Phoenix Force vs. Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is another assumption and its not supported XP. If you think HOTU is beyond The Phoenix Force than fair enough thats up to you, however you cant state that point as canon fact on these boards. That point cant be treated as such when theres no on panel evidence supporting it.

Again, I didn't say as canon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force wasnt even involved in that saga and on top of that the feats Thanos accomplished with HOTU have been bettered in the past by Phoenix.[/B]

Only beacuse THOTU was for two issues. Phoenix is here, puf, too long.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A connection between TOAA and HOTU was never established. LT never commented once on the origins of the power. Again i say for all we know Thanos with HOTU was more powerful than TOAA[/B]

What are you talking about. We don't know that, what. All we know it was controled by higher being (canon), that is what we know. And all we know for 100% is that there is higher power than THOTU (and the one will never be revealed, only mentioned, like it was by Thanos).

Originally posted by Xplosive
Again, I didn't say as canon.

Well if youre not saying its canon then you should make that point clear when weighing the powers up against each other. Previously you were talking as if your ideas had some basis in fact, that you were conclusively right.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Only beacuse THOTU was for two issues. Phoenix is here, puf, too long.

How do you know thats the only reason why Phoenix has better feats. That statement in itself is an assumption that HOTU is more powerful when you have no evidence to support such a claim. It could just be that it simply isnt as powerful. But who knows.

Originally posted by Xplosive
What are you talking about. We don't know that, what. All we know it was controled by higher being (canon), that is what we know. And all we know for 100% is that there is higher power than THOTU (and the one will never be revealed, only mentioned, like it was by Thanos).

XP you seem to be getting caught up on my wording. Just like last time i said FOR ALL WE KNOW Thanos with HOTU was more powerful than TOAA. Meaning that as nothing conclusive is stated on the matter, you cant argue against or for the point. Its just a possibility. All we know of TOAA is that its beyond the IG and as the same thing is stated about HOTU and as no connection is drawn between HOTU and TOAA you its possible that HOTU is more powerful than TOAA.

We know nothing of TOAA to claim him to be the supreme being . The being Thanos speculated to be manipulating him into carrying out its work could be virtually anyone.

why are you two still fighting this thread is to show that the pheonix is more powerful then the Living Tribunal.....its already been done.

Originally posted by Mider
why are you two still fighting this thread is to show that the pheonix is more powerful then the Living Tribunal.....its already been done.

Oh we're not debating that point we're just debating over who TOAA is and where HOTU comes from.

Youre right LTs been dealt with. We did it Mider 😉

LT MUAHAHAHAHA BOW YOUR HEAD IN SHAME BEFORE THOSE WHO HAVE DEFEATED YOU YOU LOWLY SECOND CLASS WANNA BE SPECTRE..........but anyway if Thanos The End is indeed canon from what i read and i hope i know what i read less im losing it and dont know it (its a possibility) thanos was indeed TOAA because when refuring to who's powers had been taken thanos infurred that eternity knew this being and was so scared of him that he never dared to ask anything and the LT called this power and eternity as well they called it the power supreme

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How do you know thats the only reason why Phoenix has better feats.

Because that is the only reason. And wait, no Phoenix feats equals that of THOTU. Completely humilating the enitre powerhouses, everyone, everyone, destroying and recreating universe with new rule with a blink of an eye, deleting mamory of everyone.
No Phoenix feats surpasses that. What, holding universe in pale of her hands, also Living Tribunal would be able to do that. Or with difficult defeating Galactus or M'Krann crystal (which maby isn't greater feat than LT easily dwaring the power of IG, while IG made Eternity insect), well LT could also do that, stoping M'Krann crystal. Or mentioned by Eternity that Phoenix is what it is (but it was no feat, only word from Eternity).
Now tell me Phoenix feat. No Phoenix feat can match the one of THOTU.
I believe Phoenix is more powerful than LT, but insect to THOTU.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We know nothing of TOAA to claim him to be the supreme being . The being Thanos speculated to be manipulating him into carrying out its work could be virtually anyone.

The End showed there is higher force than THOTU.

