Kyp Durron vs. Lord Hoth

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Means... nothing in combat. Unless he is gonna control one while battling a jedi war general, who cares?

Janus, they used telekinesis to control it. Unless being able to potential force push someone with as much energy as a star destroyers engines wouldn't help in combat.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
For one, this was with Kun's help. Why is this being discussed? Has he done it to others since?

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
So Corran Horn is the expert on Kyp's power level or something? The point here is that you have one feat (Which, btw, is useles in this battle against someone out to kill Kyp who manhandles Sith for a living) which was done with some sort of aid, and you're applying it to Kyp's overall mastery. WTF?

Corran was assigned to finding out as much about Exar's spirit as possible. He would know a good bit. Like I said, Corran gave reasons to Luke as to why he believed Kyp had been more in control then Kyp during that encounter.

How is being able to rip someone from their body not going to be helpful in combat?

Anyway, I re-read that part of Dark Apprentice and I found out that Kyp only knocked Luke down with force lightning and stuff. It was Exar who actually ripped him from his body. Kyp did overpower Luke with the force lighting though, since it said that Luke used everything Obi-wan and Yoda had taught him to defend himself, but it failed miserably.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
key phrase right there- trying to calm him down. Not "trying to block his force TK" or "trying to saber his ass." These are boosted feats against his friends, not real enemies.

Janus, do you know what you are talking about? I've read the books and I would be VERY surprised as if you have done the same.

Unaltered quote, pg. 157, I, Jedi, "Even though I braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's pervious Force blows were like light breezes compared with a full-out gale. I slammed back into the wall with a teeth-rattling impact." Kyp was knocked unconcious by the attack.

It's a good thing you know what you are talking about, Janus. lol.

Exar killing Gantoris doesn't mean that he was very powerful or that he even did more then a little of the work to defeat Luke.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
... Right.

Prove otherwise. Gantoris was weak at this point. He'd just gotten beaten up by Luke and tried to attack Exar in fear. He got cooked from the inside out. Not hard since Gantoris wasn't even able to absord the energy to protect himself from boiling water(Gantoris, like everyone except Luke and Corran had to scamble to get out of the hot water).

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Where'd you get this figure from? Proof, Glentract?

From reading the NJO books(I've actually only read about 2/3rds of them, but he fights Vong in almost all of them.).

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Every piece of artwork from the time period shows jedi against sith on a battlefield.

Yeah, all three pictures. Not an indicator that he was always engaged in the frontline combat. We know he dueled Darth Bane, and that there were several other duels he had with certain Sith Lords, but a few pictures doesn't mean he was on the front as often as Kyp.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Here's a quote from Wookieepedia:

Unlike the charismatic Farfalla, Hoth had little time for diplomacy, nor the delicate etiquette his rank sometimes required. Where he did excel was warfare—he was a superb tactician and, even in his advanced age, a warrior without peer.

Assuming this is accurate (And you are notorious for saying that Wookieepedia is reliable) Hoth would be peerless among an ARMY of Jedi who fought daily against Sith! You expect us to believe that Kyp "I have an attitude problem and I'm a force prodigy" Durron is going to pwn a battle hardened veteran? Pfft.

Apprently you forget that I have stated that feats of a character, or certain things that it says they did, such as when it says, "Palpatine was pleased: one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time was born in pain and suffering, and it was his apprentice." Do you think that Darth Vader is really one of the more powerful Sith Lords of all time while in his suit(this is referring to when Palpatine tells Vader that Vader killed Padme in his anger, so it's mech-Vader). Warrior without peer is probably hyperbole since it said in the same article about Lord Hoth that he was one of the foremost Jedi of his era. While wouldn't it say that he was the downright best?

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Uh huh.

Whoops. I meant to say that he was powerful enough to remove him from his body even after DE.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
But you've made a MOUNTAIN of assumptions, Glentract. All of them in favor of Kyp. More post-OT bias. You've assumed that Kyp's raw feats under the partial control of an insane Exar Kun reflect his force mastery in combat. You've assumed that killing the leviathan (Through means which are still in question) means he is the pwn-all of combat. You've assumed that Kyps' experience with the Vong trump Hoth's lifetime of experience against the lightsaber toting Sith.

In short, you've assumed a bunch of unsupported bullshit. Prove your case better.

And for the record, I say Hoth wins this.

