Britain Declares - NHS Limits on Fat People

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Britain Declares - NHS Limits on Fat People

U.K. curbs care for fat people
Local health authority near London says obese can't have hip or knee replacements

Ipswich doctor cites financial constraints, says tight budget better spent on slimmer patients
Dec. 17, 2005. 01:00 AM
CAROLINE MALLAN
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

London—Britain's cherished universal health-care system has started denying treatment to fat people.

The first official move to refuse surgery happened last month when a local health authority in Ipswich, northeast of London, announced that obese people would not be given hip and knee replacements.

The move, which has been met with both praise and condemnation, comes amid a story all too familiar to Canadians — hospitals facing cash shortages at a time when the population is both growing and aging.

Dr. Brian Keeble, head of public health for Ipswich, acknowledged that while the added risks of hip and knee surgery on obese patients were a factor in the move, so was the reality of limited resources.

"We cannot pretend that this work wasn't stimulated by pressing financial problems," Keeble said in a statement of the list of services being reduced to save money, with joint replacements being the most controversial.

Keeble added that given the increased failure rate of the procedures on overweight people, the limited amount of money available is better spent on slimmer patients.

The Ipswich group has set a body mass index of 30 — the World Health Organization's definition of clinical obesity — as the threshold at which surgery will be denied.

Currently, one in five men and one in four women in the U.K. are obese.

Michael Summers, chair of Britain's Patients Association, a charitable advocacy group, said the move amounts to discrimination.

"Obese or large people are as entitled to these surgeries as anyone else because they pay for the NHS (National Health Service) just like everyone else does," he said of the taxpayer-funded health-care system set up in 1948. Along with social assistance, it's a key part of Britain's welfare state.

"It is meant to be available to all; that was the entire premise. And one might argue the elderly in need of hips and knees are even more deserving because they have been paying for it even longer," Summers said of the system.

The surgery limit has also ignited debate on whether or not smokers suffering from lung ailments will be the next group to be denied treatment if they refuse to kick the habit, and whether this trend amounts to an attack on the poor, who have rates of both smoking and obesity much higher than middle- and upper-class Britons.

"It's a slippery slope and it's not what doctors are supposed to be doing with their time," Summers said of putting physicians in the role of judge.

But Tony Harrison, of the independent London think tank the King's Fund, said the move amounts to a good dose of common sense given the reality of limited resources.

"Rationing is a reality when funding is limited," Harrison said, adding responsible health-service providers have an obligation to taxpayers to get the most benefit out of the money they're given.

Harrison said the lower success rates for hip and knee replacements in obese patients cannot be ignored.

"Ability to benefit is a key criteria. It is a valid point. If chances of successful outcomes go down, you are wasting money."

The move is also tacitly supported by the government body charged with giving guidance to local health authorities on what they should fund.

While stating in a new report that income, class or age should not be factors in deciding treatment, the body, known as NICE (National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence), leaves room for doctors to deny treatment based on cost.

"If, however, self-inflicted cause/causes of the condition influence the clinical or cost effectiveness of the use of an intervention, it may be appropriate to take this into account," it states.

In a scenario mirrored in Ontario in recent years, the Labour government of Prime Minister Tony Blair has poured money — raised through a dedicated tax — into the health system amid election promises to dramatically reduce wait times for a host of procedures.

While most agree that the system has improved dramatically as a result, local hospitals say they are being forced to make cuts in some areas in order to deliver on wait time promises in others.

In Canada, federal Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh hailed standardized wait times agreed upon last week, which sets 26 weeks as the maximum time a person should be expected to wait for a new hip or knee.

There are currently no formal weight restrictions for the procedure in Canada, although it is not unusual for a doctor to advise a patient to lose some weight before the surgery in order to reduce the risks associated with the anaesthetics used and to speed recovery.

Dr. Peter Schuringa, president of the Ontario Orthopedics Association, said Canada should not take any lessons from the British attempt to ration health care based on a patient's lifestyle.

"Before we start telling people they cannot have a procedure because of how much they weigh, we've got to find more creative ways to improve the system and to finance more procedures," he said in a telephone interview from Kitchener.

Schuringa stressed that finding new ways to fund more procedures in Ontario needs to happen without punishing patients for being overweight.

"That's a very complicated issue, in part because people's ability to exercise and lose weight is often severely compromised if they are suffering from arthritic knee or hip joints," he said. But he added that patients awaiting joint-replacement surgery are often advised to lose weight before their operations

Most doctors also believe that replacement joints last longer if patients are of normal weight. Schuringa noted that may reduce the need for future surgery, saving patients pain and stress and the health-care system money.