Originally posted by Mider
LT MUAHAHAHAHA BOW YOUR HEAD IN SHAME BEFORE THOSE WHO HAVE DEFEATED YOU YOU LOWLY SECOND CLASS WANNA BE SPECTRE..........but anyway if Thanos The End is indeed canon from what i read and i hope i know what i read less im losing it and dont know it (its a possibility) thanos was indeed TOAA because when refuring to who's powers had been taken thanos infurred that eternity knew this being and was so scared of him that he never dared to ask anything and the LT called this power and eternity as well they called it the power supreme

Thanos had almitghy power, but it was shown there is even force higher than that, the one who manipulated Thanos, the one is probably the supreme being. And you can't get higher than that.
And it won't probably get any higher than that. There won't be ever again such power in Marvel shown as it was THOTU, and even THOTU said there is greater force. So that is the ultimate was had seen in Marvel.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Because that is the only reason. And wait, no Phoenix feats equals that of THOTU. Completely humilating the enitre powerhouses, everyone, everyone, destroying and recreating universe with new rule with a blink of an eye, deleting mamory of everyone.
No Phoenix feats surpasses that. What, holding universe in pale of her hands, also Living Tribunal would be able to do that. Or with difficult defeating Galactus or M'Krann crystal (which maby isn't greater feat than LT easily dwaring the power of IG, while IG made Eternity insect), well LT could also do that, stoping M'Krann crystal. Or mentioned by Eternity that Phoenix is what it is (but it was no feat, only word from Eternity).
Now tell me Phoenix feat. No Phoenix feat can match the one of THOTU.
I believe Phoenix is more powerful than LT, but insect to THOTU.

Read the Spectre against the Marvel Universe thread (should be on one of the first few pages of the forum) to see an in depth debate about LT vs the IG. He never dwarfed its power its debatable how he stands up to the IGs power. He even agreed with Adam that he didnt know how he would stand up against it. With that in mind noone can say hes beyond the IG. LTs greatest feat to date is causing a supernova with a an energy blast. Thats the reality all assumptions and speculation aside. Please dont give loads of reasons why you think hes beyond the IG because with that on panel scene in mind to do so would be pointless. Please skim through the aforementioned thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=385520&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=6

The IG only humbled Eternitys MBody, the embodiment of the universe WITHIN reality. Eternity himself said in Infinity Watch #1 that if he faced the IG in his totality as opposed to his M Body then the IG wouldnt be able to affect him in the slightest. Similarly Thanos only faced Eternitys MBody and after defeating him in battle he did admittedly absorb 616 and LT.

However Phoenix accidentally killed the ACTUAL 616 universe by amputating its future and then casually reconstructed it in the palm of her hand atom by atom telekinetically. Phoenix dealt with the ACTUAL 616 universe, not its embodiment, its representation WITHIN reality. Thats a feat on another level. Beyond the IG or the HOTU.

Thanos absorbed a universe which is created by Phoenix anyway. When she killed 616 one of the avatars said to her dont worry about it he wouldnt bother as if a universe isnt anything to the Phoenixes but out of love for her family and friends she recreated that universe telekinetically in the palm of her hand. Thanos absorbed and then emitted a universe thats not on the same level.

On top of that, the M'kraan crystal is a multiversal reset switch. Its power was called absolute, the heart of the universe. When its power threatened to wipe out all existence Phoenixes power held it in check and she bound it in an energy lattice. She held back the power that was about to wipe out all of existence as stated on panel. Thats beyond anything shown by HOTU or the IG. Phoenix has better feats.

Originally posted by Xplosive
The End showed there is higher force than THOTU.

It never showed anything XP. Thanos speculated that this power source came from the supreme being and that the whole thing was just a part of the supreme beings plan. That is all. That wasnt verified on panel by any other source in the series. It was just Thanos' speculation, he is known for it. He also speculated the same thing about the IG. That was found to be incorrect. Either way no connection between LTs master and the power was made.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Thanos had almitghy power, but it was shown there is even force higher than that, the one who manipulated Thanos, the one is probably the supreme being. And you can't get higher than that.
And it won't probably get any higher than that. There won't be ever again such power in Marvel shown as it was THOTU, and even THOTU said there is greater force. So that is the ultimate was had seen in Marvel.

