Good point. The only solution is to ban Superman from all matches.
Well, other heroes hit outta their weight class when the big bad comes around. No matter how retarded it is. But Supes has been around the longest. If we are going to decide that Supes is a multiversal puncher and the DC side really thought that then no more Superman vs. (insert herald lvl char) slugfest only matches as that is literally his main attack every time. Fly really fast and punch it. He has punched everything. Death, time, the source.
Ban him. Leave Powergirl and Supergirl tho.
Originally posted by PhillipThis is the exact reason I don't get involved in most Superman threads, despite him being one of my favorite characters. No matter how many highs he accumulates, the anti-Superman faction will never accept them.
I certainly agree with that sentiment but, at the same time, I know many won't. No matter what Darkseid, or any other New God will ever do, if Superman beats him, that won't matter. Superman is never scaled up. We've been here far too long to think otherwise.The other problem is that the 'Superman is beyond tier classification' doesn't fly, except when he's fighting Darkseid [or insert another skyfatherish villain] from DC. It's a built-in excuse to say 'He's not really that powerful' while not outright saying it - just so that people can continue arguing Hulk, Silver Surfer beat him.
Make a thread where Superman is put up against Thanos? That's where he starts getting stomped, according to many here. Once it goes beyond that, he's not even on the radar. Nobody here believes, for example, that he would even take 1/10 against Zeus, Depowered Tyrant etc.
Now, even averagely powerful New Gods are starting to get portrayed as high-heralds at least - i.e. see how they treat Green Lanterns, how their items [mother box] make people shit themselves with how much power they pack, - and they're basically God's Iphone, how their 'hand-ninjas' stomped the GLC. And at the top [Darkseid], they're starting to flirt dangerously close with universal powers.
Then plain old Superman comes and knuckle sandwiches them.
Are we suppose to close our eyes and continue debating how he's out of trans/skyfathers class?
As for Mother Boxes: yeah, they're ridiculously haxxed. One made Superman essentially TP-proof. Another merged with the GL Central Battery, etc. Ridiculous.
Originally posted by PhillipI suppose she'd almost have to at that point. /shrug
Orion doesn't have many feats - yet, of going 'what does this galaxy do?' - but if he does [and the way New Gods are starting to get portrayed, he will], and Wonder Woman will be portrayed as a peer, what then?Is she going under the 'She defies tiers' as Superman does?
Thing with Orion, though, is that he's never really cut loose yet. Not fully. He always stops just as he starts unleashing the proverbial monster within him, and has Mother Box calm him down.
Originally posted by SquallX
Loved that they brought back Yuga Khan, but mad at the same time that he got beat so fast.Now, did they just retcon Darkseid's past again with the revelation of Khan's past?
Khan already appeared in the new 52 already. He actually has the anti-life equation inside him. Darkseid killed him before he even became full darkseid we all know
Originally posted by carver9Marvel heralds have very rarely operated outside their own tier under their own power/normal abilities without plot devices [i.e. Crunch energies [Surfer vs Tenebrous/Aegis], Belt of Strength, Godblast [Thor] - which, while its his own innate power, is rarely applicable in any kind of fight where the opponent doesn't just stand there, artificially induced anger [see Hulk] etc. etc. Superman has operated outside his pre-defined tier, under his own power more times than the Marvel heroes have done combined and I will chase you out of this forum in a battlezone, if you'd like me to prove that.
@Philo...No, we wouldn't ignore his showings because High Herald tend to operate above their tier on some occasions.
Superman doesn't need to be placed inside the sun to beat Darkseid. Superman doesn't need to concentrate all of his strength into his heat vision to one-shot Despero. The rare times he does [i.e. Final Crisis], he did it to beat Multiversal-Darkseid, so when he shoots out of his weight class, he does spectaculary so.
Without external factors:
If you randomly pluck Superman from the Daily Planet offices and tell him to go rounds with Darkseid who is tearing shit up, he will do so, everytime, and be competitive.
If you randomly pluck Thor, Surfer or Hulk and tell them Thanos is running around, they will fail miserably.
The actual comic support this indubitably.
Originally posted by Galan007👆
This is the exact reason I don't get involved in most Superman threads, despite him being one of my favorite characters. No matter how many highs he accumulates, the anti-Superman faction will never accept them.As for Mother Boxes: yeah, they're ridiculously haxxed. One made Superman essentially TP-proof. Another merged with the GL Central Battery, etc. Ridiculous.
Originally posted by Galan007I'll look forward to that moment.
