Marka Ragnos versus NJO Luke, DE Sidious and Exar Kun

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. And after. all your following points were invented by the timethe Dark Side sourcebook and the NEC was....and considering Sidious was already draining planets of the force and stated to know all known, previously existing, discovered formerly unknown and created new techniques....that covers it. Force storms remain as the strongest weapon of a Dark Lord. They have always been written as such

Again...what the hell ?
The things I've mentioned come from TOTJ, KotoR and KotoR 2. Yeah...nothing else is mentioned as "the most powerful weapon" a Sith can have but every person with a little bit of brain between his / her ears will say that draining the life force from an entire planet killing all inhabitants including a huge number of Jedi would be more powerful than the "force storm" thing.
And Sidious drained one planet and he didn't drain it that much that all people - including Jedi Masters - instantly died. And those can be used only if people WILLFULLY let it use on them.

2. Who was responsible for all of it? Sidious.

Can Tarkin defeat all inhabitants of Alderaan at once in a fist fight because he was responsible for the destruction of the planet via the Death Star ? Cut off that feat wars.

3. And history's shown that any Sith COULD? Seriously, history has shown the Sith are always beatewn and considering thanks to his order, Sidious had only one other Sith to work with...

Beaten by what ? Betrayal ! Sadow...beaten by betrayal of Gav. Revan beaten by betrayal of Malak. Malak beaten by Revan's return. Really...what do you want ? Sidious BEATEN by betrayal of Vader.

The only difference between Sidious and all other people is that he was betrayed after he had gained control over the Republic and therefor a great part of the Galaxy. Revan could easily have done that.

4. Proof. We've seen Sidious become a pure avatar of the dark side against Luke's pure avatar of the Light side. We have no idea how the entire academy would measure up to Luke. Ragnos himself works against you here. We also know Ragnos still had his sceptre. And that 5000 year old spirit had a body with all his knowledge of the force.

Where did you get that "avatar" thing from. Do you know what an "avatar" is ? And how the entire Academy would measure up to Luke. I guess the Solo children would be quite strong having Skywalker blood in them. Kyp had proven himself to be quite gifted with force potential. We know what Kyle Katarn did and we have tons of information about the other people. Still....Luke at this time would be more powerful than in DE times and the other people would just add massively to that amount of power (especially Jacen and Jaina).

5. You mean when 2,000 years later, when a new golden age was failed to come around, because of Kun and then a new Golden age DID come around thanks to Darth Ruin?

You again failed to realize that YOU are the only person using the term "golden age" for the BoD. You made it up like half of your so called "arguments". Have the people of the BoD displayed any reasonable use of Sith magic, alchemy or have lived in a kind of Sith culture ? No ? So...you can dig another grave for that "BoD = another Golden Age of the Sith" statement.

1. And after. all your following points were invented by the timethe Dark Side sourcebook and the NEC was....and considering Sidious was already draining planets of the force and stated to know all known, previously existing, discovered formerly unknown and created new techniques....that covers it. Force storms remain as the strongest weapon of a Dark Lord. They have always been written as such

Sidious' drain was not on the scale of Nihilus. Nothing is.

There is no force user, outside of Exile, who can stand up to Nihilus. That was his design. He could only be beaten by the Exile.

Also, the DS sourcebook and NEC does not declare Sidious or Luke as the most powerful force user.

2. Who was responsible for all of it? Sidious.

So it means that he has the personal capabilities to march into the Temples and kill everything and everyone? That he can walk into the Council and eliminate all of them?

No, he orchestrated it, just like Hitler orchastrated the downfall of the Weinmar Republic, but he was not, by any means, capable of doing the thing without any help.

3. And history's shown that any Sith COULD? Seriously, history has shown the Sith are always beatewn and considering thanks to his order, Sidious had only one other Sith to work with...

This says nothing to Sidious' personal power, which is what we are measuring in a versus thread.

4. Proof. We've seen Sidious become a pure avatar of the dark side against Luke's pure avatar of the Light side. We have no idea how the entire academy would measure up to Luke. Ragnos himself works against you here. We also know Ragnos still had his sceptre. And that 5000 year old spirit had a body with all his knowledge of the force.

