Women and Religion

What are people's perceptions on the patriarchal nature of Christian and Muslim religions? It seems unfair that only men (Pope, Ayatollah, Bishops, etc.) are given all these positions of power and respect in most religions. Where is the representation for women here? Are women happy with this religious social construct? Do they even care?
I don't want to be like that which I criticize so I'm not saying that women MUST have problems with these issues (considering I am a guy), I am just wondering what the view on this issue is from women AND men. All opinions from everyone, please.

If a woman gained power in the Southern Baptist Church, for example, they would stand up and yell about how atheists and homosexuals and Muslims and every one else are going to Hell, just like their male counterparts; if you're going to be a member of a universally intolerant religion, you sort of give up the right to complain when your religion starts repressing you, in my opinion. Same with Islam.

Meanwhile, in liberal Protestant denominations, women are often allowed to rise to positions of power, so it's hardly a universal Christian thing.

From a christian biblical point of view women cannot become priests. Dunno why, its gods idea and seeing as he´s mega powerfull best not argue with him eh. Probably the mood swings and illogical thought pattern women produce.

The muslims with thier covering women up thing hasn´t any basis in the Koran whatsoever and is used to keep women in thier place. The men probably have an inferiority complex or something.

my wife recons women used to be the bosses, even lead armies into war, and that women are the superior sex, utter crap of course but don´t tell her I said that

Your suggesting women would just blindly follow the ideological male concensus of the respective religion they are apart of. So actually there would be no sort variation of ideas. I see your point. Certain religions themselves don't allow room for new ideas and revolutionary thought among their members, so a women in a respectable and more equal position to that of her male counterpart wouldn't really be any different than having some, for example, radically conservative preacher.

Do you really think God said that women can't be priests? Also, just because women in our, and most, cultures are supdued and tend to be very passive doesn't mean they can't be strong and aggresive.

The muslim men who like to have their women dress from head to toe in black robes in 100 f degree weather and then have them always walk 5 feet behind them are definitely suffering from some sort of complex. I don't understand that treatment of women. I don't want to sound like some sort of self-radical liberator who feels these women have to stop following this custom but they should at least be allowed to be educated and taught that there are other cultures where they can dress, talk, and act in a more free way.

It simply reflects a paradigmatic shift in societal views.

This has since swung somewhat back the other way, but it is still obvious in religion, and some cultures.

This is because these are areas of life where we are scared to intrude.

Women used to be in positions of leadership until the Patriarchal church was established and down casted women as sinful, evil, dirty and vile. Before that women where very much looked up to in religions, many.

Originally posted by meep-meep
I see your point. Certain religions themselves don't allow room for new ideas and revolutionary thought among their members, so a women in a respectable and more equal position to that of her male counterpart wouldn't really be any different than having some, for example, radically conservative preacher.

What most people don´t understand is Religion especially christianity CANNOT change, have new ideas or be revolutionary because the rules were set by God in the bible/Tora in the laws passed down. The whole point of the religion is to follow the creators rule not change it, changing it in fact is a sin. Mind you some beleive that Jesus in saying "I give you a new law, love your nieghbour as yourself" (or something along those lines) make the old "Moses" laws void. Including the one not allowing women to be priests.

This is talking from a christian point of view and don´t reflect my opinion by the way

You´d think women would be better leaders considering they don´t like violence, fighting and are more social.

But look at what M. Thatcher did in the Falklands war, did´t bother with much dialog, Condelezza rice also appears to be a bit of a war monger.

Women will never be equal to men in Christianity. The doctrine is anti women. I am a Buddhist, and Buddhism is the only religion where a woman is truly equal to a man. Some 3000 years ago Buddha in the Lotus Sutra stated that woman will also gain enlightenment and he was the first to have nuns and monks.

It is true that in earlier sutras Buddha said that women can not gain enlightenment, but in the Lotus Sutra (one of his last Sutras) he had a change of heart. Witch goes to show that even Buddha was able to grow and change.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Women will never be equal to men in Christianity. The doctrine is anti women. I am a Buddhist, and Buddhism is the only religion where a woman is truly equal to a man. Some 3000 years ago Buddha in the Lotus Sutra stated that woman will also gain enlightenment and he was the first to have nuns and monks.

It is true that in earlier sutras Buddha said that women can not gain enlightenment, but in the Lotus Sutra (one of his last Sutras) he had a change of heart. Witch goes to show that even Buddha was able to grow and change.