In Britain, the debate over how much patients can reasonably expect of a taxpayer-funded health-care system has been raging in recent weeks over both the joint-replacement issue and the death of soccer legend George Best. An alcoholic, he received a liver transplant in 2002, but fell off the wagon after his surgery and his health declined, leading to rejection of the liver.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...2154&t=TS_Home

Super about time!

absolute disgrace...fat people pay taxes as well...they pay for their share of treatment....unlike junkies methadone treatment...

if the problems are due to financial restraints then why in 1 hospital in England are there 4 administrators for every patient?

the sooner the disgusting tax burden that is the NHS is done away with the better

Originally posted by jaden101
the sooner the disgusting tax burden that is the NHS is done away with the better

Yeah, because thats gonna happen.

I am a large guy as is Jade neither of us are fat, we both lift weights. I had a double arthroscopy due to a sports injury two years ago. I have to agree with him I pay taxes. If they are going to be prejudiced against me for lifting weights and being 18 (after Christmas 🙁) feck em.

Originally posted by eggmayo
Yeah, because thats gonna happen.

it should...the NHS is the single most costly public funded department in the UK and is in fact the largest organisation in Europe

it's budget is £90,000,000,000 and when you compare that to the UK's military Budget of about £30,000,000,000 then you can see how costly it actually is

and what do we get for ours troubles?

Harold Shipman and MRSA...great...thanks for that

Originally posted by jaden101
it should...the NHS is the single most costly public funded department in the UK and is in fact the largest organisation in Europe

it's budget is £90,000,000,000 and when you compare that to the UK's military Budget of about £30,000,000,000 then you can see how costly it actually is

and what do we get for ours troubles?

Harold Shipman and MRSA...great...thanks for that

classic - I stopped working for it because it was so badly run and I was paid so little for the shit I had to take.

"Before we start telling people they cannot have a procedure because of how much they weigh, we've got to find more creative ways to improve the system and to finance more procedures," he said in a telephone interview from Kitchener.

Here is a creative solution.......make people lose weight🙂 Don't eat so much.

Originally posted by soleran30
"Before we start telling people they cannot have a procedure because of how much they weigh, we've got to find more creative ways to improve the system and to finance more procedures," he said in a telephone interview from Kitchener.

Here is a creative solution.......make people lose weight🙂 Don't eat so much.

or get the money for peoples operations by taxing companies that produce unhealthy foods simplyy cause its cheaper and keeps their profit margins up...infact tax them to the point that it becomes cheaper for them to produce healthier foods without the need for adding so much salt and fat to try and hide the fact that they use the cheapest and most flavourless ingredients possible

or on the flip side...stop selling off council owned sports facilities to property developers so people can actually get access to free (or at the very least dirt cheap) exercise areas

Originally posted by jaden101
or get the money for peoples operations by taxing companies that produce unhealthy foods simplyy cause its cheaper and keeps their profit margins up...infact tax them to the point that it becomes cheaper for them to produce healthier foods without the need for adding so much salt and fat to try and hide the fact that they use the cheapest and most flavourless ingredients possible

See now this I can ALMOST buy into except that at the end of the day no one makes you eat that. I drive by AT least 30 different fast food places in a day and I don't stop to eat at them or I get very selective.

Originally posted by jaden101
it should...the NHS is the single most costly public funded department in the UK and is in fact the largest organisation in Europe

it's budget is £90,000,000,000 and when you compare that to the UK's military Budget of about £30,000,000,000 then you can see how costly it actually is

and what do we get for ours troubles?

Harold Shipman and MRSA...great...thanks for that


Yeah, but no English government will ever have the balls to suggest anything other than 'NHS Reforms', which consist of something like adding a matron.

Originally posted by soleran30
See now this I can ALMOST buy into except that at the end of the day no one makes you eat that. I drive by AT least 30 different fast food places in a day and I don't stop to eat at them or I get very selective.

its not neccessarily fast food...huge amounts of processed and supposedly healthy meals you can buy in supermarkets are riddled with fats and sugars

even when they say low fat then its usually substituted for salt or sugar anyway...

take ASDA "good for you" range lasagne...it has 60% of the recommended daily allowance for salt in it

http://www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/2003/jun/saltreadyfindings

there is probably another reason for rising obesity that no-one mentions...and thats the fact that manual labour in the home has been virtually wiped out with advancing technologies...this means less exercise (albeit unconventional) and less calories being used up during a normal day

Originally posted by jaden101
its not neccessarily fast food...huge amounts of processed and supposedly healthy meals you can buy in supermarkets are riddled with fats and sugars

even when they say low fat then its usually substituted for salt or sugar anyway...

take ASDA "good for you" range lasagne...it has 60% of the recommended daily allowance for salt in it

http://www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/2003/jun/saltreadyfindings

there is probably another reason for rising obesity that no-one mentions...and thats the fact that manual labour in the home has been virtually wiped out with advancing technologies...this means less exercise (albeit unconventional) and less calories being used up during a normal day

However once again sodium doesn't create obesity hell even fatty foods don't. Its all about portion control. I can eat slop all day and if I don't over consume I still don't gain weight.