Thanos speculated all of that. You need to understand that. The nature and origin of the power was never conclusively revealed. Thanos just gave us an insight into where he thought the power came from and why he managed to get hold of it. None of it was confirmed by any other source within the series.

HOTU never provided us with the highest feats we've seen in Marvel.

Thanos' speculation must not be taken as canon fact. Remember he speculated about the IG being the supreme beings power as well.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The IG only humbled Eternitys MBody, the embodiment of the universe WITHIN reality. Eternity himself said in Infinity Watch #1 that if he faced the IG in his totality as opposed to his M Body then the IG wouldnt be able to affect him in the slightest. Similarly Thanos only faced Eternitys MBody and after defeating him in battle he did admittedly absorb 616 and LT.

Hahahhahahahahahahahah, do you have in mind Eternity could stand against THOTU. LT was easily destroyed, forget about MBody. LT wasn't affected agatnst IG, he easily stoped IG to work, that is enough for me too tell he is beyond, having the power to stop IG working. Maybe you have in mind Eternity could give battle to THOTU, hahhahaha.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However Phoenix accidentally killed the ACTUAL 616 universe by amputating its future and then casually reconstructed it in the palm of her hand atom by atom telekinetically. Phoenix dealt with the ACTUAL 616 universe, not its embodiment, its representation WITHIN reality. Thats a feat on another level. Beyond the IG or the HOTU.

Thanos absorbed a universe which is created by Phoenix anyway. When she killed 616 one of the avatars said to her dont worry about it he wouldnt bother as if a universe isnt anything to the Phoenixes but out of love for her family and friends she recreated that universe telekinetically in the palm of her hand. Thanos absorbed and then emitted a universe thats not on the same level.

On top of that, the M'kraan crystal is a multiversal reset switch. Its power was called absolute, the heart of the universe. When its power threatened to wipe out all existence Phoenixes power held it in check and she bound it in an energy lattice. She held back the power that was about to wipe out all of existence as stated on panel. Thats beyond anything shown by HOTU or the IG. Phoenix has better feats.

You do realize LT would be abl;e to easily stop M'KRann crystal.
And stopind M'Kran crystal isn't close to the feat humiliating evey major powerhouses in MU. When THOTU battle MU (if we can even say battle), it didn't matter is it THOTU vs ant or THOTU vs MU, literally.
No feat of Phoenix matches that.
I wonder why Phoenix wasn't there to oppose THOTU, did they forget Phoenix, or they just didn;t want to show Phoenix getting destroyed.
But I think writer just forgot it.

LT never stopped the IG he only put the cosmics back in there places and from his own mouth and expression he thought that he couldnt stop the IG if it came down to war no he had to talk Warlock into giving up the IG and thanos wasnt manipulated physically the being who's power he took who i think was TOAA tricked him Thanos said it was a cruel joke not that he was forced to take the power and you can try and prove that LT can easily stop the m kron crystal but i dont think you will do so perhaps he can but then again perhaps he cant his powers have only been shown to be above eternity while there are beings that dwarf the power of the IG and thus can defeat LT when Korvac gained the combined power of six cosmics he was more powerful then eternity in my mind since eternity did nothing to stop him from killing him but beside that LT admitted defeat to his power not being able to stop him instead he fled leaving the universe to die...............bad day at work for the so called gaurdian of the multiverse.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Hahahhahahahahahahahah, do you have in mind Eternity could stand against THOTU. LT was easily destroyed, forget about MBody. LT wasn't affected agatnst IG, he easily stoped IG to work, that is enough for me too tell he is beyond, having the power to stop IG working. Maybe you have in mind Eternity could give battle to THOTU, hahhahaha.

So with insufficient resources to effectively counter what i said you've resorted to trying to mock my argument and then have just posted more opinion and assumption. You've gotta understand that that holds no weight here.

