so, what do we know:
thanos is stronger and more durable than thor. thanos below skyfather and WAY below tyrant and galactus. thanos has no strength feats that are more impressive than thor's but based on his battles i will certainly admit he is stronger, but not by any quantifiable amount, and CERTAINLY not 100x stronger. you STILL never given evidence -- nor can you -- to support such a ludicrous claim. warrior mad thor easily ko'd ss AND warlock. thanos has also beaten down ss and is afraid of warlock. thor fought drax (with gem) AND the rest of the watch to a virtual standstill BEFORE he had the gem. and there is no evidence at all warrior thor is 10x stronger than regular thor.
how again is it that thanos is 100x stronger? 😕
Response to Ol:
1. Look, if that's not "almost" grabbing it, I don't know what is. Odin is blasting him and thanos pushes through it like a gentle tide and they grabs a hold of the spear.
2. I didn't say he wasn't a skyfather outside of asgard. I said he draws power from asgard, and it only makes sense (as is true of rulers of every other dimension -- dormammu, mephisto, various pocket dimension rulers) for him to be amped up considerably in his own dimension. If nothing else, he would have a tools/turf advantage -- which is considerable, given the amount of magic/tech these types can get a hold of.
3. Odin took a thousand years prep and did not manage to damage a celestial, even with the help of numerous other skyfathers. Thanos smashed galactus into the ground and burned off his helmet with zero prep simply with a blast from his hands. Celestial < tyrant < well-fed galactus. Odin is a a powerful dude, but he doesn't do too well against cosmic entities. Thanos, on the other hand, has made a living off beating cosmic entities. How many times has Odin taken control of the universe?
4. Do you read any justice league appearances? Or ANY comics with characters with human-level durability and strength? Batman and others with approximately human-level durability (captain america, nightwing, virtually every mutant without durability powers) are constantly getting hit by people tens, hundreds, or even millions of times stronger than they are. Call all of those "bad writing" -- I call them comics, where reality's rules don't necessarily apply. (surprise!)
5. As for brb
a. He's using stormbreaker (notice how he invokes it) -- not a pure strength feat.
b. The "planet" is about 100 times taller than bill and doesn't even have a noticeable topography/atmosphere. Notice that the energy trail is only a tad bit larger than bill. Notice that the energy trail is quite large relative to the "planet." That's a tiny moon or asteroid -- not a planet. The only planet that was destroyed in that story was the one galactus ate.
6. I didn't say thanos beat galactus. I did say that was a better showing against a well-fed galactus (this is in narrative, so it's not debatable) than I have ever seen.
To leo:
For someone who keeps charging others with being "factually wrong", you sure have a knack for making things up.
1. Thanos had the orb even before the fight started. That first scan does not show thanos blasting tyrant "without the orb."
Your best case is made by the scan after he drops it. He picks it up and blasts him with it. Of course, thereafter he strangely stops using it, and starts hitting tyrant with his fists (both with the orb hand and with the non-orb hand -- no energy trail). And there is no narrative to indicate the orb is powering him. Thanos talks about the power of the orb prior to stealing it, but no indication that he ever used it, or that it had any real power. Indeed, the only thing we ever learn about the orb is AFTER that fight, when a much larger orb is revealed, along with many many other smaller orbs.
My interpretation is that this scene was supposed to indicate that that orb was a decoy, or at least insignificantly powerful (even if thanos could access the power) -- the large orb was the REAL power source. Your explanation is, apparently, that that scene was completely irrelevant and should be ignored, and that the tiny orb really did have tyrant's power.
Notably, you have still failed to explain why this orb has never appeared again in any comic, if it is such a powerful artifact. You have also failed to explain why tyrant does not seem particularly concerned about the orb when he sees that thanos has it.
In any event, you have made things up already on two occasions (that thanos did not have the orb at the start of the fight, and that tyrant "disappears" after the fight -- which is utterly laughable considering he went on to almost destroy the universe). I have made nothing up. And am getting tired of your charges of "factual error."
2. I wasn't "factually wrong" to say Thanos beat Champion. You define "beat" as KO. I think this is absurd because, for example, it leads one to the conclusion that thanos himself has never been beaten. Engaging someone in a physical battle, knocking them around, and then completely immobilizing them, is a victory in my mind. In fact, it was a much more decisive victory than most KOs, as Thanos was not even harmed in the process and barely expended any effort.
