The "Religion" of Secularism..is it attempting to Destroy the "Free" World?

Secularism is defined by the Dictionary as:

A doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations

The core contradiction behind the idea of secularism manifests itself, when the concepts which embody it are administered in a systematic fashion. Administering any ideology in an systematic/organized fashion, then turns that ideology into a religion.

The foundations of most secularistic belief systems are "naturalistic." "Naturalistic" meaning..attributing life's creation as being the by product of "natural" as opposed to "supernatural" processes.

So how is secularism attempting to destroy freedom?

Answer: By attempting to remove the "supernatural" aspect of what makes up many "authority" systems, and liken the existance of man to that of an animal.

By removing the idea of a supernatural Creator from a society, those with a secularistic agenda are attempting to take away the "unalienable" rights given to a man by his Creator..and attempting to define the rights of each individual as they see fit.

"Human" rights are no longer "unalienable" under a secularist government, because just like the laws that exist within the animal kingdom, rights are based on the "natural" powers one possesses, and the ability one has to exact their power. Races are reduced to a certain pecking orders just like animals in the wild..and human life as a whole is generally devalued.

In a nutshell.."Survival of the fittest" becomes the new prevalent doctrine..followed in such a system. Those with Governmental authority deem themselves as being at the top of the "food chain" so to speak, and believe that they are the ones who are the most fit to make decisions that effect those whom they've imposed their belief systems upon.

while I'm sure that you have a point... I'm starting to think your putting too much time into distroying the religious ideals of people on KMC.. I like my small belief in my faith....

Please don't confront me with science and clever thinking that forces me to abandon it....

Originally posted by whobdamandog

"Human" rights are no longer "unalienable" under a secularist government, because just like the laws that exist within the animal kingdom, rights are based on the "natural" powers one possesses, and the ability one has to exact their power. Races are reduced to a certain pecking orders just like animals in the wild..and human life as a whole is generally devalued.

So are you saying that those who lack a belief in god are:

-naturally predisposed to lack a sympathetic view towards humanity?
-inevitably racist?
-unable to guide themselves and thir conduct by any moral compass?

the very term "secularism" when applied to our democracy (u.s.) is simply a flatout lie of a label which neocon bible beaters use to erase the very foundation upon which our nation was formed.

although it was made clear that theology shall play no part in our system of government, it was also made very clear by most of our forfathers that faith is a very important part of our lives and we should never reject the teachings of such. the bible in particular.

in other words, live by the bible on your own terms, and uphold its moral values. if you refuse, then god will judge you. if you break the law in refusing (criminal behavior) then a jury of your peers will judge you, then eventually god. point being that the very term 'secularism' is just another sad attempt to change our history and discredit those who uphold one of our nation's fundamental values (separation of church and state) and label them as those who would let out an evil cackle as they burn every bible in existance.

neocons wish to create a theocracy, which throughout history has proven to be nothing but dangerous and devolutionary to ourselves and a menace to everyone else. *cough*911*cough*

Originally posted by KharmaDog
So are you saying that those who lack a belief in god are:

-naturally predisposed to lack a sympathetic view towards humanity?
-inevitably racist?
-unable to guide themselves and thir conduct by any moral compass?

I'm saying that those who "lack" a belief in God..and submit to an ideology that dismisses the "supernatural" are essentially making the authorities in which they submit themselves to "God."

Do you truly want to be ruled by a man made Government that considers itself the "absolute" authority on morality, spirituality, religion, and everything else that makes up life?

