Prove to me that 2+2 does not = 4

Started by whobdamandog34 pages
Originally posted by Trickster
Actually, the burden of proof is on you. You are trying to prove that if someone jumps from a building they will not fly. Ush is simply saying that it is not necessarily the case. There is no grand 'law book' which states that somebody will fall to the ground when they jump from a window. I know you want to say God decides, but that's bull, and a completely different debate.

LOL..can you read? 😕

My point has been that an individual will fall to the ground..based on "Gravity"..lol

Ush pointed out..that this is based on PERCEPTION.

It's up to him to prove how PERCEPTION..can change the law of Gravity..not me..my friend.


Let me give you an example you might be able to appreciate:
Back when Britain had an Empire, and it extended to Austrailia, the white upper class of society believed that the aboriginal peoples had a much lower level of intelligence. In fact, several attempts and plans were drawn up by which native children would be taken from their families and brought up in white society, where their native characteristics and stupidity would be bred out of them. In fact, as we now know, intelligence is not dependent on race. However, in the past, people certainly perceived an absolute rule in which whites were the cleverest people on earth, with rightful dominion over all other races.

I also have to point out that I don't think Ush is saying that gravity doesn't exist, just that it can be doubted.

What the hell does Australia have to do with any of this..lol..
anyway..you can save the topic of racism for another thread..On another note..I hear the KKK is looking for a new recruites in the states..if you give me your e-mail adress...I can send you an application..😆 😆

Moving on..Ush's point about "doubts" doesn't do damn thing. Doubts can't change laws of Gravity. But again my friend..my challenge extends to you as well. Jump off of a building tonight..and tell me how much of an effect your doubts have on gravity?

I'll be eagerly anticipating your response..in fact you can try it right now if you would like..the sooner the better!!!

Originally posted by whobdamandog
LOL..can you read? 😕

My point has been that an individual will fall to the ground..based on "Gravity"..lol

Ush pointed out..that this is based on PERCEPTION.

It's up to him to prove how PERCEPTION..can change the law of Gravity..not me..my friend.

What the hell does Australia have to do with any of this..lol..
anyway..you can save the topic of racism for another thread..On another note..I hear the KKK is looking for a new recruites in the states..if you give me your e-mail adress...I can send you an application..😆 😆

Moving on..Ush's point about "doubts" doesn't do damn thing. Doubts can't change laws of Gravity. But again my friend..my challenge extends to you as well. Jump off of a building tonight..and tell me how much of an effect your doubts have on gravity?

I'll be eagerly anticipating your response..in fact you can try it right now if you would like..the sooner the better!!!

And perception by others besides you?............Do you discount them as what?......There are things just not concrete and explainable by your absolute stance.........Yes but science is.

Whob, avoid trolling. You're already on thin ice.

If you wish to continue the discussion please do so without comments like this -

anyway..you can save the topic of racism for another thread..On another note..I hear the KKK is looking for a new recruites in the states..if you give me your e-mail adress...I can send you an application..laughing laughing

Comments like this add nothing relevant to the discussion, they only degrade it and is only stated to insult/harrass other members. There was no racism in his post, he was merely stating how things that are seen as an "absolute truth" at one point can later be seen as something completely different.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
LOL..can you read? 😕

My point has been that an individual will fall to the ground..based on "Gravity"..lol

Ush pointed out..that this is based on PERCEPTION.

It's up to him to prove how PERCEPTION..can change the law of Gravity..not me..my friend.


Ush did not say that gravity was based on perception. Only your perception of gravity as an absolute force is based on perception.

What the hell does Australia have to do with any of this..lol..
anyway..you can save the topic of racism for another thread..On another note..I hear the KKK is looking for a new recruites in the states..if you give me your e-mail adress...I can send you an application..😆 😆

LOL..can you read? 😕

I was giving you an example, that you have chosen to ignore, that perceptions of 'absolutes' can change. Think of the Earth as the centre of the universe.

