Originally posted by spetznaz
Batman said so in Hush when he compared Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake (and he also explained why Grayson outgrew the Robin mantle, why Todd died, and why Drake will be the greatest detective in the world some day).
Yes but Batman also went on about how amazing Nightwing is and how he will take centre stage one day. He said Tim will be the world's greatest detective, but not acrobat or fighter. I think he implys that Nightwing will be.................
Originally posted by willRulesnope hes a better fighter also, grayson is just a better acrobat.
Yes but Batman also went on about how amazing Nightwing is and how he will take centre stage one day. He said Tim will be the world's greatest detective, but not acrobat or fighter. I think he implys that Nightwing will be.................
Originally posted by willRules
Yes but Batman also went on about how amazing Nightwing is and how he will take centre stage one day. He said Tim will be the world's greatest detective, but not acrobat or fighter. I think he implys that Nightwing will be.................
To be honest Grayson is most certainly the better acrobat .....by a considerable factor. Drake is good, but he is no Grayson (neither is Batman for that matter).
As for being a fighter Drake is better trained (again due to Batman swearing to ensure what happened to Todd did not occur again), however Grayson has more experience (and age) on Drake thus he is probably a better fighter (as I said Grayson is more capable, but Drake has greater potential).
However being a better ...I mean, currently more capable ..... fighter doesn't mean Grayson is numero uno.
After all Cassandra Cain (the current Batgirl) can wipe the floor with Grayson AND Drake ....at the same time.
Thus it is not mere fighting ability.
As Batman told Batgirl in the FreshBlood arc, Batgirl is by far the superior fighter, but in order to take over part of the mantle of the Bat she would require to enhance her strengths in other areas.
For example detective work.
Yet when it comes to fighting she has no peer when it comes to pure fighting profeciency. In H2H she is simply perfect.
However it takes more to be complete .....being able to beat anyone you meet goes a long way, but if you are facing more intellectual foes you'd better be able to think or else you are going down.
Anyways, Grayson is amazing. Add the fact that Batman tapped him to head the JLA (the freakin' JLA) during the whole Obsidian Age thing, and it goes to show that Nightwing can very well take over the mantle of the Batman when that day comes.
Add to this the fact that Tim Drake keeps swearig that he will NEVER be Batman because he doesn't want to.
However, Batman still said that Drake had the greatest potential, and would one day be the greatest detective. Drake is also the best trained in every single aspect (from combat to detective work), and furthermore he was also given independence at a FAR younger age than Grayson. To be honest Grayson had to 'quit' being Robin (and become Nightwing), and even move to Bludhaven to get some independence.
Bruce however thought Drake was ready at a far far far younger age than Grayson.
Drake has also proved far more profecient mental skills ...even before he was Robin (eg he was one of the few to deduce who Batman was, and he did this as a kid).
Grayson is more capable ....although that is largely a component of more experience due to his age (back to the analogy I used in a prior post of a 35yr old doctor versus a 17 yr old genius).
Drake however has more potential, and if things continue as they are by the time he is Grayson's current age he will basically be Batman. Currently he is ALMOST at Grayson's capability, yet he is far far younger.
Potential vs Capability.
And W8888 was talking about potential, and he also was talking about 'thinking' ability.
In both Drake wins.
Now ...if we are talking about agility .....
Originally posted by The Ion
Grayson quit being Robin and took on the Nightwing name at Age 18. Drake just now moved to Bludhaven at Age 17. Not really far, far younger.
True ....if I was talking about the move to Bludhaven.
While Tim just moved to the 'haven (and I believe he did not move there alone ....he has 'backup' from Batgirl, basically the 2 of them 'taking care' of the city) he had far ore carte blanche at a much younger age than Grayson.
They might have moved to the 'haven at around the same age, but up to the move Grayson was still under the direct supervision of Bruce (and for that matter a far shorter leash).
Drake on the other hand was virtually quasi-autonomous. Not fully so, not even by a long shot (after all this is Batman we are talking about, and even now he still has a lot of influence on all the members of the Bat family ....even Nightwing's Outsiders are still shadow financed by a corporation associated with Wayne enterprises, something that p!$$e$ of Grayson to no end .....something that was even made worse when Slade was impersonating Batman and making the Outsiders do his bidding).
Anyways, the two 'kids' moved to Bludhaven around the same age.
Thus you are correct that it is NOT 'far far younger.'
However I was talking about the granting of any semblance of semi/demi/quasi/any/etc - autonomy.
Drake got it far far younger than Grayson.
Grayson in fact had to leave Batman over the whole nanny factor.
Originally posted by The Ion
Yeah and thats where we fundamentally disagree. You could twist the facts any which way you want to make it seem Dick is still under the leash of Batman. I could twist it to make it seem Time is still under the leash of Batman and Victor Stone.
True.
In fact I could show scans of one thing, and you show scans of the exact opposite.
That's the problem with comics .....since it is fiction, and not only that but fiction penned by different writers, there is always a lot of overlap.
For example (since you call yourself Ion) take GL Kyle.
Kyle has been drawn as having power levels that approach what he had as Ion, and at other times shown struggling to do something that he should be able to do with abounding ease.
As for the Drake/Grayson thing.
The story arc I was quoting from shows Drake virtually been given a blessing by Bruce.
In JLA😮bsidian Age we see Grayson been 'annointed' to lead the JLA (and thus been given a major pat on the back by Bruce).
In KnightFall it was Jean (Azrael) who was given the mantle!
All 3 can be subjectively interpreted.
Anyways ....we can agree to disagree.
LOL.
At least we both believe Superman can beat the Thing (from the Spiky Thing vs Superman thread).
Ok now, quick question. Do you think Tim's independence is due more to his skill level or the circumstances? Dick was taken in by Bruce at the age of 8. He was his father whereas Jack Drake died only recently. Tim always had a family outside of Batman so you could make the case that he was always more independent from Bats.
Originally posted by The Ion
Ok now, quick question. Do you think Tim's independence is due more to his skill level or the circumstances? Dick was taken in by Bruce at the age of 8. He was his father whereas Jack Drake died only recently. Tim always had a family outside of Batman so you could make the case that he was always more independent from Bats.
Good thinking.