If you have a different definition of "beat" -- fine. You can define "beat" as "gave him a bouquet of roses" for all I care. But then our dispute is not about factual accuracy. It's about your odd and contorted use of the English language.
3. On your claim that 100x strength means that thanos "would not notice him": Maybe he'd notice him. Maybe he wouldn't.
I am considerably more than 100x the strength of a bug. Yet I notice them, and (i hate to admit) am a little wary of some of them. I don't particularly like cockroaches or bees, especially when they are in swarms.
Now of course, this is comic world. The world where wolverine beat lobo, where spider man beat firelord, and where batman beats everyone. Did thor and thing get a couple blows in? Yes, by double teaming him and hitting him in the back. Does that prove that thanos is approximately thor/thing's equal? No. In a direct, 1on1 confrontation, he has KO'd the thing (who has considerably more durability than strength) with a flick of his fingers. And he has wrestled and beat multiple thor-level heros on other occasions with apparent ease.
The fact that he got hit in the back a few times should not be decisive. When a roach or bee stings me in the back of my neck, it still hurts, no matter how many times I recite to myself, "I'm 1000x stronger than these bugs... they can't hurt me!!!"
4. I never said I had definitive proof Odin was powered up in Asgard. I did say it only makes sense, given that Asgard is his primary power source, and given that, IIRC, breaks in his connection to Asgard (in some Loki storylines) have weakened him in the past. As I posted previously, this is true in the marvel universe of the ruler of virtually every other dimension. When they are in their dimension, they are nearly omnipotent. Why would it be different for Odin?
5. You think the power gem, the physical manifestation of a fundamental force of the universe, and one of the ingredients to the infinity gaunlet, is weaker than an asgardian trinket? Please. Read comics where this gem appears. It invariably is said to grant "infinite power" or "unlimited strength" or something along those lines.
Drax has certainly lost with the power gem. That's how warrior madness thor got it, after all. But drax is not exaclty the most intelligent fighter in the universe. And he usually loses because he loses the gem, not because he is bested in strength. I am only faintly recalling a drax/hulk power gem fight, so you'll have to refresh my memory.
Originally posted by leonidas
never saw him fight inbetweener then, eh . . .?
You're comparing thanos to in-betweener now?
If it wasn't obvious contextually, I meant that I've never seen a better showing from a non-cosmic entity. Obviously, thanos with infinity gauntlet did better against galactus than thanos in the hunger storyline.
I've certaintly never seen a skyfather level entity do something like that to galactus. Most of them just get eaten.
This is indicative of the power level I've seen of drax with gem:
KO'ing champion with one punch
http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc89&image=02bf2_lastscan16.jpg
It's worth noting, moreover, that drax supposedly has tapped the gem in a very limited fashion, given his intellectual limitations.
Other power gem wielders have been similarly insane. Always taking on numerous thor level heros and toasting them. You think thor normal power (or with belt of strength) could dust the infinity watch, brb, and dr. strange without a scratch? please....
<<Your best case is made by the scan after he drops it. He picks it up and blasts him with it. Of course, thereafter he strangely stops using it, and starts hitting tyrant with his fists (both with the orb hand and with the non-orb hand -- no energy trail). And there is no narrative to indicate the orb is powering him. Thanos talks about the power of the orb prior to stealing it, but no indication that he ever used it, or that it had any real power. Indeed, the only thing we ever learn about the orb is AFTER that fight, when a much larger orb is revealed, along with many many other smaller orbs. >>
1. you're correct about one thing: thanos DID have it at the start. but he never employed it before then. unless you're saying the there was no difference between the blast he first shot and the one he fired through the orb . . . and i'll stick to my interpretation that he was drawing power from the orb to fight tyrant. there were thousands of orbs at the end. ALL decoys?? amid all his machines?? silly. they were places to store power. he siphoned power from ss and glads et al in the previous (prior?) ss arc. if he did come back, i'm curious: which arc was it in? and of course he wouldn't have cared that thanos had the orb -- he had thousands, some apparently much larger. thanos was clearly no threat to him.
at the end of that ltd arc, the ss arc, it is said he is biding his time and gathering his power. seems reasonable to think he is busy collecting all the power he can for a confrontation with galactus. that's why he saves the orb/s and doesn't use them -- doesn't want to squander them. as for it being a 'powerful artifact': it wasn't -- that was the point, not relative to tyrant and the other orbs he has. but it DID boost thanos's powers, certainly magnifying his blast. if it could do THAT, why wouldn't it be able to augment his strength?