I do not. Without belief in "God", you and I would no longer have a privlage to even challenge a naturalistic government. If human rights are deemed given by men, then men can also take those rights away. If rights are given by "God", then no man can take another man's civil liberties away.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I'm saying that those who "lack" a belief in God..and submit to an ideology that dismisses the "supernatural" are essentially making the authorities in which they submit themselves to "God."

a brilliant work of fiction. you have found your calling.
unfortunately for you, this has no basis in reality.
no aspect of our ideology rejects religion. you are lying to yourself
and everyone here just to feel validated in playing the victim in this
imaginary biblical catastrophy.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Do you truly want to be ruled by a man made Government that considers itself the "absolute" authority on morality, spirituality, religion, and everything else that makes up life?

you mean like the taliban? a theocracy which forcefeeds religion to its inhabitants, and carries out judgements based strictly on religious scripture, leading to the destruction of cultural history and executions based on no real breach of morals? for example executions by stoning of women who were raped... and thus act as god? it is a theocracy you crave, isnt it?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I do not. Without belief in "God", you and I would no longer have a privlage to even challenge a naturalistic government. If human rights are deemed given by men, then men can also take those rights away. If rights are given by "God", then no man can take another man's civil liberties away.

slavery was permitted in the old testament. so you are wrong

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I'm saying that those who "lack" a belief in God..and submit to an ideology that dismisses the "supernatural" are essentially making the authorities in which they submit themselves to "God."

You speak as though this is fact. All this is based on the belief that there is a god. You speak as though this is a fact that is accepted by everyone.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Do you truly want to be ruled by a man made Government that considers itself the "absolute" authority on morality, spirituality, religion, and everything else that makes up life?

I do not. Without belief in "God", you and I would no longer have a privlage to even challenge a naturalistic government. If human rights are deemed given by men, then men can also take those rights away. If rights are given by "God", then no man can take another man's civil liberties away.

As PVS has pointed out, history has shown time and again that gov't's too involved with religion have led to catastrophic results towards thir people. You say religion is the base of morality. Then please explain the crusades, holy wars, the inquisition, the dominance of the catholic church through the ages and their harsh treatment of people time and again. All these actions and more have been committed under the guise of religious beliefs. Religious leaders, religious beliefs, religious ideals and the followers of many religions are far more responsible for the inhuman and immoral treatment of others than you seem to admit or are aware.

Religious leaders and governments have had their time, and they consistently failed the people.

Do you think there has been a govenment that has actually BEEN truely religious?? all the religious acts that are used to bash religion are not supported by the teachings of the religions...

The base arugment that TRUE religious ideals might make up a good govement can't be nocked by BAD religious leaders..

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
Do you think there has been a govenment that has actually BEEN truely religious?? all the religious acts that are used to bash religion are not supported by the teachings of the religions...

The base arugment that TRUE religious ideals might make up a good govement can't be nocked by BAD religious leaders..

But a "truley religious" government can NEVER exist because man is infallible and would never be able to adhere to religious teachings.

Religion is perverted to accomodate the wishes of man. Many believe that religious beliefs first evolved so that early man could explain the mysteries of the world. Religious beliefs, customs and rules were further developed by man to maintain social order. It was also very apparent that religious beliefs are an easy leash with which to lead and control a population.

And though "all the religious acts that are used to bash religion are not supported by the teachings of the religions... ", those acts have been justified through the religious texts, leaders and beliefs of that time.

What makes today any different?

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Religion is perverted to accomodate the wishes of man.

this should be elaborated.

our system of government is based on a clearly written set of guidelines and laws. dispite what our current administration believes, there is no way to translate these words to mean something different. religion on the other hand is most often based on ancient scripture which has been translated over different languages and rewritten secondhand, thirdhand, etc with passages ommitted by those along the way who wished to alter the scripture to their liking. and who the **** actually thinks its all rooted in our contemporary sense of morality?

for instance we have the old testament bible, which as i stated condones slavery as well as revenge. also, such scripture is damning of other religions as well as sexual orientation. so a strict enough translation would make it illegal to practice any other religion or be homosexual, and any breaking of this law could be punishable by death.

there is no way to base a government on ancient vague scripture. if you think otherwise you should pack up and move your ass to iran, because america doesnt need your sorry asses anyway 🙂

Morality doesn' t require religion.

Personaly I don't take the bible for litteral meaning anymore... But rather as a template for which I can base if something is right or wrong.. I also factor in the "modern age"...

While its true that no govenment can be vague scripture I believe it could take into concideration what is "right" and not what is "right" for 1 set of people... I don't think Religion is the be all and end all... But I think it can help to shame some of the more selfish acts govenements have commited...

