The "Religion" of Secularism..is it attempting to Destroy the "Free" World?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Actually it is not. It was taken from the American Heritage dictionary..

I'll repost it for you with some more definitions from other sources..

Either way..when the concept of secularism becomes "idealized"..or is administered as being truth in some sort of organized system..it then becomes a "religion."

But you're referancing to the philosophical definiton of secularism. I'm assuming we're discussing the socio-political definition of secularism which is entirely different:

In government, secularism means a policy of avoiding entanglement between government and religion (ranging from reducing ties to a state religion to promoting secularism in society), of non-discrimination among religions (providing they don't deny primacy of civil laws), and of guaranteeing human rights of all citizens, regardless of the creed (and, if conflicting with certain religious rules, by imposing priority of the universal human rights).

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You are just insulting yourself with such idotic postings now, Whob. To call secularism a religion is simple contradiction in terms. Only a complete moron would accept your logic.

Or postulate said logic.

No one can outrightly reject religion , i hate religion and don't believe in anything , but somewhere inside of me theirs a little part wonders what will happen once i drop dead.....

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Even though the very dictionary definion- something you are keen to keep on posting- of the word 'secularism' makes out that it rejects religion?

You are just insulting yourself with such idotic postings now, Whob. To call secularism a religion is simple contradiction in terms. Only a complete moron would accept your logic.

Only a complete moron would believe that it is possible to seperate the concept of religion from government. What part of the this definition do you not understand ush..

Religion def

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Could the zealous pursuit of "secularistic" ideals be labeled as a "cause" a "principle" or an "activity"?

Of course it can..you are more foolish than I thought if you truly believe otherwise.

As for PVS and Karmadog..I will reply to you both later..I'm at work..and I don't have time to rebut every one of your non sensical rantings as of right now. Expect a reply to all the tripe that you've posted sometime tonight.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Only a complete moron would believe that it is possible to seperate the concept of religion from government. What part of the this definition do you not understand ush..

Could the zealous pursuit of "secularistic" ideals be labeled as a "cause" a "principle" or an "activity"?

Of course it can..you are more foolish than I thought if you truly believe otherwise.

Now you have taken one of the definitions of religion from dictionary.com and tried to use it to thrust home your point.

Unfortunately, the complicated english language has many words that can be applied to various circumstances, or items, that does not make it the best word for that circumstance or use.

The full dictionary.com definition is as follows

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

All but one of those definitions relate to the spirituality of the meaning of the word. You are basing your arguement on semantics.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
As for PVS and Karmadog..I will reply to you both later..I'm at work..and I don't have time to rebut every one of your non sensical rantings as of right now. Expect a reply to all the tripe that you've posted sometime tonight.

I would like to say that I look forward to your post, but I already know what''s coming. Instead of trying to be witty (and usually failing) or insulting, I 'd much rather see you try to lamely support your arguements. However, as Ush stated:

Originally posted by whobdamandog
This thread depends on two things

1. Believing, as whob does, that any belief system is a religion

2. Believing, as whob does, that concepts such as 'unalienable rights' are impossible without religion (or in whob's case, the kind of religion with a supernatural element).

As neither of these hypotheses are very tenable, the entire thrust of the thread is entirely pointless and not worth arguing.

Originally posted by Draco69
In government, secularism means a policy of avoiding entanglement between government and religion

According to who..you? Your definition of "secularism" as it relates to government is but only ONE interpretation. It is not the ABSOLUTE definition of how the term is defined.

Anyway..as I stated before, the premise of "secularism" is illogical and quite frankly an impossibility. When one becomes devoted to the activity of secularizing government, they are essentially idealizing the activity of "secularizing government", and this then makes secularism into a religion.

Regardless of what you, PVS, Karmadog, and others state regarding the definitions I've given, it doesn't take away from their validity. Unless you want to argue with me about your opinions of stated definitions being more authoritative than my own. Trust me...I don't really think you all want to get into that.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
According to who..you? Your definition of "secularism" as it relates to government is but only ONE interpretation. It is not the ABSOLUTE definition of how the term is defined.

