Phoenix Force vs. Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Xplosive
If TOAA is boss of LT, it's also boss of Phoenix Force. If someone created Phoenix Force, which it was, it was created by TOAA. He is not called THE ONE ABOVE ALL for nothing cause he is ABOVE ALL, competley ABOVE EVERYTHING.

With people disputing the Phoenix/God connection i recently looked into the LT/God connection and found that the case for such a relationship was incredibly poor. Nowhere on panel has it ever been stated that TOAA is marvels supreme being. That was just an assumption that everyone around here seems to have lapped up. All thats ever been said about LT's boss is that hes beyond the IG and Eternity. Thats all. That doesnt conclusively make you supreme being because since the IG saga there have been a number of powers shown to be greater than those things.

By your logic the Celestial called TOAA would be greater than LT,IG, Phoenix etc.

It has been suggested that TOAA is the supreme being. However with nothing stated its not canon.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Seeing what Eternity has been talking about, Eternity thinks actully that Phoenix is beyond any abstracts, including LT.

Agreed

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
yeah, i glanced over this scan

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8223/xmenforever6p161zq.jpg

Ok cool. X-men Forever fits in with what was said in Classic X-men:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By your logic the Celestial called TOAA would be greater than LT,IG, Phoenix etc.

I knew you are going to say that. Bur forger Celestail, he is nothing
to LT.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It has been suggested that TOAA is the supreme being. However with nothing stated its not canon. [/B]

For TOAA is 99,999...% chance that is actually supreme being with no limits. Didnt' even almighy Thanos with HOTU (I don't remember really) said that was maipulated by someone even greater.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I knew you are going to say that. Bur forger Celestail, he is nothing
to LT.

And thats precisely the point. Your logic is that the very name TOAA should be proof enough that LTs master is the supreme being, however the very fact that a Celestial exists who goes by that same name shows you the faulty nature of that logic. All that has been stated about TOAA is that its beyond the IG and Eternity. Many powers are.

So again while its suggested that TOAA might just be Marvels supreme being we dont know for sure as nothings been stated as it has been in DC for example.

Originally posted by Xplosive
For TOAA is 99,999...% chance that is actually supreme being with no limits. Didnt' even almighy Thanos with HOTU (I don't remember really) said that was maipulated by someone even greater.

Yes but he didnt say that the manipulation was by TOAA. Ive already highlighted what was revealed about TOAA. For all we know Thanos was beyond TOAA (being beyond Eternity and the IG) and theres a supreme being in Marvel which has yet to be revealed. We just dont know.

the era of the living jobber is comming to an end

Originally posted by Mider
the era of the living jobber is comming to an end

Indeed. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes but he didnt say that the manipulation was by TOAA. Ive already highlighted what was revealed about TOAA. For all we know Thanos was beyond TOAA (being beyond Eternity and the IG) and theres a supreme being in Marvel which has yet to be revealed. We just dont know.

He was manipulated by God Almighty or TOAA (because no one else could do it). No, we don't know Thanos was beyond TOAA (what are you talking about). We know TOAA is beyond LT, LT is powered by him. TOAA is still the one who manipualted Thanos.
If you know Thanos is beyond TOAA (really don't know what are you talking aobut), than I also know TOAA is beyond Thanos (all we know Thanos was manipualted, and that is probably by God or in other words, by TOAA). He said, there is even greater force, well yes, TOAA or The One Above All, cause he is above all, Thanos said, there is even greater force, and The One Above All (the one who LT refered to and not Celestial), means greater force than anything. Thanos Almighty was manipualted by TOAA. All we know THOTU is beyond Phoenix Force.
Supreme being will never be revealed, the Supreme being is the one who manipulated Thanos, and that is TOAA.
You always said TOAA is beyond anything unitl recent, until you were convinced about Phoenix Force, when you accepted that is not part of TOAA, that it's not fact. You turned against TOAA, like you are jelaous, because Phoenix Force is not part of TOAA.
Supreme beign will never be shown, only mentioned that he manipulated THOTU, what more do you want (easily manipulated THOTU), I think that is enough aobut seeing the supreme being (because you won't get any higher than that).
We know THOTU showed power that made LT insect including Phoenix Force and any other cosmic entity, being. And was still manipulated by higher being, so, we really won't get any higher than that.

