sphere getting attacked ? Could he foresee that Gav would run away from the battle he sended him to because his sister showing up ? And logic ? Well...if you want to punish somebody what would be better than forcing him to attack his own beloved planet and watching it getting destroyed ?

And bor, I agree totally on that bit on the Dark/light side

*marks date on the calendar*

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sithisis makes Sidious at that time look as if he was a force god. Using a Sith ritual and then go and do what he did without anybody notice something is ridiculous. He learned that stuff from a holocron before - where have you ever seen anybody before Sidious doing stuff like that ? And somebody must have been able to do that since somebody did store the knowledge in the holocron. And some things Sidious did (cursing the unborn children of Anakin) did have no effect or are simply ridiculous - creating a storm of force lightning to scare the Younglings in the Jedi temple ? Please...

No. He was trying to cut Kun's connection to the force off. The narration at that point says: "He (Odan) reaches deep into the light, drawns on the bright power - as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider" and the thing he tried to teach Nomi on the panels before was to cut Dark Jedi's connection to the force off (as she later did with Ulic). So he tried to use it on Kun and it didn't work.
And no...that "hole in the force thing" was knowledge discovered on Malachor V, an ancient storehouse of Sith knowledge. Nihilus was just the "product" of that ability getting out of control - or the most powerful user of it.

What ? Nadd was standing metres away from Kun. Then Kun tells him that he has enough of getting commanded arround by Nadd, tells him "yes. there is power" and then rams the hand with Sadow's amulet into Nadd's spirit. So where was Nadd getting careless or dropping his guard ?

I haven't TUF at hand. I guess you know where that fight happens - simply look. Shouldn't take too long.

The point was that the Dark Side present at this places can't be used to boost the powers of living force users - otherwise a Sith Lord should be invincible at Korriban or Malachor or Ziost. That isn't the case. Even places that do boost the powerlevel of Dark Siders (e.g. the Star Forge) didn't do enough to keep Dark Siders from getting defeated.

At the point he killed Gav his sphere was already useless and when he captured him for the first time he needed him to command some battle. And the Massassi that killed the Sith Lords during the fight of Kressh vs Sadow before the Hyperspace War started ? I guess they didn't think about the Massassi being loyal to Sadow or do you think they would have used them to attack Sadow in this case ?

Please watch TPM and ROTS again. Maul hit Qui-Gon with the hilt of his lightsaber and then put the blade through his abdomen. Not much acrobatics there...and Obi-Wan as well as Qui-Gon both were form IV practioners which is by far the most acrobating way of fighting.
And how could Mace have attacked Sidious. He had Agen in his way so he couldn't do it directly and when Sidious attacked him and Kit, Sidious was utilizing the lack of space in his favour. I don't see him taking at least Kit Fisto down that easily in a "normal" duel.

But the Rebels did win in the end and had control over several worlds directly or indirectly supporting them. So obviously Sidious couldn't control the entire Republic even with the giant military forces he had.

How was Gav's betrayal Naga's fault ? Could he sense Gav's thoughts while producing massive illusions on Coruscant and prevent his meditation sphere getting attacked ? Could he foresee that Gav would run away from the battle he sended him to because his sister showing up ? And logic ? Well...if you want to punish somebody what would be better than forcing him to attack his own beloved planet and watching it getting destroyed ?

*marks date on the calendar*

1. Given the bad luck Leia and Luke have had in many areas, not to mention his curse on Anakin Solo...The storm seemed more a result of the ritual rather than an intention of it.

2. I don't think calling on the light in the way to block someone is what that was referring to...that generally has more effect and flashy lights than tossing him into a shelf. The whole wound thing wasn't sometihng that could be learned or taught. It was the same as what happened with the Exile.

3. That line of Kun doesn't really imply "Mwahahaha, I'm betraying you." NAdd was drunk on the thought of having flesh again and got caught off guard.

4. I'll find TUF later

5. Even if they don't prevent them from being defeated, they give a booster....remember Kreia talking about Sion on Korriban?

6. I was more referring to when he locked him in the then VERY useless sphere....and I was more referring to after the Hyperspace war, not the ones that killed Horak and Dol

7. By the time Maul preformed the coup de grace, Qui was exhausted...if he hadn't been, I doubt that potshot would've succeeded. And Kit blocked several times feebly before being cut down.

8. by ROTJ, the Republic wasn't doing too well and the Imperial presence controlled much of the Galaxy. The strike on Endor was intended to wipe out the Imperial leaders.

9. I'm just saying: Sadow shouldn't have put Gav in a command position without loyal Sith AND Massassi around...and not put in charge of the attack on Koros Major

2. Lightsnake is right here, this technique could not be learned. Kreia says it couldn't be. What Kreia did however was not normal for her, she still manipulated something that does not have the force through the force to create the effect she did. I don't know but its damned impressive. Anyways the technique could not have been learned or created by the ancient Sith... something that does the same perhaps, but never something like that.

5. You are to weak to defeat him there because he absorbs the force energy of those places. As you might recall all Jedi Masters went to places where they could hide in the force. Korriban, Telos, Onderon, Dantooine, Katarr... Korriban is powerful with the force because like Nai said there is a lot of the force there.

Just wanted to clear those things up, for the rest have fun with the debate I sure as hell am reading it 😛

I don't know why you guys make this brain surgery. During DN Luke had not reached his true potential. He does that in NJO and at full potential is the only time luke would tie or take Ragnos.

You sure you don't mean DE? Cause DN is after NJO I think. (Or a later/latest part of it).

DE is like 13 years BEFORE the start of NJO.

DN is AFTER NJO. Right after.

Yes that was what I ment.

Well then my bad...

Sooo, who wins? Ragnos or DN Luke?