I previously gave you a link to a thread where an in-depth debate about Eternity, LT and the IG situation has been had. I see you have chosen not to bother to look at it. That is quite evident from your reply. It is stated on panel that Eternitys M body isnt his totality, its just a representation of himself within his totality which is the actual 616 universe. As stated in his totality the power of the IG would not be able to affect him. I never once said that in his totality he would be able to defeat HOTU, i just was making the point that defeating Eternitys M Body is something thats been accomplished by many a power other than HOTU.

LT never stopped the power of the IG XP, Adam shot a blast of power at the court and LT being the most powerful there (out of the abstracts) withstood the blast and negated its effects on the the other abstracts. The blast wasnt full power as the abstracts were at point blank range and caught it in the face. It was a display of anger from Adam. Later on in the court session LT agreed with Adam that he didnt know how his power would fare against the IGs. That statement means you absolutely cannot say that LT is beyond the IG because if he doesnt know himself who are you to answer for him? You are'nt a comic book writer, you dont work for Marvel, the statement is there, no more opinion please.

Originally posted by Xplosive
You do realize LT would be abl;e to easily stop M'KRann crystal.

Based on what? XP you've got to stop doing this. This is more speculation and its completely 100% unsupported in the comics. In face of on panel evidence stating otherwise opinion means nothing. It was stated on panel that only a Phoenixs power can work the M'kraan crystal. With that in mind the matters not debatable.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And stopind M'Kran crystal isn't close to the feat humiliating evey major powerhouses in MU.

Thats an absurd statement XP. Especially when you consider the amount of beings who have faced off against the MU and beat down the powers. These days thats nothing special, it just says youre beyond the abstracts who arent exactly the most powerful forces in Marvel like the old days. Picking a fight with the heroes of ONE reality and the cosmic powers of ONE reality is nothing compared to withstanding and then containing a power which wipes out ALL realities. That much is quite obvious.

Originally posted by Xplosive
When THOTU battle MU (if we can even say battle), it didn't matter is it THOTU vs ant or THOTU vs MU, literally.
No feat of Phoenix matches that.

Thanos with HOTU fought and defeated the powers of one reality. He then absorbed that reality. Both feats have been accomplished by a number of beings in Marvel such as Galactus' enemy in Thanos' last series and Phoenix consumes reality every creation cycle as part of the natural order anyway as stated on panel. Not Marvels top feat. Even Anti Monitor absorbed many realities and fought the heroes and powers of DC universe (giving him greater feats than Thanos with HOTU by your logic). After feeling guilty he emitted the reality he'd absorbed.

Thats a nice feat, but its not the top one featured in Marvel. Phoenix has withstood and held in check the power which wipes out the Marvel multiverse. Thats far more impressive than the strictly universal affairs Thanos was involved with.

On top of that Thanos may have fought the powers and absorbed the universe but Phoenix killed the universe just like that as a side effect of her Phoenix work. She didnt have to go in reality and over power the forces within. They were all bypassed and wiped out as she carried out her higher duties (i.e disinfecting that reality and amputating its potential for a future leaving it in a static state). Another avatar then said to her dont worry about its only a universe he'd just leave it dead!! Do you see how insignificant a mere universe is to the White Crown Phoenix, yet youre championing Thanos for dominating and absorbing one. One which the White Crown Phoenix out of an act of kindness recreated in the palm of her hand on a whim.

Anyone with an objective mind can see feats wise HOTU certainly isnt top, many beings have absorbed a universe, in fact theres beings who have absorbed many realities rendering Thanos' feat redundant anyway. Phoenix tops HOTU for feats. With that in mind you cant say HOTU is conclusively beyond Phoenix because for feats she has it beat.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I wonder why Phoenix wasn't there to oppose THOTU, did they forget Phoenix, or they just didn;t want to show Phoenix getting destroyed.
But I think writer just forgot it.

I can only assume it wasnt her jurisdiction or the writer just never thought to use her. But then you can turn it around and say where was LT during the M'kraan crystal incident? That threatened to blink out the multiverse which would effectively have left him unemployed. But noone seems to remember that. The fact of the matter is that it wasnt his jurisdiction because as stated only Phoenix can work the crystal, hence why she was there for a threat debatably greater than the others you've mentioned.