Janus, I've more or less shown that your case it a load of crap. I am not alone in making assumptions and I've done my best to keep them to a minimum. Lets look at your sources: all I see is a Wookiepedia quote that looks to be tained with hyperbole. Good job.

Janus, they used telekinesis to control it. Unless being able to potential force push someone with as much energy as a star destroyers engines wouldn't help in combat.

Again, it was a dovin basal. Now, Kyp may have manipulated it without an overwhelming amount of difficulty, but so what? Do you want to brush this off as another one of your 'EU inconsistencies'? Are you forgetting that he got the crap beaten out of him by four slayers, while Luke defeated seven, and Force pwn3d an eighth? Granted, Kyp had 'less knowledge' of them, but if he'd been as great a tactical warrior and duelist as you claim, he should have been able to overcome this, and adapt to the situation rather quickly.

How is being able to rip someone from their body not going to be helpful in combat?

Because he did it to a twenty-something, relatively inexperienced Luke as opposed to a sixty-something, battle-hardened, highly experienced Jedi warrior? Not to say that Luke wasn't powerful by this point, by Hoth would still pwn his ass.

Anyway, I re-read that part of Dark Apprentice and I found out that Kyp only knocked Luke down with force lightning and stuff. It was Exar who actually ripped him from his body. Kyp did overpower Luke with the force lighting though, since it said that Luke used everything Obi-wan and Yoda had taught him to defend himself, but it failed miserably.

Alright. But that's Dark Kyp with the power of spirit Kun behind him. Now, he may have very well overcome Luke's fledging defenses, but it wasn't like Skywalker was willing to Force choke / throw his wayward apprentice, considering he was still trying to get him back to his senses.

Janus, do you know what you are talking about? I've read the books and I would be VERY surprised as if you have done the same.

Erm, rude?

Unaltered quote, pg. 157, I, Jedi, "Even though I braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's pervious Force blows were like light breezes compared with a full-out gale. I slammed back into the wall with a teeth-rattling impact." Kyp was knocked unconcious by the attack.

It's a good thing you know what you are talking about, Janus. lol.

Again; like Luke, Corran wasn't willing to go all out on Kyp. He may have begun to prepare himself for an attack, but I doubt that he was willing to hurt him.

And I suggest you re-read the quote:

"Kyp's previous attacks were like light breezes compared to with a full-out gale."

Apparently, his previous, unbolstered Force attacks were miniscule and weak in comparison to his Dark, amplified attacks, which were backed by the power of Exar Kun's spectre.

Ahem. . .

Exar killing Gantoris doesn't mean that he was very powerful or that he even did more then a little of the work to defeat Luke.

Prove otherwise. Gantoris was weak at this point. He'd just gotten beaten up by Luke and tried to attack Exar in fear. He got cooked from the inside out. Not hard since Gantoris wasn't even able to absord the energy to protect himself from boiling water(Gantoris, like everyone except Luke and Corran had to scamble to get out of the hot water).

Aren't you the one who just said that he was only a 'little bit stronger' than the God that is Corran?

From reading the NJO books(I've actually only read about 2/3rds of them, but he fights Vong in almost all of them.).[QUOTE]

Yeah. But he does squat in Traitor, eh? I think you're exaggerating, horribly. He fights a good deal, sure, but not nearly as much as Hoth has. And it helps that Lord Hoth's combat experienced is focued onto lightsaber-wielding Dark Siders.

[QUOTE]Yeah, all three pictures. Not an indicator that he was always engaged in the frontline combat. We know he dueled Darth Bane, and that there were several other duels he had with certain Sith Lords, but a few pictures doesn't mean he was on the front as often as Kyp.

What's indicating that Kyp is? I know for a fact that he is often involved in counciling matters. And you're saying that a frontline general has only been a few duels. Please.

[QUOTEApprently you forget that I have stated that feats of a character, or certain things that it says they did, such as when it says, "Palpatine was pleased: one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time was born in pain and suffering, and it was his apprentice." Do you think that Darth Vader is really one of the more powerful Sith Lords of all time while in his suit(this is referring to when Palpatine tells Vader that Vader killed Padme in his anger, so it's mech-Vader). Warrior without peer is probably hyperbole since it said in the same article about Lord Hoth that he was one of the foremost Jedi of his era. While wouldn't it say that he was the downright best?[/QUOTE]

Wookipedia's hyperbole in Kyp's favor, 'almost rivaling Luke in Force and lightsaber ability', doesn't seem to be much in terms of feat, and I've seen you use those exact words before.