But! I know! A way of ignoring an argument! I'll relate my opponent to the KKK!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin's_law

If only you'd been quick enough to think of the Nazis!

This whole thread is his proof that the god of the Bible..ie Christianity is the only way to truth.............Which by the way is based on older mythologies......W....you just haven't don't your homework.

Originally posted by Trickster
Ush did not say that gravity was based on perception. Only your perception of gravity as an absolute force is based on perception.

The laws of gravity are not based on OUR PERCEPTIONS. You all have done nothing to prove that they are.


I was giving you an example, that you have chosen to ignore, that perceptions of 'absolutes' can change. Think of the Earth as the centre of the universe.

But! I know! A way of ignoring an argument! I'll relate my opponent to the KKK!

If only you'd been quick enough to think of the Nazis!

Man..I feel like a broken record..

You equated a bunch of silly peoples OPINIONS to being a TRUTH.

There was no proof behind any of your OPINIONS.

There is PROOF Supporting the existence of gravity.

You have no PROOF which demonstrates the ABILITY of your PERCEPTION to CHANGE the law of gravity.

Fin

Other people seem to read my posts fine, whob. Maybe if you actually put some effort into reading posts properly you would not have a problem either, but as we all know, this is an area where you have trouble.

"Ush's madeup accusation: Whob you are saying the scientific method is relative."

The ONLY person making up stuff is you- disgraceful that you now have to resort to outright lying to try and back your argument.

To remind you what was said- and you cannot erase what you actually said, whob:

As a relativist would say..you are the one with the burden of proof.

I pointed out that whether a person believes in things being relative or not has NO bearing on how they would use the scientific method, and so have no bearing onto whether they would ask for proof or not.

You then tried to change what you said, saying you were applying it to the scientific term of relativity. I then simply pointed out that whether a scientist believes in the theroy of relativity... ALSO has no bearing as to whether they would ask for proof or not.

What you said is all there for everyone to read, whob. You said that a relatavist, in particular, would say that. That is shit. Whether the person is a relatavist or not is irrelevant.

So all the rest you have posted about that is yet further innane, moronic babble.

"If a Scientist admits to not being able to discover FACTS..then he has essentially just discredited Science's ability to discover ANYTHING. It would be a fruitless endeavor for him to even continue being a Scientist..because guess what, he's already determined that discovering TRUTH is an impossibility."

First of all, as I have repeatedly told you, science is about making workable theories, not hard, mathematical-style facts. There is absolutely no contradiction in my words at all to anyone with a brain who reads it- they can never be totally certain, but they can be very close- that is the best they can do.

But even if that were not so, you have very much helped the relatavist point here by reminding people that science needs assumptions to work. That in of itself removes the idea of it being absolute, and that you would never be able to achieve much if you did not make those asusmptions- which is the point, I shall remind you again, that I have happily made many times0 is nonetheless irrelevant, because that does not change the fact that these assumptions have been made.

You might not like the way things would be without those assumptions- you can;t deny that you still make them, and as they are not provable in of themselves, anything you ever do which you rpesent as proof did, in the first place, make those assumptions. Being based on assumotipns, they are not absolute.

"Is there a force..that exists..that pulls us to the ground. Yes!!!
What is my proof? When someone jumps out a window..they fall to the ground. End of discussion.

Again Ush..where is the proof that someone can jump from a building and start flying up in the air?

The burden of proof lies on you my friend..not me.."

Nope, the burden of proof does not lie on me at all. You have to prove that what you call evidence for this is irrefutable and beyond doubt. You can't, because it is only based on your perceptions, and your perceptions might be wring. You keep trying to twist this to say that perceptions are trying to change something. They are not, and no-one is saying this, and your morinic statements in this area still persist. The point is that what you think are th laws of gravity might be entirely wrong.

Perception is NOT truth. I have already outlined how people might perceive 2 + 2 to be 5, and so on. I person can be mistaken and make false conclusions from what he observes. If one person can be, then all can be. Therefore, all might be wrong, and everything you take for granted about gravity might all be nosense- a dream, or illusion.

