Manwe Vs Melkor

Although if both in physical form one could slay the others physical form, whilst the spirit wouldn't die then it would have at least been a Victory per se. Didn't Tulkas fight with Melkor before he took the Simarils "whilst the earth was still young" why fight if it would lead nowhere the physical form can be slain even if they were to take a new physical form.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/morgoth.html
That just shows the translation of the name Morgoth and yes it sounds sligtly racist but I think Tolkien means it more in respect of Black and White, Negative and Positive, Cats and Dogs and so forth rather than actual colouration of said beings.

Yes It would be a little victory, but the thread started as a fight to the bitter end.

And yes tulkas fought melkor and chained him with aules chain...

Well "mor" as in morgoth, morgul, moraquendi and so on means dark. Thats why I said so, and as you know I don't quite trust EoA.

And I don't know too much about shape-shifting in LOTR but I know they can change pretty much when ever they liked, for example saurons fight with huam the dog. So they should be able to get a new physical form when the old one is "dead". but I'm only guessing.

Well then please allow to me point out another site
http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/morgoth.asp

And in fact a direct quote from the Silmarillion, Chapter 9 "Of The Flight Of The Noldor" page 79, 22 lines down to be exact in my version and I quote

"The Feanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwe he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth , the Black Foe of the World ; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after"

maybe so.. I only have the Swedish version, but you're leaving the subject.

Well I've pretty much stated my point and side of the argument and whilst what I posed was somewhat of a tangent it is not totally off topic. However just to reiterate that if they faught Melkor would at least destroy Manwe's physical form at the time. Whilst this is only my opinion it seems the evidence suggested by the text points to this.

Originally posted by vanice
Yes It would be a little victory, but the thread started as a fight to the bitter end.

And yes tulkas fought melkor and chained him with aules chain...

Well "mor" as in morgoth, morgul, moraquendi and so on means dark. Thats why I said so, and as you know I don't quite trust EoA.

And I don't know too much about shape-shifting in LOTR but I know they can change pretty much when ever they liked, for example saurons fight with huam the dog. So they should be able to get a new physical form when the old one is "dead". but I'm only guessing.

Morgoth couldn't take a new form for he was cursed to remain in the form he was in; as the towering giant. Same as the Balrogs. Sauron could shape shift until around the time he forged the One Ring then he couldn't either.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Morgoth couldn't take a new form for he was cursed to remain in the form he was in; as the towering giant. Same as the Balrogs. Sauron could shape shift until around the time he forged the One Ring then he couldn't either.

but It's melkor, not morgoth. read before you say anything. 😠

Melkor and Morgoth are one and the same, the only difference is what name they were known by and the period of time it was. Even if we assume/know that they could take different physical forms after their first, second, third, fourth, seventy-fifth form was slain in a battle between the two who would slay who first Melkor would slay Manwe.

If we mean who would kill whos spirit it wouldn't happen that fate won't be fought until the Dagor Dagorath where Turin shall slay Melkor/Morgoth upon the Black Blade so looking at it from that point of view this is all irreleavant and we can all go back to the land of puppy dogs and rainbows if thats the case.

Originally posted by vanice
but It's melkor, not morgoth. read before you say anything. 😠

And Morgoth is Melkor. You seem to not be able to understand that. Melkor and Morgoth are the same person. Melkor has never shown the ability to take a different form when he came to Middle-Earth and neither have the Balrogs.

Know what you are talking about before you say anything.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
And Morgoth is Melkor. You seem to not be able to understand that. Melkor and Morgoth are the same person. Melkor has never shown the ability to take a different form when he came to Middle-Earth and neither have the Balrogs.

Know what you are talking about before you say anything.

I know he is the same person. what I'm trying to say is melkor (morgoth), if you so hardly wish to call him that, lost many of his abilities after locking himself up in angband. when you said he couldn't change that was after he had "the peak of his power". when I said melkor not morgoth I meant that he had his peak when they called him melkor nor morgoth. and the thread says melkor, so I think he meant melkor when they called him that. He obvoiusly took a physical form, in arda after the music of ainur. sauron a maia changed shapes many times, he was morgoths "apprentice". the valar was of higher rang, they could do more then the maia.

and what the h*ll has the balrogs to do with any of this? If you're referring to the statement that the balrogs are maia, well then there is only one thing I can say... YOU HAVE NO PROOF!!!

could you at least read what the thread's all about before you start arguing...

I think the Balrog point was put in as a comparison, a common used thing in debating to reference other parties to help illustrate a point now if perhaps we could all calm down and stop biting at each others ankles before this thread ceases to be a lore discussion and falls to be a petty squabble. As for proof Balrogs were Maiar as you asked for it then might I quote. The Silmarillion Valaquenta, of the Maiar and of the Enemies

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that alleigance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and trecherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror"

Whilst they, and Melkor may have been able to change their physical form at will, as Sauron demonstrated so well. Saurons physical form was still able to be slain I see no reason why it would not the the same with Melkor or Manwe. I guess the next logical progression would be would the body be weaker upon the remaking, would some of the inherent power have been lost?

Originally posted by thefallen544
I think the Balrog point was put in as a comparison, a common used thing in debating to reference other parties to help illustrate a point now if perhaps we could all calm down and stop biting at each others ankles before this thread ceases to be a lore discussion and falls to be a petty squabble. As for proof Balrogs were Maiar as you asked for it then might I quote. The Silmarillion Valaquenta, of the Maiar and of the Enemies

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that alleigance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and trecherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror"

Whilst they, and Melkor may have been able to change their physical form at will, as Sauron demonstrated so well. Saurons physical form was still able to be slain I see no reason why it would not the the same with Melkor or Manwe. I guess the next logical progression would be would the body be weaker upon the remaking, would some of the inherent power have been lost?

well it's all true that it was melkor who drew the valaraukar to his service, but it doesn't say they are maiar. at least mine doesn't 😕. it only says that others were drawn to melkor... among them the balrogs and Gorthaur-sauron.
It could be a translations miss, but a BIG one if that's the case.
neither does any of the appendixes as I can find say that valaraukar are maia. but this certainty is to leave the subject. might I suggest that we start a new thread where we try to find proof of this statement.

so if we're to return to the subject... I found it impossible to follow the "rules" of this fight, nobody would win then. but I am ready to follow with thefallen544's compromise, who wold slay the physical form first, if that's ok with jessie7?

I can't who would win, it's an even fight. so I'll just say manwë, to say something.

i believe the line that others were drawn to Melkor meant other Maiar not just others in general. The line has to be read within context of the passage, and I have stated that I already think Melkor would win.

According to the Silmarillion that I own:

Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among there spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.