Whoops. I meant to say that he was powerful enough to remove him from his body even after DE.

And Luke still pwns his ass in terms of 'feat wars'.

Janus, I've more or less shown that your case it a load of crap. I am not alone in making assumptions and I've done my best to keep them to a minimum. Lets look at your sources: all I see is a Wookiepedia quote that looks to be tained with hyperbole. Good job.

Pfft. Please. You've shown nothing except for your biased, relatively unsupported opinion on several matters. I'll give you the JA points, which were valid and informative, but you've misused them on multiple fronts.

And you're keeping assumptions to a minimum? Lmfao!

'Since we don't know how Kyp killed the Leviathan, I'll use the most helpful and supportive method possible. He overpowered it!!'

And so what if he did? The thing's a dozen or so meters tall; the little children in Ewok Adventure killed a thirty meter tall Gorax. Props! They'd WTFpwn Darth Revan!!

Again, it was a dovin basal. Now, Kyp may have manipulated it without an overwhelming amount of difficulty, but so what? Do you want to brush this off as another one of your 'EU inconsistencies'? Are you forgetting that he got the crap beaten out of him by four slayers, while Luke defeated seven, and Force pwn3d an eighth? Granted, Kyp had 'less knowledge' of them, but if he'd been as great a tactical warrior and duelist as you claim, he should have been able to overcome this, and adapt to the situation rather quickly.

Because he did it to a twenty-something, relatively inexperienced Luke as opposed to a sixty-something, battle-hardened, highly experienced Jedi warrior? Not to say that Luke wasn't powerful by this point, by Hoth would still pwn his ass.

Alright. But that's Dark Kyp with the power of spirit Kun behind him. Now, he may have very well overcome Luke's fledging defenses, but it wasn't like Skywalker was willing to Force choke / throw his wayward apprentice, considering he was still trying to get him back to his senses.

Erm, rude?

Again; like Luke, Corran wasn't willing to go all out on Kyp. He may have begun to prepare himself for an attack, but I doubt that he was willing to hurt him.

And I suggest you re-read the quote:

"Kyp's previous attacks were like light breezes compared to with a full-out gale."

Apparently, his previous, unbolstered Force attacks were miniscule and weak in comparison to his Dark, amplified attacks, which were backed by the power of Exar Kun's spectre.

Ahem. . .

Aren't you the one who just said that he was only a 'little bit stronger' than the God that is Corran?

What's indicating that Kyp is? I know for a fact that he is often involved in counciling matters. And you're saying that a frontline general has only been a few duels. Please.

Apprently you forget that I have stated that feats of a character, or certain things that it says they did, such as when it says, "Palpatine was pleased: one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time was born in pain and suffering, and it was his apprentice." Do you think that Darth Vader is really one of the more powerful Sith Lords of all time while in his suit(this is referring to when Palpatine tells Vader that Vader killed Padme in his anger, so it's mech-Vader). Warrior without peer is probably hyperbole since it said in the same article about Lord Hoth that he was one of the foremost Jedi of his era. While wouldn't it say that he was the downright best?

Wookipedia's hyperbole in Kyp's favor, 'almost rivaling Luke in Force and lightsaber ability', doesn't seem to be much in terms of feat, and I've seen you use those exact words before.

And Luke still pwns his ass in terms of 'feat wars'.

Pfft. Please. You've shown nothing except for your biased, relatively unsupported opinion on several matters. I'll give you the JA points, which were valid and informative, but you've misused them on multiple fronts.

And you're keeping assumptions to a minimum? Lmfao!

'Since we don't know how Kyp killed the Leviathan, I'll use the most helpful and supportive method possible. He overpowered it!!'

And so what if he did? The thing's a dozen or so meters tall; the little children in Ewok Adventure killed a thirty meter tall Gorax. Props! They'd WTFpwn Darth Revan!!

EDIT: Ah! Quoting error!

Actually, Glentract, I wasn't making an argument so much as I was pointing out how cocked up yours is... You are horribly biased, and next time you accuse me of not reading the source material, keep it civil. You don't -want- me to turn my full attention to you, Glentract. I've ripped you limb from limb before. Don't oblige me to do it again.