2. define beat however you like. ask anyone on the forum, they will use 'beat' in the forum context -- battlefield removal or KO. he tricked champ. fine in a comic, but not in this forum. he did it through brains, not power. the whole showing is irrelevent anyway unless you care to say that thanos could have beat him/ko'd him in a straight up h2h fight.
<<Now of course, this is comic world. The world where wolverine beat lobo, where spider man beat firelord, and where batman beats everyone. Did thor and thing get a couple blows in? Yes, by double teaming him and hitting him in the back. Does that prove that thanos is approximately thor/thing's equal? No. In a direct, 1on1 confrontation, he has KO'd the thing (who has considerably more durability than strength) with a flick of his fingers. And he has wrestled and beat multiple thor-level heros on other occasions with apparent ease.
The fact that he got hit in the back a few times should not be decisive. When a roach or bee stings me in the back of my neck, it still hurts, no matter how many times I recite to myself, "I'm 1000x stronger than these bugs... they can't hurt me!!!">>
we've a name for the events you mentioned: PIS. no PIS in this forum. here if supes hits bats he's splattered. and stop with the bug stuff, you're weirding me out . . .
<<5. You think the power gem, the physical manifestation of a fundamental force of the universe, and one of the ingredients to the infinity gaunlet, is weaker than an asgardian trinket? Please. Read comics where this gem appears. It invariably is said to grant "infinite power" or "unlimited strength" or something along those lines.
Drax has certainly lost with the power gem. That's how warrior madness thor got it, after all. But drax is not exaclty the most intelligent fighter in the universe. And he usually loses because he loses the gem, not because he is bested in strength. I am only faintly recalling a drax/hulk power gem fight, so you'll have to refresh my memory.>>
doesn't matter what is said, but what is shown. odin is said many times to be all-powerful. hulk is the strongest one there is. infinity has scales. based on feats, you can absolutely compare the belt with the gem. by your logic, it appears no one with the gem is ever able to access it's 'infinite' power because its wielders are defeated. so how good is it? better than the belt? maybe, but not definitively so. if thor doubled his strength he'd certainly be able to go h2h with thanos.
<<You're comparing thanos to in-betweener now?
If it wasn't obvious contextually, I meant that I've never seen a better showing from a non-cosmic entity. Obviously, thanos with infinity gauntlet did better against galactus than thanos in the hunger storyline.
I've certaintly never seen a skyfather level entity do something like that to galactus. Most of them just get eaten.>>
that's fine. but where have you actually seen a skyfather entity battle galactus?? many LESS than skyfather have beaten or chased him off.
Originally posted by slade10
This is indicative of the power level I've seen of drax with gem:KO'ing champion with one punch
http://www.comicboards.com/comicbattles/attachments/040917210140/lastscan16.jpgIt's worth noting, moreover, that drax supposedly has tapped the gem in a very limited fashion, given his intellectual limitations.
Other power gem wielders have been similarly insane. Always taking on numerous thor level heros and toasting them. You think thor normal power could dust the infinity watch, brb, and dr. strange without a scratch? Or thor with the belt of strength? please....
that's a good showing for the gem, no doubt. i'd chalk that up to PIS, personally, as have many others on the forum. ss had just gone all out on champ and not hurt him, but drax one punches him? frankly i think it was meant for comedic value, but i can't dispute the scene. then again, thing broke his ribs when he didn't have the gem, and shehulk beat the holy crap out of champ when he didn't have the gem, so maybe it's NOT that great a showing after all . . .
could normal thor beat the watch? probably not, but then warrior mad thor IS regular thor gone berserk. he doesn't draw additional power. it's STILL thor. like wolvie gone nuts. thor just generally keeps the berserker in him in check. he CAN let it out, as he was ready to do in the hulk battle where he thought hulk was maestro. so in THAT sense, he could beat them, but he'd have to go nuts to do it. regular thor scared the beejeezus out of warlock. he'd take a few down with him before he went. reg thor w/belt? that would be interesting. i'd give it to thor. herc beat down warlock and beat maxam. thor with 2x strength would easily do so. gamora wouldn't do much so it would be thor and drax. that might be interesting, but edge to thor because drax is a moron.
he'd certainly wipe out bill with the belt.