Also if manual labor in the home is diminished then thats the fault of the home owner......... I empathize but my sypmathy is lacking simply due to choices people make and then make excuses after they dislike the obvious results of their bad choices.

Originally posted by soleran30
However once again sodium doesn't create obesity hell even fatty foods don't. Its all about portion control. I can eat slop all day and if I don't over consume I still don't gain weight.

Also if manual labor in the home is diminished then thats the fault of the home owner......... I empathize but my sypmathy is lacking simply due to choices people make and then make excuses after they dislike the obvious results of their bad choices.

please...find me a scrubbing board and a mangle in the shop and i'll gladly make my mother wash my clothes with it 😆

Originally posted by soleran30
However once again sodium doesn't create obesity hell even fatty foods don't. Its all about portion control. I can eat slop all day and if I don't over consume I still don't gain weight.

Also if manual labor in the home is diminished then thats the fault of the home owner......... I empathize but my sypmathy is lacking simply due to choices people make and then make excuses after they dislike the obvious results of their bad choices.


Lies.
Anything can make you gain weight in excess.
The whole point of that post was that you don't actually know what the portions are, hence cannot control them.

Originally posted by eggmayo
Lies.
Anything can make you gain weight in excess.
The whole point of that post was that you don't actually know what the portions are, hence cannot control them.

indeed...information on a lot of foods is poor...it may give you a number of grams count...or calories per weight...but who, when feeding their kids breakfast cereal in the morning, has time to weight out the cereal and measure the milk to be added in order to control portion size

and if we go back to the food standards agency site...it list one meal as having over 98% of the daily allowance for salt in it...

Originally posted by jaden101
indeed...information on a lot of foods is poor...it may give you a number of grams count...or calories per weight...but who, when feeding their kids breakfast cereal in the morning, has time to weight out the cereal and measure the milk to be added in order to control portion size

and if we go back to the food standards agency site...it list one meal as having over 98% of the daily allowance for salt in it...


Shit, I should probably read that site.

yeah and knowing something very simple that fat is more then 2 times the calories of carbs and protein is easy. LOL no one needs to measure a serving size so accurately.......litttle calories here and there with an active life is ok............OVEREATING is significantly different then going a bit overboard on a bowl of cereal.

Originally posted by soleran30
yeah and knowing something very simple that fat is more then 2 times the calories of carbs and protein is easy. LOL no one needs to measure a serving size so accurately.......litttle calories here and there with an active life is ok............OVEREATING is significantly different then going a bit overboard on a bowl of cereal.

dont get me wrong?...i'm not trying to remove personal responsbility from people who are overweight...but its not merely a matter of eating

take the rise in overweight children for example...given that as a government policy...physical education classes have been cut to 1 hour per week...even when i was at school (which wasn't that long ago) we got 6 hours a week

topped with the fact that many schools are stopping extra-curricular sports due to teachers not wanting to be responsible for kids getting injured (and thus being sued for their time and effort)

the government seem to make policy of excluding people for more and more reasons...smoker?...not treatment...too old? not treatment...too fat?...no treatment...drinker?...no treatment

and the vast majority of these people have paid massive amounts of money for the NHS so they bloody well deserve to be treated

if you're not going to treat people...dont bloody tax them...

Originally posted by jaden101
dont get me wrong?...i'm not trying to remove personal responsbility from people who are overweight...but its not merely a matter of eating

take the rise in overweight children for example...given that as a government policy...physical education classes have been cut to 1 hour per week...even when i was at school (which wasn't that long ago) we got 6 hours a week

topped with the fact that many schools are stopping extra-curricular sports due to teachers not wanting to be responsible for kids getting injured (and thus being sued for their time and effort)

the government seem to make policy of excluding people for more and more reasons...smoker?...not treatment...too old? not treatment...too fat?...no treatment...drinker?...no treatment

and the vast majority of these people have paid massive amounts of money for the NHS so they bloody well deserve to be treated

if you're not going to treat people...dont bloody tax them...

I agree with most of what you are saying.........I get touchy about it (obviously) because I am passionate about fitness and proper eating. I get a bit tired of hearing people from where I live make excuses ALL the time about eating habbits and lack of exercise. 😉