Wait a sec: Kyp killed the infant leviathan, didn't he? What about the mother?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Again, it was a dovin basal. Now, Kyp may have manipulated it without an overwhelming amount of difficulty, but so what? Do you want to brush this off as another one of your 'EU inconsistencies'? Are you forgetting that he got the crap beaten out of him by four slayers, while Luke defeated seven, and Force pwn3d an eighth? Granted, Kyp had 'less knowledge' of them, but if he'd been as great a tactical warrior and duelist as you claim, he should have been able to overcome this, and adapt to the situation rather quickly.

Obviously manipulating a dovin basal requires a great amount of force energy as even NJO Luke had a hard time doing it. Now, perhaps Kyp's saber skills are weaker, but his force mastery far exceeds anything we have ever seen Lord Hoth do.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Because he did it to a twenty-something, relatively inexperienced Luke as opposed to a sixty-something, battle-hardened, highly experienced Jedi warrior? Not to say that Luke wasn't powerful by this point, by Hoth would still pwn his ass.

So the Luke who defeated DE Sidious in sabercombat sucks? good one.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Alright. But that's Dark Kyp with the power of spirit Kun behind him. Now, he may have very well overcome Luke's fledging defenses, but it wasn't like Skywalker was willing to Force choke / throw his wayward apprentice, considering he was still trying to get him back to his senses.

Kyp is Dark almost all of the time. That's the whole NJO Jedi thing is that they use the darkside to make good things happen. Kyp at this point hd already stolen a ship and attacked and injured at least one of his students.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Erm, rude?

I must have been in a really bad mood or something. My apologies Janus.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Again; like Luke, Corran wasn't willing to go all out on Kyp. He may have begun to prepare himself for an attack, but I doubt that he was willing to hurt him.

And I suggest you re-read the quote:

"Kyp's previous attacks were like [b]light breezes compared to with a full-out gale."

Apparently, his previous, unbolstered Force attacks were miniscule and weak in comparison to his Dark, amplified attacks, which were backed by the power of Exar Kun's spectre.

Ahem. . . [/B]

The other attacks were bolstered by Kun's power too. Kyp was under Exar's control at this moment.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Aren't you the one who just said that he was only a 'little bit stronger' than the God that is Corran?

Did I say Corran was really powerful at this point? In the NJO and beyond he is a beast and his decades of combat training makes him a capable fighter even at this point, but in the force both of them were weak at this time. Unless you call a student with about a month of training god.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
What's indicating that Kyp is? I know for a fact that he is often involved in counciling matters. And you're saying that a frontline general has only been a few duels. Please.

Proof that Hoth was a frontline general?

BTW, there are a good four years of the Yuuzhan Vong War before the Council was even formed.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
[QUOTE[B]Apprently you forget that I have stated that feats of a character, or certain things that it says they did, such as when it says, "Palpatine was pleased: one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time was born in pain and suffering, and it was his apprentice." Do you think that Darth Vader is really one of the more powerful Sith Lords of all time while in his suit(this is referring to when Palpatine tells Vader that Vader killed Padme in his anger, so it's mech-Vader). Warrior without peer is probably hyperbole since it said in the same article about Lord Hoth that he was one of the foremost Jedi of his era. While wouldn't it say that he was the downright best?

Wookipedia's hyperbole in Kyp's favor, 'almost rivaling Luke in Force and lightsaber ability', doesn't seem to be much in terms of feat, and I've seen you use those exact words before. [/B][/QUOTE]

I wasn't counting wookiepedia's descriptions of people. Janus used a description on there of Hoth as proof, but I felt it to be hyperbole and stated why I thought so. I've said that Kyp rivals Luke in force powers, but saberskills? Maybe I was asleep when I typed that or something as even I have said that he is not. I said that DN Luke is better with just his weak hand then Kyp is using his preferred style, which you argued against when it helped your side. So what is it? Does DN Luke pwn Kyp in saber skills or does Kyp give him a hard time?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And Luke still pwns his ass in terms of 'feat wars'.

What are you talking about?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Pfft. Please. You've shown nothing except for your biased, relatively unsupported opinion on several matters. I'll give you the JA points, which were valid and informative, but you've misused them on multiple fronts.

And you're keeping assumptions to a minimum? Lmfao!

'Since we don't know how Kyp killed the Leviathan, I'll use the most helpful and supportive method possible. He overpowered it!!'

And so what if he did? The thing's a dozen or so meters tall; the little children in Ewok Adventure killed a thirty meter tall Gorax. Props! They'd WTFpwn Darth Revan!!