And the absolute definition is....?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Anyway..as I stated before, the premise of "secularism" is illogical and quite frankly an impossibility. When one becomes devoted to the activity of secularizing government, they are essentially idealizing the activity of "secularizing government", and this then makes secularism into a religion.

I don't see how government policy could possibly be religion. I'm not convinced. Especially when secularism is about seperating church and state. The very definition of secularism doesn't seem to match what makes a religion a religion. Unless you have a different definition of religion.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Now you have taken one of the definitions of religion from dictionary.com and tried to use it to thrust home your point.

Unfortunately, the complicated english language has many words that can be applied to various circumstances, or items, that does not make it the best word for that circumstance or use.

The full dictionary.com definition is as follows

Like Draco, you are assuming that I have to go solely by definitions given by yourself/others when defining the terms secularism/religion. It really doesn't matter which definition I've used..the point is that the possibilty of defining "secularism" as a religion clearly exists. If this wasn't a possibility..then you would have some credibility to your argument...unforfunately..based on it's existence..you do not.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
I would like to say that I look forward to your post, but I already know what''s coming. Instead of trying to be witty (and usually failing) or insulting, I 'd much rather see you try to lamely support your arguements. However, as Ush stated:

Well I'm glad to see that you look forward to my posts, but I do have to say that all of the arguments against what I have posted have been rather weak and disappointing. I'm not going to even bother responding to the rest of PVS's posts..most of what he posted were just one line strawman retorts. Let me repost my response to PVS..and perhaps you or others can directly rebut what I has been stated.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Do you understand that the idea you have posted is condusive to producing anarchy? A society in which everyone's "own terms" or standards becomes the "standard" would be an anarchaic one. I don't believe that the founding fathers of the US wanted to produce an anarchic system of government, rather..they wanted to produce a systematic form of government. One where an an individual could freely express their opinion..regardless of their religious faith or ideals.

The Freedoms of Speech/Expression/and Religion do not equate to "Freedom to do whatever one wants to do." The founding fathers did not want to create a secular government. In fact..I believe most of them knew that it is impossible to do so. What they wanted to do..and what they were able to do..was create a standard of Government that was based off of their own "Judeo Christian Ideals"

Moving on..if the possibility of "secularism" truly existed within this world, meaning all forms of organized religion..be they spiritual/supernatural/or natural could be removed from our society. Then there would be no need for us to have a consitution..or government for that matter. Each one of us would just rule over ourselves..and the only standard that any of us would have to subject ourselves to would be our own. Again PVS..TRUE secularism produces ANARCHY..their is no refuting this, and you provided nothing to prove to anyone that this is not the case.

What you and others like you truly want to do..is just remove "Judeo-Christian" value systems from governments and societies. You know, or at least I believe you know..(I may be giving you too much credit) that the concept of "TRUE" secularism is an impossibility, and just want to replace the "Judeo Christian" value system that embodies most modern civilizations with your own twisted..convuluted..dare I say it..DEMONIC..values.

Originally posted by Draco69
And the absolute definition is....?

Originally posted by whobdamandog

Like Draco, you are assuming that I have to go solely by definitions given by yourself/others when defining the terms secularism/religion. It really doesn't matter which definition I've used..the point is that the possibilty of defining "secularism" as a religion clearly exists. If this wasn't a possibility..then you would have some credibility to your argument...unforfunately..based on it's existence..you do not.

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't see how government policy could possibly be religion. I'm not convinced. Especially when secularism is about seperating church and state. The very definition of secularism doesn't seem to match what makes a religion a religion. Unless you have a different definition of religion.

Originally posted by whobdamandog

Religion def

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Could the zealous pursuit of "secularistic" ideals be labeled as a "cause" a "principle" or an "activity? Of course it can..you are more foolish than I thought if you truly believe otherwise.

Extra Note* This includes those "secularistic" ideals that are pursued by the government..or any beliefs/activities/priciples pursued by Government for that matter..

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Like Draco, you are assuming that I have to go solely by definitions given by yourself/others when defining the terms secularism/religion. It really doesn't matter which definition I've used..the point is that the possibilty of defining "secularism" as a religion clearly exists. If this wasn't a possibility..then you would have some credibility to your argument...unforfunately..based on it's existence..you do not.