It doesn't matter how they measure up to Luke, because that's not the point. He would go along. He said we need to gather "our full strength" to "try" to stop him if he comes along.

We also know Ragnos still had his sceptre. And that 5000 year old spirit had a body with all his knowledge of the force.

Can you prove the circumstances of that fight? JK:JO had Kyle crushing Desann under a pillar. For all you know, Tavion could have suffered a massive stroke and died during battle, the circumstances are unclear.

(Not saying the above is likely, just that it's entirely possible without knowing anything).

The 5000 year old spirit was also entirely intangible. It never existed outside of a body. As mentioned by Corran, spirits are typically unable to mess with the living. The fact that he was able to entirely fuse with another being and take control of that body is already impressive.

Besides, are you arguing that Tavion's body would not have limitations? When have we ever seen anyone use another person's body effectively?

Try nowhere.

Assumedly, force attacks with an inferior body would be weaker and let's not even get into the details of physical capability.

5. You mean when 2,000 years later, when a new golden age was failed to come around, because of Kun and then a new Golden age DID come around thanks to Darth Ruin?

When is it ever stated that the Brotherhood brought about a Golden Age of the Sith?

The Golden Age of the Sith sites Marka's reign as the zenith of Sith power: Sith Alchemy, Sith Magic, Dark Side dominance. It's not the zenith if there's two of them or if there's one higher.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Again...what the hell ?
The things I've mentioned come from TOTJ, KotoR and KotoR 2. Yeah...nothing else is mentioned as "the most powerful weapon" a Sith can have but every person with a little bit of brain between his / her ears will say that draining the life force from an entire planet killing all inhabitants including a huge number of Jedi would be more powerful than the "force storm" thing.
And Sidious drained [b]one planet and he didn't drain it that much that all people - including Jedi Masters - instantly died. And those can be used only if people WILLFULLY let it use on them.

Can Tarkin defeat all inhabitants of Alderaan at once in a fist fight because he was responsible for the destruction of the planet via the Death Star ? Cut off that feat wars.

Beaten by what ? Betrayal ! Sadow...beaten by betrayal of Gav. Revan beaten by betrayal of Malak. Malak beaten by Revan's return. Really...what do you want ? Sidious BEATEN by betrayal of Vader.

The only difference between Sidious and all other people is that he was betrayed after he had gained control over the Republic and therefor a great part of the Galaxy. Revan could easily have done that.

Where did you get that "avatar" thing from. Do you know what an "avatar" is ? And how the entire Academy would measure up to Luke. I guess the Solo children would be quite strong having Skywalker blood in them. Kyp had proven himself to be quite gifted with force potential. We know what Kyle Katarn did and we have tons of information about the other people. Still....Luke at this time would be more powerful than in DE times and the other people would just add massively to that amount of power (especially Jacen and Jaina).

You again failed to realize that YOU are the only person using the term "golden age" for the BoD. You made it up like half of your so called "arguments". Have the people of the BoD displayed any reasonable use of Sith magic, alchemy or have lived in a kind of Sith culture ? No ? So...you can dig another grave for that "BoD = another Golden Age of the Sith" statement. [/B]

1. How about draining a planet and its people in a controlled manner? Palp did that on Byss. And he didn't 'drain it that much' because he kept it as his personal feeding ground. And Nihilius drained more than Katarr?

2. Did Tarkin do anything with the Force? Do we see Sidious wipe out a fleet with the force, so logically speaking, he could fight them with the Force and win.

3. An avatar: Physical manifestation? And read TUF, yeah, Jacen really has some things going for him. I've posted the thing with Palp vs. Luke again and again...

4. Let's look at this logically: What would be the Golden Age? One hundred years under Ragnos without expansion, or one thousand years ruling the galaxy with an iron fist? And we saw Bane deforest a world...in fairness, we haven't seen MUCH of the BoD except Bane.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Sidious' drain was not on the scale of Nihilus. Nothing is.

There is no force user, outside of Exile, who can stand up to Nihilus. That was his design. He could only be beaten by the Exile.

Also, the DS sourcebook and NEC does [b]not declare Sidious or Luke as the most powerful force user.

So it means that he has the personal capabilities to march into the Temples and kill everything and everyone? That he can walk into the Council and eliminate all of them?