If I thought Kyp overpowered it I would be arguing that he could kill Exar or Nadd. I don't because I know he isn't that strong.

Do you really thing that the Leviathans(there were two. He killed both the mother and the baby) were just a dozen meters tall? They are several hundred meters judging from the pictures I have seen of them. And you forget that these things were made to kill Jedi. They were made to kill Jedi from the Hundre-Year Darkness that had just as much experince and had fought just as long as Hoth. They were called superweapons from that time.

Actually, Glentract, I wasn't making an argument so much as I was pointing out how cocked up yours is... You are horribly biased, and next time you accuse me of not reading the source material, keep it civil. You don't -want- me to turn my full attention to you, Glentract. I've ripped you limb from limb before. Don't oblige me to do it again.

Janus, go ahead. Try and rip me apart on this. I know my stuff on these guys and I know I am right. I have to leave for a few days for school, hopefully I'll be back around on Thursday but probably not until late Friday, so you even get to have a big head start.

BTW, sorry about the source material. I must have been in a bad mood. I certainly didn't remember having been such as ass in that post.

I smell a ...ass kisser!

Calvin, please. Your posts have contributed absolutely nothing to this debate, so I suggest you cut the crap.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Obviously manipulating a dovin basal requires a great amount of force energy as even NJO Luke had a hard time doing it. Now, perhaps Kyp's saber skills are weaker, but his force mastery far exceeds anything we have ever seen Lord Hoth do.

I'm not denying that Kyp has more raw power than Hoth. But you make it seem like he'll wave his hand and pull a Traya.

And I suppose we'll have to wait until the Darth Bane novel for Hoth's power level.

So the Luke who defeated DE Sidious in sabercombat sucks? good one.

I never said he sucked; I'm not that blunt. But I doubt that he'd be able to threaten Hoth at this point.

Kyp is Dark almost all of the time. That's the whole NJO Jedi thing is that they use the darkside to make good things happen. Kyp at this point had already stolen a ship and attacked and injured at least one of his students.

True. But the Jedi use the Dark Side with reservation. Kyp, at these points, began to use it without hesitation. And I recall you saying that at the time Kyp fought the four slayers much later, the Order was still hesitant to use the Dark Side.

The other attacks were bolstered by Kun's power too. Kyp was under Exar's control at this moment.

Then why are you giving Kyp credit for the attack. . . ?

And why were they like 'light breezes' while the latter attack was like a 'full-force gale'?

Did I say Corran was really powerful at this point? In the NJO and beyond he is a beast and his decades of combat training makes him a capable fighter even at this point, but in the force both of them were weak at this time. Unless you call a student with about a month of training god.

Then Kyp -- Kun -- tossing Corran around shouldn't be much of an achievement, should it?

Proof that Hoth was a frontline general?

BTW, there are a good four years of the Yuuzhan Vong War before the Council was even formed.

The first picture you find on a Google search. Certain logical inferences. The fact that he was a 'master tactician on the battlefield'.

I wasn't counting wookiepedia's descriptions of people. Janus used a description on there of Hoth as proof, but I felt it to be hyperbole and stated why I thought so. I've said that Kyp rivals Luke in force powers, but saberskills? Maybe I was asleep when I typed that or something as even I have said that he is not. I said that DN Luke is better with just his weak hand then Kyp is using his preferred style, which you argued against when it helped your side. So what is it? Does DN Luke pwn Kyp in saber skills or does Kyp give him a hard time?

I think Luke is certainly a great deal better than Kyp in any aspect of combat. But to think that he, with his right arm numb and his left hand his only choice, could defeat Kyp at his best, is absurd. With an ordinary one-handed style, he'd give Kyp a horrible time, and with two-hands, he'd own him.

What are you talking about?

This should be obvious. . .

If I thought Kyp overpowered it I would be arguing that he could kill Exar or Nadd. I don't because I know he isn't that strong.

Do you really thing that the Leviathans(there were two. He killed both the mother and the baby) were just a dozen meters tall? They are several hundred meters judging from the pictures I have seen of them. And you forget that these things were made to kill Jedi. They were made to kill Jedi from the Hundred-Year Darkness that had just as much experince and had fought just as long as Hoth. They were called superweapons from that time.

Several hundred meters? Right. . .

And stop tossing around the term 'superweapon'. The Death Star was a superweapon, and it was destroyed by a farmboy who'd never flown an X-Wing.