How do you know he didn't have the orb in that first pic? You can't see his other hand; and the blast blocks his shooting hand.
In any event, I don't see how that helps you. For one, it shows that you made something up. (Despite the fact that you're charging ME with fabrications) For another, if using his off hand means that thanos is not using the orb, then that clearly proves that this punch, the most powerful blow tyrant took arguably in the entire storyline (including fights against galactu), was on thanos' own power.
There's no orb in this punch:
http://img194.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img194&image=tyrant78hy.jpg
The fact is, when someone gets a boost from an unknown item, it's usually discussed SOMEWHERE in words. Tyrant talks about thanos "pilfering" at the end of their fight, but otherwise, there's no discussion of this orb at all. Thanos clearly wants it, and tyrant is clearly annoyed that tyrant has it. But no discussion of power amp. Not even any energy radiating or physical changes in thanos' apperance. And tyrant does not seem to really care at the start of the fight, or at the end of the fight, that thanos has the orb.
He DOES shoot something through the orb. But this is thanos. He can shoot cosmic energy through anything. ANd even if you think that blast comes from the orb, shooting energy with a device does not mean it amps your physical strength. The ultimate nullifier did not give morg the power to destroy the univesre with a punch.
It's also worth pointing out that thanos is not seriously hurt AT ALL in this fight UNTIL he picks the orb back up. This nonsense about healing with the orb actually has things backward.
THIS is the artifact that boosted thanos to fight a galaxy-destroyer?
Originally posted by leonidas
that's a good showing for the gem, no doubt. i'd chalk that up to PIS, personally, as have many others on the forum. ss had just gone all out on champ and not hurt him, but drax one punches him? frankly i think it was meant for comedic value, but i can't dispute the scene. then again, thing broke his ribs when he didn't have the gem, and shehulk beat the holy crap out of champ when he didn't have the gem, so maybe it's NOT that great a showing after all . . .could normal thor beat the watch? probably not, but then warrior mad thor IS regular thor gone berserk. he doesn't draw additional power. it's STILL thor. like wolvie gone nuts. thor just generally keeps the berserker in him in check. he CAN let it out, as he was ready to do in the hulk battle where he thought hulk was maestro. so in THAT sense, he could beat them, but he'd have to go nuts to do it. regular thor scared the beejeezus out of warlock. he'd take a few down with him before he went. reg thor w/belt? that would be interesting. i'd give it to thor. herc beat down warlock and beat maxam. thor with 2x strength would easily do so. gamora wouldn't do much so it would be thor and drax. that might be interesting, but edge to thor because drax is a moron.
he'd certainly wipe out bill with the belt.
IIRC, champ was weakend vs she-hulk. That's why he could pound beta ray bill, surfer, etc and lose to her.
No mention of that in the drax pic, afaik. (though i only have taht one pic)
I don't remember the vs thing example. In any event, that works against you. If champ is losing to she-hulk and getting hurt by thing without the power gem, what does that tell you about the gem?
Btw, does anyone have the scan where it's stated in a bubble that warrior madness thor is at least 10x stronger than normal thor? It was either a narrator bubble or a comment by an authoritative source, iirc.
Edit: wait, you think thor with the belt of strength could take out the infinity watch, brb, and strange? that's crazy, man... thor had trouble with kurse with the belt. strength is not all that. Strange could one-shot thor without the power gem...
kurse was beating thor down. he got the belt and started beating down kurse. then the beyonder amped his strength even MORE. that's why kurse beat him down.
the thing example is fine. earlier in the book champ throttles everyone at once (hulk, thor, thing, colossus, namor, wonderman) with just his OWN power! the same version that drax ko'd with one shot. (which is another reason i say pis on that scene and think it was meant to be funny and nothing more telling . . .) yet in a h2h fight thing hurt him.
i've no idea where this idea of 10x stronger came from. i've never seen the bubble you talk about. warrior thor IS thor. unfettered.
you're interpretation of the fight with tyrant explains everything accept this: if the orb played no part in the fight and it was all thanos, why bother reaching for it in the first place once he dropped it? maybe that first blast WAS augnmented, just not enough to harm him. maybe thanos didn't use the orb's power (which is what i believe) because he's arrogant and wanted to use only his OWN power at first. when he realized tyrant was far beyond him he used the orb to augment his might for the remainder of the fight. there is no other logical way to explain why he wanted so badly (hand shaking) to regain the orb, then the sudden change in the fight.
warrior thor fought the watch. bill was not part of that portion of the fight i don't think. he'd already been beaten.
thor v strange is utterly irrelevent to the thread.
oh, and what is afaik??