So you are basically saying that you reserve the right to change or manipulate the meanings of words when it so suits your arguement?

Originally posted by KharmaDog
So you are basically saying that you reserve the right to change or manipulate the meanings of words when it so suits your arguement?

No, I think he's saying any idea or ideology can be coined as a religion...I think.

Originally posted by Draco69
No, I think he's saying any idea or ideology can be coined as a religion...I think.

O.K., but I still disagree with that.

Though you may adhere to a belief with religious-like fervor, that does not define it as a religion.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
As for PVS and Karmadog

reply to what? you misinterpreted a sentence in my post and ran with it on a 4 paragraph rant relevant to precisely nothing that i or anyone said, all the time ignoring valid points. wtf do i care what you have to say?

please, spare me the belly aching and overuse of smilies, i get the picture already. "waaaa waaaaa anarchist waaaaaa waaaaa group think waaaa waaaaa" noted

Originally posted by Draco69
No, I think he's saying any idea or ideology can be coined as a religion...I think.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Administering any ideology in an systematic/organized fashion, then turns that ideology into a religion.

Religion def

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

After many upon many posts..you finally took the time to read what I've posted.

So yes..any philosophy/activity/etc..followed with "conscientious" zeal and devotion..can be classified as a religion..

Originally posted by KharmaDog
O.K., but I still disagree with that.

Though you may adhere to a belief with religious-like fervor, that does not define it as a religion.

Well you're disagreeing with the Dictionary...write a letter to the lexicographers of the American Heritage Dictionary..and present your argument over the definition with them.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Well you're disagreeing with the Dictionary...write a letter to the lexicographers of the American Heritage Dictionary..and present your argument over the definition with them.

Please refer to my previous post:

Originally posted by Kharmadog
Now you have taken one of the definitions of religion from dictionary.com and tried to use it to thrust home your point.

Unfortunately, the complicated english language has many words that can be applied to various circumstances, or items, that does not make it the best word for that circumstance or use.

The full dictionary.com definition is as follows

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

All but one of those definitions relate to the spirituality of the meaning of the word. You are basing your argument on semantics.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Please refer to my previous post:

All but one of those definitions relate to the spirituality of the meaning of the word. You are basing your argument on semantics.

Originally posted by whobdamandog

Like Draco, you are assuming that I have to go solely by definitions given by yourself/others when defining the terms secularism/religion. It really doesn't matter which definition I've used..the point is that the possibilty of defining "secularism" as a religion clearly exists. If this wasn't a possibility..then you would have some credibility to your argument...unforfunately..based on it's existence..you do not.

Which one of us is playing a game of semantics? Come on now my friend..what argument have you really presented that clearly refutes mine? This is getting silly..you all have clearly lost this argument.

Have a good night.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Which one of us is playing a game of semantics? Come on now my friend..what argument have you really presented that clearly refutes mine? This is getting silly..you all have clearly lost this argument.

Take Care..

Merely playing the game that you started. And we have not lost this argument, because as Ush stated, the arguement is moot.

But it is comforting to see you sit back and use the old tactics of declaring a non existant victory. I am sure the insults will soon follow.

whobdamandog, why do you insist that returning the world to divinely inspired medievalism will somehow restore a certain order and morality that never existed in the first place (outside of myth and senile/bias recollection)?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
whobdamandog, why do you insist that returning the world to divinely inspired medievalism will somehow restore a certain order and morality that never existed in the first place (outside of myth and senile/bias recollection)?

Actually what I truly hope that the world to returns to a state where divinely inspired idealism is the norm. This world would be comprised of order/freedom/love/and rightousness... and wouldn't attempt to masquerade selfishness/anarchy/bondage as truth.

Let me ask you all a few questions..what real spiritual/moral/physical benifits does secularism offer humanity?

If one does not have anything to look forward to after death..what is the purpose of living?

Would it not just make more sense for one to kill themselves as soon as they came of an age where they understood that life has no true purpose?

Originally posted by whobdamandog

If one does not have anything to look forward to after death..what is the purpose of living?

Carpe diem.