Both of them werent there to stop Wanda during House of M. Does that detract from their roles in Marvel? No. We really have no answer as to why that was the case. It works both ways.

I think it's clear that the intent of The end is to show HOTU is superior to LT.

GS IIRC used to maintain that LT and PF are equal status but play different roles, and both are probably serving TOAA. In each of their areas , they are supreme. PF creates and ends universes, LT maintains then.

So when the time comes for PF to do it job, it will 'win'. It's PF role.

With HOTU, we actually see Thanos with HOTU absorbing LT and all the abstracts *against their will*. So HOTU>LT for sure.

Can PF do it? Possibly, as I understand it, that is the plan of the Stranger , to replace all the abstracts. There is some dispute whether LT is included in their number in this scenario, but let's assume he is included.

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this never really happens though. It's part of the plan but it's not shown ever happening.

So on this point HOTU demostrates a real feat against a possible PF one. Granted a possible feat that seems likely to happen because The stranger thinks it will work.

The replacement of all the abstracts by humanity is one that is the natural part of cycle, it is stated that the abstracts will not fight against it.

In the Long run when PF destroys the universe, and evolved mutants replaces the abstracts it won't be a power struggle, just part of nature.

Thantos with HOTU usperhing that role seems to me to be a much bigger feat since it goes against natural order.

On top of that Thanos may have fought the powers and absorbed the universe but Phoenix killed the universe just like that as a side effect of her Phoenix work.

Does this feat show on panel the absorbing of LT? If not, it's impressive, but in comics it's fairly common to see universes being destroyed. That does not imply that LT is destroyed.

I think the impressive thing about HOTU's feat is not the ending of the universe (which let's face it isn't that rare in comics!) , but we have a straight forward depiction of LT being owned completely.

There are whatifs, and other situations where we see the will of LT being blocked, but AFAIK Thantos with HOTU is the only one where we actually see LT being totally absorbed on screen. That is impressive!

Sure some speculation might sugguest that evolved humans might replace LT (I'm not sure about this point, LT seems to be a different class from Eternity and other abstracts, but let me concede the point here) , but we never see it happen, so it still remains speculation.

LT went up against Spectre in the Crossovers. Can Phoenix Force defeat Spectre?

Originally posted by Richrf
I think it's clear that the intent of The end is to show HOTU is superior to LT.

GS IIRC used to maintain that LT and PF are equal status but play different roles, and both are probably serving TOAA. In each of their areas , they are supreme. PF creates and ends universes, LT maintains then.

So when the time comes for PF to do it job, it will 'win'. It's PF role.

With HOTU, we actually see Thanos with HOTU absorbing LT and all the abstracts *against their will*. So HOTU>LT for sure.

Can PF do it? Possibly, as I understand it, that is the plan of the Stranger , to replace all the abstracts. There is some dispute whether LT is included in their number in this scenario, but let's assume he is included.

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this never really happens though. It's part of the plan but it's not shown ever happening.

So on this point HOTU demostrates a real feat against a possible PF one. Granted a possible feat that seems likely to happen because The stranger thinks it will work.

The replacement of all the abstracts by humanity is one that is the natural part of cycle, it is stated that the abstracts will not fight against it.

In the Long run when PF destroys the universe, and evolved mutants replaces the abstracts it won't be a power struggle, just part of nature.

Thantos with HOTU usperhing that role seems to me to be a much bigger feat since it goes against natural order.

Does this feat show on panel the absorbing of LT? If not, it's impressive, but in comics it's fairly common to see universes being destroyed. That does not imply that LT is destroyed.

I think the impressive thing about HOTU's feat is not the ending of the universe (which let's face it isn't that rare in comics!) , but we have a straight forward depiction of LT being owned completely.

There are whatifs, and other situations where we see the will of LT being blocked, but AFAIK Thantos with HOTU is the only one where we actually see LT being totally absorbed on screen. That is impressive!

Sure some speculation might sugguest that evolved humans might replace LT (I'm not sure about this point, LT seems to be a different class from Eternity and other abstracts, but let me concede the point here) , but we never see it happen, so it still remains speculation.