No, he orchestrated it, just like Hitler orchastrated the downfall of the Weinmar Republic, but he was not, by any means, capable of doing the thing without any help.

This says nothing to Sidious' personal power, which is what we are measuring in a versus thread.

It doesn't matter how they measure up to Luke, because that's not the point. He would go along. He said we need to gather "our full strength" to "try" to stop him if he comes along.

Can you prove the circumstances of that fight? JK:JO had Kyle crushing Desann under a pillar. For all you know, Tavion could have suffered a massive stroke and died during battle, the circumstances are unclear.

(Not saying the above is likely, just that it's entirely possible without knowing anything).

The 5000 year old spirit was also entirely intangible. It never existed outside of a body. As mentioned by Corran, spirits are typically unable to mess with the living. The fact that he was able to entirely fuse with another being and take control of that body is already impressive.

Besides, are you arguing that Tavion's body would not have limitations? When have we ever seen anyone use another person's body effectively?

Try nowhere.

Assumedly, force attacks with an inferior body would be weaker and let's not even get into the details of physical capability.

When is it ever stated that the Brotherhood brought about a Golden Age of the Sith?

The Golden Age of the Sith sites Marka's reign as the zenith of Sith power: Sith Alchemy, Sith Magic, Dark Side dominance. It's not the zenith if there's two of them or if there's one higher. [/B]

1. Sidious took the force energy of Byss and the lvies of billions to sustain himself. May not be up to Nihilius, but considering Nihilius's...unusual nature, what Sidious did is freaking impressive.

2. It calls Palpatine the 'Strongest force of Darkness the galaxy had ever known.' And Luke the exact opposite...

3. That's true and I never doubted that at all. However, I doubt any Sith had it in him to walk into the Jedi temple and not instantly get completely owned...Sidious did the smart thing, I think we can all agree on that.

4. I know it's not relevant, I'm defending some of his competence and why he didn't lead 'Sith legions'.

5. Luke said the same thing about Hethrir, the Yuuzhan Vong, Sidious in DE, among others....Hell, he even said he'd give his all to 'try' to stop Brakiss and Kueller...

6. And how about that scepter? Ragnos actually using it himself in flesh....we know spirits have used bodies to fight very effectively before. And when was Desann crushed? We just see his hand twitch a few times.

I'll grant you this...Desann and Tavion were Hethrir's servants...that is a new low.

7. My point is: The zenith of Sith power and the Golden Age applied to the empire Ragnos ruled...the Dark Side didn't dominate, the Sith had a small, isolated empire that died upon expansion. When Ragnos died it went to hell...the BoD ruled the GALAXY for 1000 years, minus the core worlds..

Btw, for a bit over the next few days, my online time'll be limited. Just letting you know. Got a play and some other things coming up

1. Sidious took the force energy of Byss and the lvies of billions to sustain himself. May not be up to Nihilius, but considering Nihilius's...unusual nature, what Sidious did is freaking impressive.

As is Tavion -- a relative weakling -- draining force from a variety of planets and then using the force to literally imbue otherwise non-force sensitive individuals with force powers. But again, is he going to drain a planet in the middle of a fight?

2. It calls Palpatine the 'Strongest force of Darkness the galaxy had ever known.' And Luke the exact opposite...

Well yes, thematically it was the strongest force of darkness and light. That hardly seems to indicate that Palpatine can beat the crap out of anyone with a saber. Like I always conceded, Palpatine accomplished the most and was the most influential in galactic affairs, but it never mentions him being superior in a combat situation to other individuals.

5. Luke said the same thing about Hethrir, the Yuuzhan Vong, Sidious in DE, among others....Hell, he even said he'd give his all to 'try' to stop Brakiss and Kueller...

Considering Hethrir coincided with Sidious, I'm not surprised. Didn't you just argue that Sidious had an Order? The cutscene quote is "we would need our full strength to try to stop him."

That's definitive. And just to prove his point, he sends all the Jedi over to Korriban. We only know of one other instance where we could argue that was the case.

6. And how about that scepter? Ragnos actually using it himself in flesh....we know spirits have used bodies to fight very effectively before. And when was Desann crushed? We just see his hand twitch a few times.

Desann's body was underneath a pillar when the camera pans back momentarily as Kyle walks out of the temple.