Originally posted by Xplosive
He was manipulated by God Almighty or TOAA (because no one else could do it). No, we don't know Thanos was beyond TOAA (what are you talking about). We know TOAA is beyond LT, LT is powered by him. TOAA is still the one who manipualted Thanos.
If you know Thanos is beyond TOAA (really don't know what are you talking aobut), than I also know TOAA is beyond Thanos (all we know Thanos was manipualted, and that is probably by God or in other words, by TOAA). He said, there is even greater force, well yes, TOAA or The One Above All, cause he is above all, Thanos said, there is even greater force, and The One Above All (the one who LT refered to and not Celestial), means greater force than anything. Thanos Almighty was manipualted by TOAA. All we know THOTU is beyond Phoenix Force.
Supreme being will never be revealed, the Supreme being is the one who manipulated Thanos, and that is TOAA.
You always said TOAA is beyond anything unitl recent, until you were convinced about Phoenix Force, when you accepted that is not part of TOAA, that it's not fact. You turned against TOAA, like you are jelaous, because Phoenix Force is not part of TOAA.
Supreme beign will never be shown, only mentioned that he manipulated THOTU, what more do you want (easily manipulated THOTU), I think that is enough aobut seeing the supreme being (because you won't get any higher than that).
We know THOTU showed power that made LT insect including Phoenix Force and any other cosmic entity, being. And was still manipulated by higher being, so, we really won't get any higher than that.

Your entire post is based on the assumption that TOAA is the supreme being of Marvel. XP you need to understand that that is only an assumption it is not a canon fact as that point has never ever been stated in any Marvel comic. Regardless of whats suggested it hasnt been stated therefore its not canon.

I never said that Thanos with HOTU was beyond TOAA i said FOR ALL WE KNOW Thanos was beyond TOAA. Why? Because all we have ever been told about TOAA is that its LTs boss and that its a force beyond the IG and Eternity. Thats all. Many powers are beyond those things but are they to supreme beings?

In Marvel Universe The End Thanos speculated that HOTU was the supreme beings power, you need to understand that. Nowhere was it stated by a non biased source(e.g a character or caption other than Thanos) that it was the supreme beings power. Thanos just came to this conclusion because of the scope of the power and what it enabled him to do. He said the same thing about the IG and that turned out to be far from the case. All we know about it is that its a powerful energy source that enabled Thanos to humble LT and destroy 616. The same thing has been achieved by Korvac with the assembled power of 6 cosmics and is as stated/shown on panel well within the capabilities of the Phoenix Force.

You've said that Thanos said there was a force beyond HOTU. It wasnt stated that that was TOAA. On top of that LT never claimed a connection to the power behind HOTU therefore you've just made an unsupported assumption.

Please dont reply with a long post saying why you think TOAA is the supreme being. That has never ever been stated. Therefore its not canon. That is a fact. I will say once again, all that has been revealed about LTs master is that its beyond the IG and Eternity. Many forces are so that in itself doesnt make it the supreme being.

Its name TOAA also isnt enough to treat it as the supreme being as there are other beings with the same name so that is faulty logic.

The reason im doing this XP is because regardless of the wealth of evidence supporting a god connection for Phoenix, without the point being stated on panel i had to accept that it wasnt canon, only heavily suggested. Your entire argument above is based on assumptions theres little fact to it, no on panel evidence conclusively verifying it. You need to accept that while Marvel does for all we know have a supreme being, it is not conclusively TOAA.

all this talk about supreme being makes my head hurt! why don't we talk about what really matters, who would win in a fight Monkey Joe or Tippie Toe?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
all that has been revealed about LTs master is that its beyond the IG and Eternity.

And beyond LT himself, and in MU, there actully isn't anyone beyond LT, maybe only Phoenix, no one else.
And DC/Marvel crossover, remember, weren't they looking for the same supreme bieng, in DC called The Presence (who we know is the supreme being in DCU) and LT refered to TOAA his master, and both DC/Marvel were looking for the same being, the same God, and we know in DCU, The Presence is supreme. And if they were looking the same, doesn't that mean, LT's master (who is TOAA) is the same being as The Presence. Canon or not, but doesn't that tell that Marvel obviously think that LT's master is the supreme being as is The Presence.

LT's feats dont show him being as powerful as anyone has said in the past they say in a what if he humbled Pheonix but as its shown in this thread Pheonix humbles him now because of her conection to the living aspects of the universe she cant be destroyed when galactus tried to consume her the stars began to die but in this thread its been shown that she recreatas everything does LT have that kind of power since not even TOAA has had that power when Thanos was TOAA IMO he had to expend all his powers just to recreate the multiverse i think that every universe has its own PF that recreats it or whatever if its destroyed. There are other lesser known characters in the MU called the time twisters they tried destroying everything by going from the end of time to the very beginning along the way they would destroy the previous universe. They had the power to age something to the point of being dust or to regress it to the point of never being created there judgements were said to be beyond even that of the LT.