What on earth are u waffling about Richie? 😕

I'll deal with this mess tomorrow.

Leon u need not apply 🙄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
True but my idea of Phoenix has considerably more on panel support.

yes but it is an IDEA, an idea that has been denied n proven wrong many times, the thing is, the whenever toaa has been hinted etc, it was not denied, n since there are only one or two such instances there is almost no ambiguity, nor contradictions by any other comic, TOAA is an idea, a good idea, but an idea nonetheless, UR version of the pheonix force however is flawed, manipulated n proven wrong, n almost never right. TOAA has neither been proven. NOR been disproven, but there is more reason to believe he is there as opposed to him not beeing there n for clarity's sake we do, there are no such arguments for ur pheonix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What on earth are u waffling about Richie? 😕

I'll deal with this mess tomorrow.

Leon u need not apply 🙄

Just trying to emulate your essay style, GS just with more objectivity. I state points both good and bad for PF.

I can't wait to be enlightened....

Originally posted by Richrf
I think it's clear that the intent of The end is to show HOTU is superior to LT.

GS IIRC used to maintain that LT and PF are equal status but play different roles, and both are probably serving TOAA. In each of their areas , they are supreme. PF creates and ends universes, LT maintains then.

So when the time comes for PF to do it job, it will 'win'. It's PF role.

With HOTU, we actually see Thanos with HOTU absorbing LT and all the abstracts *against their will*. So HOTU>LT for sure.

Can PF do it? Possibly, as I understand it, that is the plan of the Stranger , to replace all the abstracts. There is some dispute whether LT is included in their number in this scenario, but let's assume he is included.

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this never really happens though. It's part of the plan but it's not shown ever happening.

So on this point HOTU demostrates a real feat against a possible PF one. Granted a possible feat that seems likely to happen because The stranger thinks it will work.

The replacement of all the abstracts by humanity is one that is the natural part of cycle, it is stated that the abstracts will not fight against it.

In the Long run when PF destroys the universe, and evolved mutants replaces the abstracts it won't be a power struggle, just part of nature.

Thantos with HOTU usperhing that role seems to me to be a much bigger feat since it goes against natural order.

The replacement of the abstracts isnt just a plan of Strangers. According to X-men Forever (more specifically Eternity) its something which occurs every creation cycle. Its a process co-ordinated and executed by the Phoenix Force, hence Jean Grey being the key to Strangers plans. The Phoenix Force has long been given th role of creator and destroyer and X-men Forever not only supported this notion but built on it by saying that an evolved humanity replace the higher power every cycle. LT is included in that number as i have shown so that point at least is not debatable.

Youre confusing yourself however Richie. While this replacement is a part of nature, Strangers plans however were not. The Stranger sought to access the Force to bring about the end of the cycle billions of years ahead of schedule whilst using the power to protect himself during the turnover allowing him to become the supreme being. That is very much against the natural order (as stated by Eternity in my scans if you'd care to refer back) and is the reason Eternity intervened and appealed to Jean. With all that in mind your point about it not being a power struggle as opposed to a part of the natural order is somewhat moot. So somene who wields the Phoenix power as and when they please can not only initiate or end reality but also can reallocate the roles of the abstracts and LT.

Originally posted by Richrf
Does this feat show on panel the absorbing of LT? If not, it's impressive, but in comics it's fairly common to see universes being destroyed. That does not imply that LT is destroyed.

I think the impressive thing about HOTU's feat is not the ending of the universe (which let's face it isn't that rare in comics!) , but we have a straight forward depiction of LT being owned completely.

There are whatifs, and other situations where we see the will of LT being blocked, but AFAIK Thantos with HOTU is the only one where we actually see LT being totally absorbed on screen. That is impressive!

According to Eternity LT is very much affected by the process. He along with the other abstracts are not only depicted by Eternity as being at the mercy of the power should Strangers plans ever come to fruition, but their roles are usurped and re-allocated.