I suppose she'd almost have to at that point. /shrugThing with Orion, though, is that he's never really cut loose yet. Not fully. He always stops just as he starts unleashing the proverbial monster within him, and has Mother Box calm him down.
Still, the way he treated Hal was ridiculous - and Hal, no matter what uninformed people like to think, has one of the best records in comics. And he did it casually.
@Philo...
I disagree and I don't know why you are interchangeably using Darkseid and Thanos. They are not the same...at all. I'm also surprised that you don't think any of the Heralds you've named couldn't do well against Thanos. Let's also not pretend like Superman has been the only herald to go rounds against Darkseid.
Who else has?
Batman was dying from the suit, and it was incredibly amped.
Diana and Aquaman put his eyes out, and he was still fighting.
E2Alan Scott had to channel multiple Greens just to fight him.
Constantine, one of the more haxxed characters, with plans against the Spectre....was shitting himself..
There's E2 PG? He still beat her down.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who else has?Batman was dying from the suit, and it was incredibly amped.
Diana and Aquaman put his eyes out, and he was still fighting.
E2Alan Scott had to channel multiple Greens just to fight him.
Constantine, one of the more haxxed characters, with plans against the Spectre....was shitting himself..
There's E2 PG? He still beat her down.
Powergirl did amazingly good against him though. To the point that she was stalemating him fist cuff, snatching his eye out and outpacing his Omegas.
Marvel heralds have very rarely operated outside their own tier under their own power/normal abilities without plot devices [i.e. Crunch energies [Surfer vs Tenebrous/Aegis], Belt of Strength, Godblast [Thor] - which, while its his own innate power, is rarely applicable in any kind of fight where the opponent doesn't just stand there, artificially induced anger [see Hulk] etc. etc. Superman has operated outside his pre-defined tier, under his own power more times than the Marvel heroes have done combined and I will chase you out of this forum in a battlezone, if you'd like me to prove that.Superman doesn't need to be placed inside the sun to beat Darkseid. Superman doesn't need to concentrate all of his strength into his heat vision to one-shot Despero. The rare times he does [i.e. Final Crisis], he did it to beat Multiversal-Darkseid, so when he shoots out of his weight class, he does spectaculary so.
Without external factors:
If you randomly pluck Superman from the Daily Planet offices and tell him to go rounds with Darkseid who is tearing shit up, he will do so, everytime, and be competitive.
If you randomly pluck Thor, Surfer or Hulk and tell them Thanos is running around, they will fail miserably.
The actual comic support this indubitably.
👆
Originally posted by carver9
Powergirl did amazingly good against him though. To the point that she was stalemating him fist cuff, snatching his eye out and outpacing his Omegas.
He then casually beats her away - literally backhands her, and she's out. Snatching his eye out did literally nothing.
And she never outpaced the Omegas. She dodged them.
Thor operates out of his tier in spectacular fashion quite a bit relative to the number of his appearances. I'm certainly not going to anoint him beyond high herald. It's flat out dumb. In fact he does this on a more regular basis than Surfer. And still I believe Surfer is every bit his equal in all the ways that matter.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Thor operates out of his tier in spectacular fashion quite a bit relative to the number of his appearances. I'm certainly not going to anoint him beyond high herald. It's flat out dumb. In fact he does this on a more regular basis than Surfer. And still I believe Surfer is every bit his equal in all the ways that matter.
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Originally posted by SquallXInfinity Man and the Forever People #05:
Seriously! How the hell did i missed that? Was that mentioned in Darkseid and Highfather's back story one shot?
Originally posted by celeyhyga17I think my problem is that Superman has preformed vastly more 'beyond-Herald' feats than anyone else in the tier. By far.
Thor operates out of his tier in spectacular fashion quite a bit relative to the number of his appearances. I'm certainly not going to anoint him beyond high herald. It's flat out dumb. In fact he does this on a more regular basis than Surfer. And still I believe Surfer is every bit his equal in all the ways that matter.
...Yet people still think it's acceptable to write-off his plethora of highs as 'outliers' or 'space-cheese' or 'PIS', as though he hasn't regularly operated beyond the Herald tier over the years. Those type of ignorant people are what I find flat out dumb.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Thor operates out of his tier in spectacular fashion quite a bit relative to the number of his appearances. I'm certainly not going to anoint him beyond high herald. It's flat out dumb. In fact he does this on a more regular basis than Surfer. And still I believe Surfer is every bit his equal in all the ways that matter.