Originally posted by Mider
LT's feats dont show him being as powerful as anyone has said in the past they say in a what if he humbled Pheonix but as its shown in this thread Pheonix humbles him now because of her conection to the living aspects of the universe she cant be destroyed when galactus tried to consume her the stars began to die but in this thread its been shown that she recreatas everything does LT have that kind of power since not even TOAA has had that power when Thanos was TOAA IMO he had to expend all his powers just to recreate the multiverse i think that every universe has its own PF that recreats it or whatever if its destroyed.

THOTU recreated the universe and all life with a blink of an eye and gave new rule, I think if THOTU would chose he could do to the Phoenix Force to never exist and could give new rule for who to create new universe. THOTU is immesurably beyond Phoenix Force.
But was still control by higher beings, probably by TOAA himself.

ummm THOTU was thanos powers and he had to kill himself or didnt you read the ending were warlock said he had to sacrifice himself thats the reason TOAA gave him his powers in the first place so he himself wouldnt have to die.

Originally posted by Mider
ummm THOTU was thanos powers and he had to kill himself or didnt you read the ending were warlock said he had to sacrifice himself thats the reason TOAA gave him his powers in the first place so he himself wouldnt have to die.

What, Thanos didn't kill himself. He only realized he is not the being to wield almighty power.

what do you mean he didnt kill himself it was shown in the end he sacrificed himself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With people disputing the Phoenix/God connection i recently looked into the LT/God connection and found that the case for such a relationship was incredibly poor. Nowhere on panel has it ever been stated that TOAA is marvels supreme being. That was just an assumption that everyone around here seems to have lapped up. All thats ever been said about LT's boss is that hes beyond the IG and Eternity. Thats all. That doesnt conclusively make you supreme being because since the IG saga there have been a number of powers shown to be greater than those things.

By your logic the Celestial called TOAA would be greater than LT,IG, Phoenix etc.

It has been suggested that TOAA is the supreme being. However with nothing stated its not canon.

Agreed

yes its true that the existance of TOAA is vaguely hinted n people should accept that, however for the sake of clarity TOAA is said to exist as the unseen higher power, ofcourse its no more concrete than ur version of the pheonix n people should stop debatin mindlessly that TOAA gave thanos THOTU or watever cause thas never been proven.

it sure seemed proven by thanos himself when he said he was tricked.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And beyond LT himself, and in MU, there actully isn't anyone beyond LT, maybe only Phoenix, no one else.
And DC/Marvel crossover, remember, weren't they looking for the same supreme bieng, in DC called The Presence (who we know is the supreme being in DCU) and LT refered to TOAA his master, and both DC/Marvel were looking for the same being, the same God, and we know in DCU, The Presence is supreme. And if they were looking the same, doesn't that mean, LT's master (who is TOAA) is the same being as The Presence. Canon or not, but doesn't that tell that Marvel obviously think that LT's master is the supreme being as is The Presence.

In that crossover they were apparently going to have one of the brothers as TOAA and one as the Presence however as the idea was scrapped, the fact that that crossover has never been canon and also that the brothers were retconned recently in X-men adventures that means you cant look into that and make assumptions and try to pass them off in debate as canon fact. It just doesnt work like that.

Originally posted by Xplosive
THOTU recreated the universe and all life with a blink of an eye and gave new rule, I think if THOTU would chose he could do to the Phoenix Force to never exist and could give new rule for who to create new universe. THOTU is immesurably beyond Phoenix Force.
But was still control by higher beings, probably by TOAA himself.

This is another assumption and its not supported XP. If you think HOTU is beyond The Phoenix Force than fair enough thats up to you, however you cant state that point as canon fact on these boards. That point cant be treated as such when theres no on panel evidence supporting it. The Phoenix Force wasnt even involved in that saga and on top of that the feats Thanos accomplished with HOTU have been bettered in the past by Phoenix. A connection between TOAA and HOTU was never established. LT never commented once on the origins of the power. Again i say for all we know Thanos with HOTU was more powerful than TOAA as all thats been revealed is that its more powerful than the IG. Nothing has been shown or stated to make the idea that its the supreme being canon.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes its true that the existance of TOAA is vaguely hinted n people should accept that, however for the sake of clarity TOAA is said to exist as the unseen higher power, ofcourse its no more concrete than ur version of the pheonix n people should stop debatin mindlessly that TOAA gave thanos THOTU or watever cause thas never been proven.

True but my idea of Phoenix has considerably more on panel support.