"THANK YOU. So it doesn't have an effect on ANYTHING..thus making the whole damn point of scepticism moot. "

Wrong! Just because it has no physical effect, that does not make it moot at all. It is in fact spectacularly relevant to the discussion we are having now.

"Suggesting something can happen..does not mean it will happen, and does not disprove what we already know will happen!!!!"

You don't literally KNOW it, because what you know is based on assumotions that might be wrong, so therefore ultimately you are assuming it. What you are stating as fact might not be fact at all- again, all might be illusion or dream.

Descartes had it as a person controlled by an evil demon, altering his perception. Scientists later had it as the 'breains in jars' scenario, all we know actually being false information fed to us. These days, the example would be living in the Matrix. But regardless, the possiiblity exists that all the sensroy ifnormation we get is nonsense. That;s why it can be doubted, and that is why your so-called proven facts have no power within the sceptical argument.

"Evidence Ush evidence..what don't you understand about this?!! I have evidence. People have jumped off of four story buildings..and fallen to the ground. That is not just my PERCEPTION. That is a FACT."

Wrong again, it's an assumption. And once more, I have no need of evidence until you have proven any of it absolutely without ANY assumptions at ANY point. Which you have not done- and never can do.

"Again..what proof do you have of someone jumping off of a Building and flying?!!! "

Your moronic request returns. I have none, offered none, never said I would have any, and have no need of any- such a thing is totally irrelevant. Even if a relatavist could offer proof, he'd only doubt it along with everything else. The point is simply that your assumptions about gravity are not certain- no matter how likely they are, they are still only assumptions. The possiiblity of error exists.

"Again..what the hell does your ability to doubt..disprove?!!"

The doubt in itself does not disprove anything. But until you have eliminated all room for doubt., you haven't actually proven anything absolutely. You cannot do one so you will never do the other.

"Give me some concrete answers Ush.."

What a biased question! It assumes absolutes. Oh well, as it is still only an assumption it, still only feeds into the relatavist idea.

"Okay..I've refuted all the main points"

Again- only in your mind, twisted and incorrect as it is. You haven;t come close to refuting anyhting- you are simply being totally outclassed, time after time after time again.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Man..I feel like a broken record..

You equated a bunch of silly peoples OPINIONS to being a TRUTH.

There was no proof behind any of your OPINIONS.

There is PROOF Supporting the existence of gravity.

You have no PROOF which demonstrates your the ABILITY of your PERCEPTION to CHANGE the law of gravity.

Fin

Your proof is based on assumptions, and therefore has no more value than anything a relatavist says. Ultimately it is all just opinion- you chose to trust your perceptions? That is your choice. Others might not. Neither possibility ranks higher than the other.

Whob, you yourself stated the assumptions science makes. And all science ever does to show anything is based off observation- perception.

Hence all the laws of gravity are simply based on our perceptions.

Yes, nothing is absolute.....except our absolute knowing of knowing all is discovered and developed.....It can never be from our limited knowledge which is always evolving..........To assume so would keep us in the physical limited.....there is always something else to discover.....That's the problem with this kind of thinking....That all has been done and proved and done with.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
How does this detract from the initial point? The point being..nothing is lost. You have readily admitted to this..and now you are just attempting to get into a game of semantics. In order to detract from what we already know to be TRUE.

The equation A + B = C Remains constant based on all the information you gave for the chemical reaction. Again..prove to me that it doesn't..and I guarantee you that you will get the Nobel Prize.

I never said that nothing is lost, mass is lost. Energy is not. It is a very objective thing.

From Wikipedia :

An Exception to the Law of Conservation of Matter Modern nuclear chemistry has been successful in proving that in certain situations (a nuclear reaction, for example), matter can in fact be lost in the sense that the quantity of all matter remaining in the universe is less than what it was prior to the reaction taking place. This idea can best be summarized by the Einstein's equation which is E=MC^2, meaning that the total energy gained by a loss of M, matter, is the product of m and the universal constant C, aka the speed of light or 3x10^8 m/s.