Who do we see fighting extremely effective in bodies whom were already beaten? You seem to forget that you beat Tavion first, then she sticks it into the sarcophagus, summons Ragnos with the rest of the energy in the scepter. After Ragnos possesses her, she pulls out the sword from the end of the scepter, and tosses it aside. Tavion with Ragnos' spirit never had an opportunity to use the scepter.

I'll grant you this...Desann and Tavion were Hethrir's servants...that is a new low.

And as low as that is, Desann did beat Luke and put him under a pile of rubble. You see a similar thing happen in the DS ending of JK:A, if you beat Katarn in that ending, you put him under a pile of rubble. They both got up, but that's irrelevant to the point, they clearly were "beaten." In fact, in that same game, JK:JO, a cutscene has Luke telling Kyle that neither of them should take Desann alone.

7. My point is: The zenith of Sith power and the Golden Age applied to the empire Ragnos ruled...the Dark Side didn't dominate, the Sith had a small, isolated empire that died upon expansion. When Ragnos died it went to hell...the BoD ruled the GALAXY for 1000 years, minus the core worlds..

It didn't say that. The Sith Empire in GAotS had hundreds of worlds and wealth they couldn't use up. The introduction even said that the Sith "ruled the galaxy," partially because no one power in the galaxy was truly an intergalactic power. The republic was still expanding by people spinning random numbers to hyperspace to.

Originally posted by Illustrious
As is Tavion -- a relative weakling -- draining force from a variety of planets and then using the force to literally imbue otherwise non-force sensitive individuals with force powers. But again, is he going to drain a planet in the middle of a fight?

Well yes, thematically it was the strongest force of darkness and light. That hardly seems to indicate that Palpatine can beat the crap out of anyone with a saber. Like I always conceded, Palpatine accomplished the most and was the most influential in galactic affairs, but it never mentions him being superior in a combat situation to other individuals.

Considering Hethrir coincided with Sidious, I'm not surprised. Didn't you just argue that Sidious had an Order? The cutscene quote is "we would need our full strength to try to stop him."

That's definitive. And just to prove his point, he sends all the Jedi over to Korriban. We only know of one other instance where we could argue that was the case.

Desann's body was underneath a pillar when the camera pans back momentarily as Kyle walks out of the temple.

Who do we see fighting extremely effective in bodies whom were already beaten? You seem to forget that you [b]beat Tavion first, then she sticks it into the sarcophagus, summons Ragnos with the rest of the energy in the scepter. After Ragnos possesses her, she pulls out the sword from the end of the scepter, and tosses it aside. Tavion with Ragnos' spirit never had an opportunity to use the scepter.

And as low as that is, Desann did beat Luke and put him under a pile of rubble. You see a similar thing happen in the DS ending of JK:A, if you beat Katarn in that ending, you put him under a pile of rubble. They both got up, but that's irrelevant to the point, they clearly were "beaten." In fact, in that same game, JK:JO, a cutscene has Luke telling Kyle that neither of them should take Desann alone.

It didn't say that. The Sith Empire in GAotS had hundreds of worlds and wealth they couldn't use up. The introduction even said that the Sith "ruled the galaxy," partially because no one power in the galaxy was truly an intergalactic power. The republic was still expanding by people spinning random numbers to hyperspace to. [/B]

1. Could he drain his opponent in the fight? And tavionw as using something tha tbelonged to Ragnos, something that we have no idea of origin. We know Sith presented gifts to their lords and loyal members of the Sith did the same...Garu and Tritos Nal for example.

2. I never climed he was an ultimate saber fighter, either, however, he's got credentials.

3. Like I said, he said that about Hethrir, a good....well, a good while after Sidious, four years or so....

4. You sure about that? Don't we just see the body and twitching hand?

5. I'll replay Jedi Academy, my apologies, it's eben....years.

6. Luke never fights his ex-stufents seriously. Desann couldn't beat him if he did....Luke crushed Brakiss before.

7. I'll find stuff on the BoD later...it may be a little sparse though...but hundreds of world? Any proof therre?

"Darth Revan achieved more than Sidious. At least he almost conquered it."