So what, if anything, should be done about this? Do you think we, men and women, should actively try to make changes in certain cultures to give women more of a say in their respective cultures or should we not do anything and stick to the argument that if the women are content with the way things are we should leave them to their own devices. I think a good middle ground for helping to get women more rights is simply to fight for their, and everyones, right to a satisfactory education. This posses problems, though. Many societies will not tolerate their unrepresentated population getting a handout of free education. How else will these people understand other people if their own people who rule wont let them?

It's not unfair that only men get those positions. I don't know where all this bullshit about "equality" came from. Women should be making our dinner, not trying to mess with our shit.

Originally posted by Uberking Robert
It's not unfair that only men get those positions. I don't know where all this bullshit about "equality" came from. Women should be making our dinner, not trying to mess with our shit.

You need to rethink your position.

Women were part of OT scripture and even in some NT scripture as well along with the earlier religions..Women held equall positions, and in many religions they were the leaders. The idea of women leading a congregation in worship should not be threatening. I don't see why it would be unless the men have an ego problem. Though it was Paul and paul alone who said women had no authority which later through out history became horrid as were not allowed to sit with their husbands in church, but on the other side of the church, keep silent have not say, couldn't vote...etc...All stemmed from what the church twisted in reference to Paul.

Women have been denied leadership roles, they are told to be submissive, and religious doctrines are used to control them both in society and the family. Women have always held important leadership roles in the churches, but men have resented this and kept them as far in the background as possible.

However, I am proud that our cardinal Godfried Daneels added his voice to the chorus calling for women to be admitted as Catholic priests.

As far as Arabia goes, before Islam, women were allowed to be priestesses, and many were. In fact 2 out of 3 biggest revolts against Islam came from women which were priestesses.

Since Islam is almost exactly the same in practice as Judaism, then I guess many customs have been adopted from there. Christianity is the same - women were never allowed to be in position of power, because, if you remember, it was Eve's fault for the original sin - woman was seen as a traitorous snake.

I don't think women need to be in that position of power. We have other duties and obligations to perform. I'm not saying that as a sexist remark either. I know so many roll eyes at the Mormon religion, but in the structure of our church...women have an orginization called the Relief Society. We use this organization to learn how to better raise our children with the gospel, support our husbands in their callings, and we are very much about helping others in need and doing service projects which can range anywhere from volunteering to making dinner for one of the sisters in the church that is ill or just had a baby...or perhaps to bring meals and offer assistance to a family that has recently lost someone. Besides that, we have teachers who teach children's classes, young adult classes, and of course the Relief Society presidency and teachers, Sunday school, visiting teaching, putting together Enrichment Night activities, and often we speak in our sacrament meetings.
The women in our church play a huge role. The Relief Society is one of the greatest church women's societies in the world. With all the responisbility that the women in our church hold...I don't see why we should try to butt into the duties that the Lord called the men to do. That's just so much more work that we would have to add to our already full schedules.

I don't know how other religions view women, but the LDS church holds women in very high esteem and I, nor the other women that I know in my area of the church have any desire to join the priesthood of our church. The men have to do something.

Originally posted by Uberking Robert
It's not unfair that only men get those positions. I don't know where all this bullshit about "equality" came from. Women should be making our dinner, not trying to mess with our shit.

Yeah. What is the world coming to? I mean, it's ticking along fine in an oppressive patriarchal way, and next thing you know... wham!!!! Somebodies pointed out that men and women are actually equal. Next thing you know they want to vote, and not be forced into marriage and be more then baby producing factories and have the right to happiness as well and so on. I mean, where do they get off? 🙄

Still I guess things change, most people are happier now, not that many want to go back to the delightful cave man ways of old.

And maybe it should be men making dinner, not the other way round. Actually that's practical as well, all the greatest chefs have been men... and all the worst Church leaders have also been men... and most of the worlds worst political leaders have also been men... I think it's clear. Men should cook, women should care for the spiritual well being of humanity.

I like to think that some problems will be solved by that.

Originally posted by Kella
I don't think women need to be in that position of power. We have other duties and obligations to perform. I'm not saying that as a sexist remark either. I know so many roll eyes at the Mormon religion, but in the structure of our church...women have an orginization called the Relief Society. We use this organization to learn how to better raise our children with the gospel, support our husbands in their callings, and we are very much about helping others in need and doing service projects which can range anywhere from volunteering to making dinner for one of the sisters in the church that is ill or just had a baby...or perhaps to bring meals and offer assistance to a family that has recently lost someone. Besides that, we have teachers who teach children's classes, young adult classes, and of course the Relief Society presidency and teachers, Sunday school, visiting teaching, putting together Enrichment Night activities, and often we speak in our sacrament meetings.
The women in our church play a huge role. The Relief Society is one of the greatest church women's societies in the world. With all the responisbility that the women in our church hold...I don't see why we should try to butt into the duties that the Lord called the men to do. That's just so much more work that we would have to add to our already full schedules.