The Jedi from the Hundred-Year Darkness may be good, and have a good bit of experience. But Hoth is legendary. And if this is Kyp around JA times who killed the beast, Hoth would slay it even more easily.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I'm not denying that Kyp has more raw power than Hoth. But you make it seem like he'll wave his hand and pull a Traya.

And I suppose we'll have to wait until the Darth Bane novel for Hoth's power level.

I'm just saying Kyp will win. He's not going to pwn him, but Hoth is definately going to lose from what I have seen.

When's the Darth Bane novel coming out? It should be good.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I never said he sucked; I'm not that blunt. But I doubt that he'd be able to threaten Hoth at this point.

I really don't see what makes you think that Hoth is that good. Other then experince, he doesn't have much on Kyp and if war experince alone was enough every single Knight should be able to take Windu.

Do you think that Hoth could have defeated DE Sidious in saber combat?Luke obviously is very capable at this point.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
True. But the Jedi use the Dark Side with reservation. Kyp, at these points, began to use it without hesitation. And I recall you saying that at the time Kyp fought the four slayers much later, the Order was still hesitant to use the Dark Side.

They were playing with the idea. Kyp was putting his word behind it did a lot. After Jacen came back after Traitor the Jedi really began to embrace the idea, even Luke.

Luke was ready to fight Kyp though. Luke went out there to confront Kyp and turn him back to the light. We've seen that he is willing to fight even his own students because in one of the Young Jedi Knight books he was about to fight and probably kill Brakiss. And why wouldn't Luke have seen that attack in advance?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Then why are you giving Kyp credit for the attack. . . ?

And why were they like 'light breezes' while the latter attack was like a 'full-force gale'?

Because Kyp did most of the work. It's wasn't like the first few attacks were all that Kyp could do and then the last one was what knocked Corran out. Exar added some of his power, but as I have already shown he didn't have much at this point.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Then Kyp -- Kun -- tossing Corran around shouldn't be much of an achievement, should it?

Yes, it is because Kyp had an amazing natural talent at absorbing attacks like that that Gantoris did not have. Without gaining much, if any power from this point, Corran was able to walk out of an explosion that vaporized at Hutt and most of a building. Gantoris was able to use telekinesis very well and other things like that. Gantoris was also mostly a lightsaber user rather then someone with capable force defenses like Corran.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
The first picture you find on a Google search. Certain logical inferences. The fact that he was a 'master tactician on the battlefield'.

And I suppose Ackbar, also a master tactician, is a frontline general too.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I think Luke is certainly a great deal better than Kyp in any aspect of combat. But to think that he, with his right arm numb and his left hand his only choice, could defeat Kyp at his best, is absurd. With an ordinary one-handed style, he'd give Kyp a horrible time, and with two-hands, he'd own him.

Even though Kyp was able to defeat Luke on top of the Massassi Temple and later on Kyp was able to control a black hole more easily then Luke? Luke is better in lightsaber combat for sure, but Kyp could certainly give him a hard time in Force powers.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
This should be obvious. . .

Why are you referring to Luke being good in feat wars?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Several hundred meters? Right. . .

And stop tossing around the term 'superweapon'. The Death Star was a superweapon, and it was destroyed by a farmboy who'd never flown an X-Wing.

The Jedi from the Hundred-Year Darkness may be good, and have a good bit of experience. But Hoth is legendary. And if this is Kyp around JA times who killed the beast, Hoth would slay it even more easily.

We've been over this before. I've shown pictures of them. They are huge. They are several hundred meters tall.

The Leviathans were made to kill Jedi. The Death Star wasn't made to fight X-wing starfighters. And, if the Leviathans were so easy to kill, why would the Sith Empire have used them against the Jedi so much?

What do you mean, "the Jedi from the Hundred Year Darkness may be good"? They must have been extremely powerful as Ragnos feared them. They were the only impression he had of the Republic and the Jedi and he feared the Republic. So you think Hoth would make Ragnos afraid to attack the Republic?

Saying that the Leviathan must be weak because Kyp beat it is stupid. That's like saying the people in Japan who died from the nuclear boms must have been weak because they died from something in it's infancy.

Just one tidbit- you're assuming that Hoth doesn't have any Force feats or saber mastery to compare to Kyp despite being more or less a head and shoulders above an entire jedi army during a time of jedi-sith conflict that is unparrelled. So apparently he was just some cowardly backroom general, Glentract? He couldn't lead his troops?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm just saying Kyp will win. He's not going to pwn him, but Hoth is definately going to lose from what I have seen.