Observe that it says that "matter can in fact be lost in the sense that the quantity of all matter remaining in the universe is less than what it was prior to the reaction taking place."

The mass is not lost to another region in space, it vanishes, it suddenly disappears.

Your ASSUMING that ABSOLUTE TRUTHS are just are dependent upon YOUR Perceptions.

I´m not assuming that, I just asking you "Do you perceive these absolute truths ?" Can you answer it ? A simple yes or no will do.

Now how about you answer my question..

GIVE ME PROOF that when you/Ush jump from a building..The power of your PERCEPTIONS will enable us to fly, instead of fall to the ground.

It's up to you to prove..that your PERCEPTIONS..have the ability to CHANGE REALITY.

My perspective is that me, and Ush will fall to the ground when we jump, I don´t think we will fly.

Again..Nothing is just ASSUMED...it is PROVEN. It has been PROVEN if an individual jumps from a building..they will fall to the ground.

It has been proven relatively to the perspective of empiricism.


My premise has been substantiated by PROOF.
Your premis has not been substantiated by PROOF.

Your premise has been substantiated by what proof is defined in the perspective of empiricism.

How the heck can you not see this?

It should not depend on what I see or not, since what I see is just my perception.

We are subjected to natural laws such as gravity. There is PROOF of this. You all can joke all you want..but you haven't done anything to prove otherwise.

You did nothing more than prove something accordingly to some perspective, in this case, the perspective of empiricism.

To prove that gravity does not exist, I can use the premises "Nothing is real", and "Gravity is something". So : Gravity is something, something is not real, therefore gravity is not real. Of course this perspective is not of the empiricism.

Phew..I had to sift through and cut out some of the "gibberish" again..for the sake of not just repeating the same stuff again and again..here goes..

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The ONLY person making up stuff is you- disgraceful that you now have to resort to outright lying to try and back your argument.

Trying to confuse the masses eh..anyway..Ush....how in the world is this statement..

Originally posted by whobdamandog
As a relativist would say..you are the one with the burden of proof.

..mean the same as this one that you made up..


..the scientific method is relative.

I don't understand your logic my friend. These two statement are completely different.

Anyway Ush..as I've stated to you before.."Relativist" Doesn't just refer to one who practices "Philosophy" my friend. It also applies to one who studies Relativity relating to "Physics." I've explained this to you already..but alas you just don't seem to get it. A Scientific Relativist..could and would indeed view PROOF subjectively like that. That's why Relativism is a moron's way to approaching Science. Nothing can ever be achieved..if everything is always doubted.

Why you continue to argue this "Relativist" point is beyond me..perhaps it is to save face..and to give your ridiculous arguments more credibility. Either way..you've been proven wrong multiple times on this front. If I were you..I'd give it up at this point.


I pointed out that whether a person believes in things being relative or not has NO bearing on how they would use the scientific method
, and so have no bearing onto whether they would ask for proof or not.

You then tried to change what you said, saying you were applying it to the scientific term of relativity. I then simply pointed out that whether a scientist believes in the theroy of relativity... ALSO has no bearing as to whether they would ask for proof or not.

What you said is all there for everyone to read, whob. You said that a relatavist, in particular, would say that. That is shit. Whether the person is a relatavist or not is irrelevant.

So all the rest you have posted about that is yet further innane, moronic babble.

What?! This is just "gibberish" as you would put it Ush. If you believe in Relativity..good for you. However..those who believe in Relativity..are Relativists..simple as that. Regardless of how they use the scientific method...the are still Relativists. Does their belief system change how the scientific method is defined? Of course not. Does it effect the way they use the scientific method? Of course it does.

A Relativist will be using the scientific method..from a SUBJECTIVE perspective...while an Absolutist..will be using the scientific method..from an OBJECTIVE perspective. Simple stuff to understand Ush.