I don't know how other religions view women, but the LDS church holds women in very high esteem and I, nor the other women that I know in my area of the church have any desire to join the priesthood of our church. The men have to do something.

Article by Maxine Hanks for the Los Angeles Times

When Howard W. Hunter became president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, his first public act was a plea for alienated Mormons to "come back," or return to fellowship. Yet more than half of the 9 million church members can never participate fully because they are women. To find reconciliation, Mormon women must look to the past.

The historical relationship of men and women in the Mormon church is a conflicted one. In 1992, I published a book that explores long-ignored aspects of that history and attempts to retrieve the soul of Mormon women's spiritual life. For that, I was accused of apostasy.

Mormon women obtained authority early in the history of the church and then fought a losing battle to keep it. Their concerns were not taken seriously, so men's authority prevailed. Feminism emerged in the struggle, in the energy of women's rhetoric and work and in their resistance to male agendas.

Mormon women exercised considerable religious authority in the LDS Church for 100 years and maintained some autonomy for 140 years. During the first 20 years of Mormonism, from 1830 to 1850, women received authority for blessings, healing and prophecy; priesthood keys, powers and rituals; and missionary calls. Women clashed with male leadership and lost authority at the turn of the century and again in the 1970s. Since 1991, Mormon feminists have encountered a backlash against their attempts to reclaim women's authority. Today's church holds that women cannot exercise priesthood, therefore women are not "ordained" but only "set-apart" to church positions. As a full-time LDS missionary, I sensed I had priesthood, but spent 19 months being denied the right to use it.

Although women's authority is plainly evident in Mormon history, today's male church leaders won't acknowledge it, for that would mean having to take responsibility for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers who revoked that authority. Instead, they blame Christ. Over and over again, male leaders assert that female priesthood is "contrary to the Lord's plan" and that today's church "follows the pattern the Lord has set."

The extreme gender imbalance in Mormonism re-emerges in Utah's masculinist culture, where government, education and business are run by Mormon men in the shadow of Salt Lake's tallest building, the LDS church offices. In Utah, women as well as men repress the feminine, starve it and then overcompensate: We crave sweet and fatty foods for comfort; we gain weight to feel loved; men act effeminate and women self-destruct with prescription drugs, obesity, depression and too many kids. Hostility to women manifests in subtle and shocking ways. Apostle Boyd Packer said, "I could tell most of the secretaries in the church office building that they are ugly and fat. That would be the truth, but it would hurt and destroy them."

Male-dominant culture offers women a choice between female powerlessness or male-identification. A respected local therapist told me that she sees many Mormon women who "actually believe they are men." My book was an attempt to heal, by moving beyond male-defined identity to a place of female identification, definition and power, and by removing obstructions to women's relationship with God.

My feminist views were never welcome in church, so I turned to the public marketplace of ideas. Yet for two years, church leaders threatened me not to speak publicly about Mormon feminist issues. Excommunication was a small price to pay for my voice. It didn't take away my theology or my spirituality, which the church does not control. God's spirit cannot be homogenized, mass-produced and marketed by blue-suited septuagenarians from a high-rise in downtown Salt Lake City.

I was told that my feminist ideas were "contrary to the laws and order of the church." I agree. My excommunication was justifiable. Still, these are men's laws and men's orders, not women's. In 1884, Eliza R. Snow, "prophetess" and president over all women and girls in the church, made it clear that the women's Relief Society, which she headed, was "designed to be a self-governing organization. "If difficulties arise," she wrote, ". . . the matter should be referred to (the) president and her counselors." Later, when men assumed governance over women, they usurped women's authority. I cited Snow to the 15 high priests set to judge me, but it had no impact on them. It did, however, liberate me from participating in their illusion. They excommunicated me to silence feminists and send a message of fear to Mormon women, but their action had the opposite effect: Visibility and discussion soared, and my book is in its second printing.

So, where does this leave Mormon women? They have a strong feminist tradition. Whether today's women can reclaim their authority and priesthood in the church and fully participate remains a question; first, they must find authority within themselves. But I will not "come back" to a church that crushes female authority and individual conscience.