When's the Darth Bane novel coming out? It should be good.

Actually, the Bane novel should be coming out this Fall.

I really don't see what makes you think that Hoth is that good. Other then experince, he doesn't have much on Kyp and if war experince alone was enough every single Knight should be able to take Windu.

Do you think that Hoth could have defeated DE Sidious in saber combat?Luke obviously is very capable at this point.

I don't see what makes you think Kyp is that good. ON one thread, you claim he has substandard lightsaber abilities, while here, he can trounce the most powerful Jedi of an era.

Do I think DE Sidious would be defeated by Hoth in pure saber combat? I didn't. But considering that a comparative newb sliced his hand off, it's very likely that he would.

They were playing with the idea. Kyp was putting his word behind it did a lot. After Jacen came back after Traitor the Jedi really began to embrace the idea, even Luke.

Luke was ready to fight Kyp though. Luke went out there to confront Kyp and turn him back to the light. We've seen that he is willing to fight even his own students because in one of the Young Jedi Knight books he was about to fight and probably kill Brakiss. And why wouldn't Luke have seen that attack in advance?

So they were 'playing' with the concept of a Potentium-based Order for over a decade?

Possibly. But turning him to the Light doesn't include the concept of killing him, now does it. Had Luke gone all out on Kyp, he would have annihilated him.

Because Kyp did most of the work. It's wasn't like the first few attacks were all that Kyp could do and then the last one was what knocked Corran out. Exar added some of his power, but as I have already shown he didn't have much at this point.

You haven't shown that at all. In fact, there was a point before that said the contrary. If Exar's power was so irrelevant, why were Kyp's previous attacks like "light breezes compared to full-out gale"? Did Kyp's power magically spike? Or did the other, inconceivable possibility occur?

Yes, it is because Kyp had an amazing natural talent at absorbing attacks like that that Gantoris did not have. Without gaining much, if any power from this point, Corran was able to walk out of an explosion that vaporized at Hutt and most of a building. Gantoris was able to use telekinesis very well and other things like that. Gantoris was also mostly a lightsaber user rather then someone with capable force defenses like Corran.

I believe you mean Corran. And actually, Corran would not have conjured up that defense; where would he have redirected the energy?

And even if he did, and Kyp / Exar blasted through that too, it would have only been because of the amplified power granted by Kun's spirit.

And I suppose Ackbar, also a master tactician, is a frontline general too.

Ackbar wasn't a renowned Jedi Master ina time of constant, Jedi vs. Sith warfare, now was he?

Even though Kyp was able to defeat Luke on top of the Massassi Temple and later on Kyp was able to control a black hole more easily then Luke? Luke is better in lightsaber combat for sure, but Kyp could certainly give him a hard time in Force powers.

Why are you referring to Luke being good in feat wars?

. . .

Nevermind.

We've been over this before. I've shown pictures of them. They are huge. They are several hundred meters tall.

The Leviathans were made to kill Jedi. The Death Star wasn't made to fight X-wing starfighters. And, if the Leviathans were so easy to kill, why would the Sith Empire have used them against the Jedi so much?

We have gone over this, yes. And again, you're incorrect.

Does that look several hundred meters tall? Try two.

Now I can why this would have given you that impression:

But I assure, it's not that tall. Thirty or forty feet, fifty, tops. It only looks so tall because you're under the impression that it's far, far, away. It actually only looks that way because of the haze at its feet. Believe me. It's not that far away.

What do you mean, "the Jedi from the Hundred Year Darkness may be good"? They must have been extremely powerful as Ragnos feared them. They were the only impression he had of the Republic and the Jedi and he feared the Republic. So you think Hoth would make Ragnos afraid to attack the Republic?

Saying that the Leviathan must be weak because Kyp beat it is stupid. That's like saying the people in Japan who died from the nuclear boms must have been weak because they died from something in it's infancy.

Did I say it was weak? No, I didn't. But you make it seem like it'd own Coruscant or something.

And Japan? Nothing like this, analogies or otherwise.

Unfortunately Hoth will not be in the book as it takes place after the battle of Ruusan.

Dude you know how comics are. I'm sure if one about Lord Hoth came out, he would be able to do things as unrealistic and incredible as killing a Leviathan.