First of all, as I have repeatedly told you, science is about making workable theories, not hard, mathematical-style facts. There is absolutely no contradiction in my words at all to anyone with a brain who reads it- they can never be totally certain, but they can be very close- that is the best they can do.

But even if that were not so, you have very much helped the relatavist point here by reminding people that science needs assumptions to work. That in of itself removes the idea of it being absolute, and that you would never be able to achieve much if you did not make those asusmptions- which is the point, I shall remind you again, that I have happily made many times0 is nonetheless irrelevant, because that does not change the fact that these assumptions have been made.

You might not like the way things would be without those assumptions- you can;t deny that you still make them, and as they are not provable in of themselves, anything you ever do which you rpesent as proof did, in the first place, make those assumptions. Being based on assumotipns, they are not absolute.

More "gibberish" and contradictions..Science needs FACTS to work. Science would not work..if it had no OBJECTIVE truths to it. If Science based itself off of SUBJECTIVE ASSUMPTIONS..and stated that no FACTS existed..it would be a self defeating endeavor. Simple as that.


Nope, the burden of proof does not lie on me at all. You have to prove that what you call evidence for this is irrefutable and beyond doubt. You can't, because it is only based on your perceptions, and your perceptions might be wring. You keep trying to twist this to say that perceptions are trying to change something. They are not, and no-one is saying this, and your morinic statements in this area still persist. The point is that what you think are th laws of gravity might be entirely wrong.

To simplify the gibberish..basically what you are saying is..that I have to prove that my evidence is NOT TRUE...LOL. Do you know how silly that sounds. Can't prove a negative..remember?

Sorry my friend..that just ain't the case. You have to prove your position. I don't have to disprove mine. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Perception is NOT truth.

No sh*t Sherlock. That's what I've been stating all along. YOUR perception doesn't change a damn thing. Prove to me that it does Ush...and this argument will be over. Why is this so hard for you do?

Answer:

Originally posted by Ushgarak
..because it has no physical effect...

Thank you Ush..that's all I needed to know.

You are correct..PERCEPTION..has no effect on REALITY. Simple as that.


Descartes had it as a person controlled by an evil demon, altering his perception. Scientists later had it as the 'breains in jars' scenario, all we know actually being false information fed to us. These days, the example would be living in the Matrix. But regardless, the possiiblity exists that all the sensroy ifnormation we get is nonsense. That;s why it can be doubted, and that is why your so-called proven facts have no power within the sceptical argument.

You are living in fantasy land Ush..the Matrix is not real..It was a movie..by the way where is my sock? 😆 😆

Fin

Just as an Osterage(sp?) lives it life....................head in the hole.....Don't look and it's not there.....

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I never said that nothing is lost, mass is lost. Energy is not. It is a very objective thing.

Observe that it says that "matter can in fact be lost in the sense that the quantity of all matter remaining in the universe is less than what it was prior to the reaction taking place."

The mass is not lost to another region in space, it vanishes, it suddenly disappears.

You are Playing Semantics..again..

Conservation Mass/Energy Law..been a while since I've studied it..but I had to look it up here goes..(wish I had paid attention more in chem/physics class)

Here goes:

Conservation Mass energy
1. In the Universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. We cannot create any new matter or energy nor can we destroy any of the matter or energy we have for the Universe as a whole.

2. We can change matter to energy and energy to matter without gaining or losing any of either to the Universe. Examples:

3. Energy can be changed in form, from one to another, without any loss to the Universe.

4. Matter can be changed in form, or state, without any loss of matter to the Universe.

The missing mass is converted into ENERGY. Simple as that.

Stop playing the game of semantics.

Thus the statement A + B = C Remains TRUE. Because..

NOTHING IS LOST OR GAINED. END OF DISCUSSION.


I´m not assuming that, I just asking you "Do you perceive these absolute truths ?" Can you answer it ? A simple yes or no will do.

Again..this question can be easily turned back around on you...