Originally posted by Storm
Morality doesn' t require religion.

But I think alot of the people who don't have a very strong moral sense tend not to care about religion... Kinda broad, I know but also kinda true..

It's an interesting topic however the definition of secularism is inaccurate:

secularism, the social ideology in which religion and supernatural beliefs are not seen as the key to understanding the world and are instead segregated from matters of governance and reasoning.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

Secularism is not an outright, atheistic rejection of religion in society. It simply dictates that it has no place in the matters of law and state.

Originally posted by PVS
the very term "secularism" when applied to our democracy (u.s.) is simply a flatout lie of a label which neocon bible beaters use to erase the very foundation upon which our nation was formed.

Would you call the founding fathers of American society "Neocon" bible beaters?

Originally posted by PVS
although it was made clear that theology shall play no part in our system of government, it was also made very clear by most of our forfathers that faith is a very important part of our lives and we should never reject the teachings of such. the bible in particular.

in other words, live by the bible on your own terms, and uphold its moral values.

Do you understand that the idea you have posted is condusive to producing anarchy? A society in which everyone's "own terms" or standards becomes the "standard" would be an anarchaic one. I don't believe that the founding fathers of the US wanted to produce an anarchic system of government, rather..they wanted to produce a systematic form of government. One where an an individual could freely express their opinion..regardless of their religious faith or ideals.

The Freedoms of Speech/Expression/and Religion do not equate to "Freedom to do whatever one wants to do." The founding fathers did not want to create a secular government. In fact..I believe most of them knew that it is impossible to do so. What they wanted to do..and what they were able to do..was create a standard of Government that was based off of their own "Judeo Christian Ideals"

Moving on..if the possibility of "secularism" truly existed within this world, meaning all forms of organized religion..be they spiritual/supernatural/or natural could be removed from our society. Then there would be no need for us to have a consitution..or government for that matter. Each one of us would just rule over ourselves..and the only standard that any of us would have to subject ourselves to would be our own. Again PVS..TRUE secularism produces ANARCHY..their is no refuting this, and you provided nothing to prove to anyone that this is not the case.

What you and others like you truly want to do..is just remove "Judeo-Christian" value systems from governments and societies. You know, or at least I believe you know..(I may be giving you too much credit) that the concept of "TRUE" secularism is an impossibility, and just want to replace the "Judeo Christian" value system that embodies most modern civilizations with your own twisted..convuluted..dare I say it..DEMONIC..values.

the whob strategy of debate

1-ignore all points in a discussion

2-look for any term which leaves room for misinterpreting

3-run with it. dont think. just RUN WITH IT

meh, i see you quoting me. dont bother.
you refused to address my points, so you ended the
discussion rather cowardly.

dont try to pin that on me, since i addressed every one of
your points while you in turn dodged every one of mine.

now bring on the smilies

This thread depends on two things

1. Believing, as whob does, that any belief system is a religion

2. Believing, as whob does, that concepts such as 'unalienable rights' are impossible without religion (or in whob's case, the kind of religion with a supernatural element).

As neither of these hypotheses are very tenable, the entire thrust of the thread is entirely pointless and not worth arguing.

Originally posted by Draco69
It's an interesting topic however the definition of secularism is inaccurate:

Actually it is not. It was taken from the American Heritage dictionary..

I'll repost it for you with some more definitions from other sources..

taken from: www.dictionary.com

Secularism

Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations

taken from meriam webster online..

indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations

Either way..when the concept of secularism becomes "idealized"..or is administered as being truth in some sort of organized system..it then becomes a "religion."

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Either way..when the concept of secularism becomes "idealized"..or is administered as being truth in some sort of organized system..it then becomes a "religion."

Didn't VVD ot Ush already correct you on that misinterpretation?

Even though the very dictionary definion- something you are keen to keep on posting- of the word 'secularism' makes out that it rejects religion?

You are just insulting yourself with such idotic postings now, Whob. To call secularism a religion is simple contradiction in terms. Only a complete moron would accept your logic.