How impressive defeating LT is , is something that is very much in debate on these forums. LTs biggest on panel feat is to cause a star to go supernova, something he stated to be his "ultimate punishment". In support of that showing LT agreed with Adam Warlock (in Infinity Watch 1) that he didnt know how his power would stand up to just the IG which itself is just a conduit for universal forces. Korvac withstood LTs power with merely the amassed power of 6 below abstract level cosmics.

Originally posted by Richrf
Sure some speculation might sugguest that evolved humans might replace LT (I'm not sure about this point, LT seems to be a different class from Eternity and other abstracts, but let me concede the point here) , but we never see it happen, so it still remains speculation.

It would remain speculation if it wasnt stated it was going to happen. You are incorrect my friend. In a variety of scenes from the mini LT and the abstracts are depicted on panel as the beings affected by the process. On top of that all of the gathered beings are listed in the back of the comic, something ive also produced a scan of. LTs name is listed. It is not speculation im afraid.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but it is an IDEA, an idea that has been denied n proven wrong many times, the thing is, the whenever toaa has been hinted etc, it was not denied, n since there are only one or two such instances there is almost no ambiguity, nor contradictions by any other comic, TOAA is an idea, a good idea, but an idea nonetheless, UR version of the pheonix force however is flawed, manipulated n proven wrong, n almost never right. TOAA has neither been proven. NOR been disproven, but there is more reason to believe he is there as opposed to him not beeing there n for clarity's sake we do, there are no such arguments for ur pheonix.

Rubbish Leon!! My ideas have been disproven? By whom might i ask? Certainly not yourself, that task im afraid is a tad too ambitious for you my friend.

You've disagreed with my ideas and given me your opinion why theyre wrong. You've never backed up your statements whilst now i have an official bio along with the multitude of scans ive produced over the months. Opinion in the face of that is inconsequential. Sorry mate. 🙁

TOAA is LTs master. Its a being stated to be beyond the IG. Thats all we know of it. Its ludicrous to assume its the supreme being based on just that. Such an idea is unsupported and as such certainly cant be treated as canon in debates.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rubbish Leon!! My ideas have been disproven? By whom might i ask? Certainly not yourself, that task im afraid is a tad too ambitious for you my friend.

You've disagreed with my ideas and given me your opinion why theyre wrong. You've never backed up your statements whilst now i have an official bio along with the multitude of scans ive produced over the months. Opinion in the face of that is inconsequential. Sorry mate. 🙁

TOAA is LTs master. Its a being stated to be beyond the IG. Thats all we know of it. Its ludicrous to assume its the supreme being based on just that. Such an idea is unsupported and as such certainly cant be treated as canon in debates.

on other words your trying to say that currently pheonix force is the only thing that deserves or can be REASONABLY put on the pedestal of thes supreme being as u think that no1 in marvel has shown to be more power than it.{THIS is exctly why i hate debating with you, your more stubborn than gandhi, n twisting facts and manipulating oppinion is your quakity}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
on other words your trying to say that currently pheonix force is the only thing that deserves or can be REASONABLY put on the pedestal of thes supreme being as u think that no1 in marvel has shown to be more power than it.{THIS is exctly why i hate debating with you, your more stubborn than gandhi, n twisting facts and manipulating oppinion is your quakity}

Thats not what ive been saying at all. Not once in this thread have i tried to present Phoenix as the the supreme being of Marvel. Thats just a misinterpretation on your part and is therefore your problem. I have merely shown why Phoenix is beyond LT whilst also dismissing the notion that TOAA, LTs boss is the supreme being. Why? Because its not stated or supported anywhere. 😉

lmao, exactly WHAT does that scan show or prove?! i see absolutely NUTHING that tells of lucifer's rebellion being the presence's plan or of the presence having power over lucifer{creation as seen does not guaruntee power OVER} it only tells of sameal's rebellion as a way of letting lucifer reflect on his actions, and in the end even the voice ADMITS that it foresaw everythin in sameal's rebellion untill THEN, which mean that the presence is NOT infalliable{n if i hadnt addressed this riduculous scan of urs due to bein tired of tryin to cinvince, u wudv easily manipulated it to PROVE to people that it inded does prove that the presence owns lucifer and everythin he does or creates}