Doesn't matter if I PERCIEVE them. As I stated before my perception has Nothing to do with whether or NOT they EXIST..or whether or not they are indeed TRUE.


My perspective is that me, and Ush will fall to the ground when we jump, I don´t think we will fly.

It's not just your perspective its the TRUTH. Until you prove it to be otherwise. It will remain the TRUTH.


It has been proven relatively to the perspective of empiricism.

Exactly...and you haven't provided any way to PROVE THAT YOUR PERCEPTION can PROVE/CHANGE anything. Simple as that. So I guess the EMPIRICAL way..represents the TRUTH. At least within this REALITY that we exist in.

However, the empirical way would just be RELATIVE to the one who created it. It would be ABSOLUTE, however, to us.

Now unless you can somehow prove that YOUR PERCEPTION can change REALITY...then you have failed with your argument.


Your premise has been substantiated by what proof is defined in the perspective of empiricism.

Refer to the Above.


You did nothing more than prove something accordingly to some perspective, in this case, the perspective of empiricism.

To prove that gravity does not exist, I can use the premises "Nothing is real", and "Gravity is something". So : Gravity is something, something is not real, therefore gravity is not real. Of course this perspective is not of the empiricism.

Refer to the above once again..

REPEAT:

YOUR PERCEPTIONS/PERSPECTIVES/DOUBTS/WHATEVER don't change ANYTHING!!!

But I'm holding on to that Nobel Prize..when you give me some substantive evidence to prove that they do..I'll be sending it to you first class Mail..as well as a 100,000 grand. 😆 😆

And what others have experienced that you didn't? or dont?.....What class does that class put others into?..............Delusional?....Not everyones perception is the same......It's outside of our physical nature ...

What?.............No answer Whob?

Originally posted by debbiejo
What?.............No answer Whob?

So, the longer that someone does not answer, the more correct you are. Is that how it is here in this thread? 😄

Originally posted by debbiejo
And what others have experienced that you didn't? or dont?.....What class does that class put others into?..............Delusional?....Not everyones perception is the same......It's outside of our physical nature ...

You are clearly delusional if you believe that you can bend the RULES of REALITY based on YOUR OWN PERCEPTIONS.

If one has FAITH in their own PERCEPTIONS..it ain't going to CHANGE a damn thing for them in this REALITY. So If you jump off a building..you will fall to the ground.

Now..if you believe in something that is greater than your PERCEPTION..perhaps..like GOD..for example..then I believe it is indeed POSSIBLE...to do the IMPOSSIBLE. Because all the laws that make up this Reality..are just RELATIVE to the PERCEPTIONS of the one who created it.

This is all my OPINION however..and I have no empirical proof to substantiate it.

Still...Empiricism does equate to TRUTH to us in this reality. We are subjected to it..and can't change it on our own.

Fin

Oh quit saying Fin..............my experiences are not yours, so they are my perception of my reality, not yours as is everybody's..........There is no Absolute truth unless you can unite with what that truth would be....and in this form we cannot.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Oh quit saying Fin..............my experiences are not yours, so they are my perception of my reality, not yours as is everybody's..........There is no Absolute truth unless you can unite with what that truth would be....and in this form we cannot.

You are delusional and misled..there is ABSOLUTE TRUTH..you just lack the ability to comprehend it all.. Look around you..TRUTH surrounds you everywhere through the means of empiricism.

2 + 2 = 4
Hydrogen + Oxygen = Water
Jump off a Building = Fall to the Ground.

These things do not change in this reality. And YOUR PERCEPTIONS have no ability to change them. You do not have the ability to comprehend ALL that makes up TRUTH in this world. If you did..you wouldn't be in this world..

Fin.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
. You do not have the ability to comprehend ALL that makes up TRUTH in this world. If you did..you wouldn't be in this world..

Fin.

Look in the mirror my friend............You're perception is very limited to only what you've read, but not to the exhaustive knowledge of what is out there, and experienced.....I used to be like you.