Conquering never worked for the Sith. Sidious, being far more intelligent, cooked up the cleanest and by far the most effective method to control the Galaxy. If Revan wanted the Galaxy, he had the ideal time to take over during the Mandalorians wars. Instead, like a typical Sith dumbass, he makes this bigass army that's completly dependant on a single factory and tries to take the Republic straight up.

Originally posted by Hello Friend
"Darth Revan achieved more than Sidious. At least he almost conquered it."

Conquering never worked for the Sith. Sidious, being far more intelligent, cooked up the cleanest and by far the most effective method to control the Galaxy. If Revan wanted the Galaxy, he had the ideal time to take over during the Mandalorians wars. Instead, like a typical Sith dumbass, he makes this bigass army that's completly dependant on a single factory and tries to take the Republic straight up.

Lol 😛 , I take it you've never played KotOR II or payed attention to it. Firstly, he was still a Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars. Secondly, Revan realised that the Star Forge was a corrupting influence and not to be trusted, hence why he spent so much time leaving the infrastructure of planets intact.

And take the Republic up straight? Yeah, what's wrong with that? He was a strategic genius.

Sidious was arguably the best politician in the history of the Sith, I'm trying to make the fanboys that keep on saying "OMFG Cideus PWNED the order and teh gLAXY!" shut up. Sidious took over the galaxy through political machination, not through conquering it.

And there's something wrong with that? We're supposed to shut up about Sidious actually taking the galaxy and destroying the Jedi order? This is a bad thing when every last Sith Lord who attempted conquest lost horriby?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And there's something wrong with that? We're supposed to shut up about Sidious actually taking the galaxy and destroying the Jedi order? This is a bad thing when every last Sith Lord who attempted conquest lost horriby?

When did we say that? Don't get defensive.

But YOUR are ignoring that Sidious did this POLITICALLY, and it does not indicate he is a lightsaber or force god.

The team. They're ridiculously powerful alone, but together they're probably invincible.

except for a thought-bomb and various other ridiculuosly uber feats.

And he's done ample enough to prove himself a force god, is my point

Btw, Illustrious: I'm stuck on a locked school computer and can't access every topic....can you tell Nai and IKC that it's blocking the other debates?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And he's done ample enough to prove himself a force god, is my point

Oh yeah ? What has he done ? Let's see...

- some Telekinesis: this has been reproduced by nearly every Jedi / Sith
- some Illusions: reproduced, used in greater extend by Sadow
- some force lightning: reproduced by Dooku, not able to overwhelm Mace Windu's defence with it
- some Battle Meditation (Endor): reproduced by several others including Bastilla a Padawan
- some speed burst: reproduced by others including Obi-Wan in TPM (another Padawan)
- some drain of lifepower (Byss): reproduced by Nihilus who did use it to a greater extend, reproduced by the Exile
- some force storm: reproduced by Darth Bane on Ruusan according to some sourcebook / chronologies

Lightsaber skill: Not able to defeat Mace Windu or Yoda with it. Got defeated in a lightsaber fight by the relative untrained Luke Skywalker in DE.

Conclusion:
Sidious has not a single ability which is unique to him in contrary to the ancient Sith Lords. He has never displayed any noticeable knowledge in terms of Sith Alchemy or Sith Magic, nor has he shown any mastery in terms of lightsaber combat. So...he's the first one that goes down in this fight.

Btw, Illustrious: I'm stuck on a locked school computer and can't access every topic....can you tell Nai and IKC that it's blocking the other debates?

Thank you. I can read your poor excuses myself. It's nice how a computer gives you access to this forum, enables you to read certain topics but totally blocks your access to others.

Thank you. I can read your poor excuses myself. It's nice how a computer gives you access to this forum, enables you to read certain topics but totally blocks your access to others.

Indeed, threads in which he is losing badly. But I'm patient.

lol

Nice analysis, Nai. I expect to see : "But teh cideus uses teh anshunt derk pwours of teh anshunt sithz bettur then tehy do!!!11"

I fail to see how hundreds of years is inferior to a couple decades.

Must be the same reason why only high school level science can solve the mystery of Sidious' force potential/calorie intake.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Must be the same reason why only high school level science can solve the mystery of Sidious' force potential/calorie intake.

Indeed.

Star Wars is apparently infected with the formerly Japanese-enclusive child prodigy pwns all disorder.