Lucifer & Michael vs FullPotential-Max Faraday, Scott Free, Dr Manhattan, Hyperstorm

Originally posted by Draco69
For what I understand Michael and Lucifer didn't merely create a universe they created Creation itself...or am I wrong...

What do you think creation is? I think your perception of what they mean when they say creation is whats causing the confusion. In the Lucifer title the Presences creation is a universe as stated on panel. Thats what Lucifer and Michael had a hand in creating. That in itself was just a learning exercise for them devised by God as a means of teaching them the skills they'd need to fulfill their future roles as Gods successors. Well that was the original plan but as we've seen Elaine is now the supreme being in Vertigo.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
This is actually true 😕 No GS bullshit here Draco! weird stuff, huh!

😉

even if they are below faraday he isnt smart enough to handle his powers Lucifer would outsmart him and take the power for himself thats if he needs it.

Originally posted by Mider
even if they are below faraday he isnt smart enough to handle his powers Lucifer would outsmart him and take the power for himself thats if he needs it.

This is true, only thing is, this particular thread has a full potential Max Faraday so, he would know how to use his power, fully..

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What do you think creation is? I think your perception of what they mean when they say creation is whats causing the confusion. In the Lucifer title the Presences creation is a universe as stated on panel. Thats what Lucifer and Michael had a hand in creating. That in itself was just a learning exercise for them devised by God as a means of teaching them the skills they'd need to fulfill their future roles as Gods successors. Well that was the original plan but as we've seen Elaine is now the supreme being in Vertigo.

always making a nikka smarter...

By the way I was wondering GS, will the brothers rule together?
Is there a full potential for the brothers, or are they who they will always be?
And if this is true, is it because the only way for the brothers to match the Presense is to work together, or will they both equal the Presense one day?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im gonna have to get back to you on what exactlys said because i dont wanna skim read though the issues just for this debate because the series actually looks quite good so i dont wanna spoil it for myself.

However just saying Max wields gods power doesnt place him on an equal footing with the supreme being. Its not specific enough, so its far from conclusive. Both Lucifer and Michael wield Gods power for example.

Wikipedias entries are often written by the public and its entries can be edited at any time so while its useful its not always sufficient evidence in debates.

I'll get back to you anyway. Either way i cant see HyperStorm or Dr Man playing much of a part. There are more powerful beings you couldve chosen from. Hyperstorms powers being derived from creation for example and Dr Man only being able to manipulate creation as opposed to his power being totally independent from it.

Perhaps, but every google link I followed on Faraday say's the same thing,
it's probably a conspiracy lol...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I'll get back to you anyway. Either way i cant see HyperStorm or Dr Man playing much of a part. There are more powerful beings you couldve chosen from. Hyperstorms powers being derived from creation for example and Dr Man only being able to manipulate creation as opposed to his power being totally independent from it.

Manhattan can do muuuuuuuuuch more than just manipulate creation, GS, you must of known this.

he may know how to use his powers but his mind is still human maybe Lucifer could make him doubt himself like the beyonder did doom.

Originally posted by Mider
he may know how to use his powers but his mind is still human maybe Lucifer could make him doubt himself like the beyonder did doom.

Good point Mids,

But at full potential Max would also have Cosmic Awareness(also fact)unlike Doom who just had the Beyonder's power.

I'm sure you understand what that is Mids(Cosmic Awareness)the name speaks for itself.

Originally posted by unknowable
always making a nikka smarter...

By the way I was wondering GS, will the brothers rule together?
Is there a full potential for the brothers, or are they who they will always be?
And if this is true, is it because the only way for the brothers to match the Presense is to work together, or will they both equal the Presense one day?

The brothers will reach full potential by taking on the mantle of supreme being. Its their destiny or at least it was prior to Elaine. (Michaels daughter) Only one of them was going to become the supreme being and helping God make creation was just a lesson for them, preparation for that role. In Lucifer 39 we found out that God had initially chosen Lucifer for the role.

Originally posted by unknowable
Manhattan can do muuuuuuuuuch more than just manipulate creation, GS, you must of known this.

Not by my understanding of Watchmen. I think youre misinterpreting what i mean when i say that. From what was shown Manhattans powers arent independent from the already established creation. To create he must make use of the energy and matter whats already present. He cant create out of nothing. To manipulate his only choice is to manipulate whats already there. Michael for example wields the demiurge from which all the matter and energy in creation is derived from. Same with Phoenix all matter energy, all life is derived from Phoenix in Marvel. That makes them beyond someone like Manhattan imo and is why ive been focusing on the brothers and Faraday.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The brothers will reach full potential by taking on the mantle of supreme being. Its their destiny or at least it was prior to Elaine. (Michaels daughter) Only one of them was going to become the supreme being and helping God make creation was just a lesson for them, preparation for that role. In Lucifer 39 we found out that God had initially chosen Lucifer for the role.

I see...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not by my understanding of Watchmen. I think youre misinterpreting what i mean when i say that. From what was shown Manhattans powers arent independent from the already established creation. To create he must make use of the energy and matter whats already present. He cant create out of nothing. To manipulate his only choice is to manipulate whats already there. Michael for example wields the demiurge from which all the matter and energy in creation is derived from. Same with Phoenix all matter energy, all life is derived from Phoenix in Marvel. That makes them beyond someone like Manhattan imo and is why ive been focusing on the brothers and Faraday.

Watchmen page 27 top panel right side, I quote "I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated" Manhattan.
"But you'd regained interest in human life" Adrian Veidt.

page 27 middle panel left side, "Yes I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye Adrian"

You like proof GS, there it is.

Originally posted by unknowable
Watchmen page 27 top panel right side, I quote "I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated" Manhattan.
"But you'd regained interest in human life" Adrian Veidt.

page 27 middle panel left side, "Yes I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye Adrian"

You like proof GS, there it is.

So how is that proof? I have it right in front of me. He says he going to go off to create something. Wheres the evidence to say hes going to generate his own matter and energy out of scratch as opposed to manipulating matter and energy already existing in creation to make whatever hes planning in that scene. Theres no proof there and no evidence in the entire series to say he can actually do that.

Hes using whats already in creation, his powers arent independent from creation. With Michael and Phoenix all matter and energy in creation derive from them. Theyre on another level.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That makes them beyond someone like Manhattan imo and is why ive been focusing on the brothers and Faraday.

And what of Scott Free(Mr Miracle), you havent even mentioned him, surely he must be taken seriously having the full scope of the Anti-Life Equation at his disposal, or maybe not, explain.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So how is that proof? I have it right in front of me. He says he going to go off to create something. Wheres the evidence to say hes going to generate his own matter and energy out of scratch as opposed to manipulating matter and energy already existing in creation to make whatever hes planning in that scene. Theres no proof there and no evidence in the entire series to say he can actually do that.

Hes using whats already in creation, his powers arent independent from creation. With Michael and Phoenix all matter and energy in creation derive from them. Theyre on another level.

Wheres the evidence to say he's not going to generate his own matter and energy out of scratch to create?

I'd say your 50% right cuz I'm not sure, but you make sense, on the other hand it's not in plain text either or, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally posted by unknowable
And what of Scott Free(Mr Miracle), you havent even mentioned him, surely he must be taken seriously having the full scope of the Anti-Life Equation at his disposal, or maybe not, explain.

Heres a link to a site with some info on the Anti Life equation:

http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=antilifeequation

I cant see how this places him on the same level as beings from whom creation stems from.

Originally posted by unknowable
Wheres the evidence to say he's not going to generate his own matter and energy out of scratch to create?

I'd say your 50% right cuz I'm not sure, but you make sense, on the other hand it's not in plain text either or, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

But as the one making claims its up to you to present conclusive on panel evidence verifying your claims. Thats what must be done initially. You havent been able to do that, so until such times where thats no longer the case the point is for the time being out the window.

Nowhere in Watchmen is it shown or claimed that Dr Ms powers are independent from creation. Its actually shown on panel that he has power over the elements which make up creation and thats all. These other ideas of yours are unsupported.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Heres a link to a site with some info on the Anti Life equation:

http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=antilifeequation

I cant see how this places him on the same level as beings from whom creation stems from.

Yea I read that before during research and I hate it, cuz it's not the Anti-Life I know of.

GS have you ever read Cosmic Odyssey - written by Jim Starlin - penciled by Mike Mignola?

Originally posted by unknowable
Yea I read that before during research and I hate it, cuz it's not the Anti-Life I know of.

GS have you ever read Cosmic Odyssey - written by Jim Starlin - penciled by Mike Mignola?

I havent. Whats it about?