Originally posted by leonidas
kurse was beating thor down. he got the belt and started beating down kurse. then the beyonder amped his strength even MORE. that's why kurse beat him down.the thing example is fine. earlier in the book champ throttles everyone at once (hulk, thor, thing, colossus, namor, wonderman) with just his OWN power! yet in a h2h fight thing hurt him.
i've no idea where this idea of 10x stronger came from. i've never seen the bubble you talk about. warrior thor IS thor. unfettered.
you're interpretation of the fight with tyrant explains everything accept this: if the orb played no part in the fight and it was all thanos, why bother reaching for it in the first place once he dropped it? maybe that first blast WAS augnmented, just not enough to harm him. maybe thanos didn't use the orb's power (which is what i believe) because he's arrogant and wanted to use only his OWN power at first. when he realized tyrant was far beyond him he used the orb to augment his might for the remainder of the fight. there is no other logical way to explain why he wanted so badly (hand shaking) to regain the orb, then the sudden change in the fight.
warrior thor fought the watch. bill was not part of that portion of the fight i don't think. he'd already been beaten.
thor v strange is utterly irrelevent to the thread.
oh, and what is afaik??
by your logic, shouldn't kurse have destroyed thor, in both incarnations, in one blow? He was 2x strength at first, and probably 4x strength after the second amp.
10x stregnth was mentioned in a marvel handbook, and I believe in some comic. The best I can get is this comment by a knowledgeable poster on another forum:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=104608
(Look for lochdale's second post)
afaik = as far as i know.
why would thanos reach for the orb? Because he THINKS it's incredibly valuable. THat doesn't mean he can tap its power, or that the power presumably in the sphere even CAN be used by anyone other than tyrant. All we know is that thanos THINKS that the orb is key to TYRANT's power.
Which turns out to be wrong.
"powerful item is a fake" stories are as old as comics. But until they're discovered to be fakes, people still fight for them.
I don't think there's anything unusual here.
Originally posted by slade10
afaik = as far as i know.why reach for it? Because he THINKS it's incredibly valuable -- as distinct from powerful. THat doesn't mean he can tap its power, or that the power presumably in the sphere even CAN be used by anyone other than tyrant. All we know is that thanos THINKS that the orb is key to TYRANT's power.
Which turns out to be wrong.
"powerful item is a fake" stories are as old as comics. But until they're discovered to be fakes, people still fight for them.
I don't think there's anything unusual here.
and if its fake, it would have SAID it's fake. it wasn't fake. thanos thought it was unique. it wasn't. where does it say fake? and how does it turn the battle when he gets it?? coincidence?
no way. you'll interpret it how you like, i'll interpret it how i like.
incidentally, you're a tenacious little bastard. not a bad debate.
doesn't change the fact that there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor, though. 😉
Originally posted by leonidas
and if its fake, it would have SAID it's fake. it wasn't fake. thanos thought it was unique. it wasn't. where does it say fake? and how does it turn the battle when he gets it?? coincidence?no way. you'll interpret it how you like, i'll interpret it how i like.
incidentally, you're a tenacious little bastard. not a bad debate.
doesn't change the fact that there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor, though. 😉
they don't have to say fake. they show fake/decoy. that's the clear implication when the larger sphere is revealed. that the smaller spheres are mere channels for the real energy source, or something along those lines. I wish i had that scan on hand because I'm pretty sure it says something along those lines in the text.
and it doesn't turn the battle when thanos picks the orb up. again, notice that when he drops it and gets knocked around, his costume is just fine. the blast that really hurts thanos occurs AFTER he picks the orb back up, and is holding it in his hand.
You must think kurse is like the strongest being in the multiverse? He's 4x thor's normal strength, possibly more.
kurse DID crush thor when he was twice as strong.
and no offense to whoever your knowledgeable guy is, but i've collected books for about 25 years and have over 6000 of them. i'll trust my own knowledge, thanks. 😉
the end of the mini says nothing like what you say. thanos mumbles something about hiw tyrant has to live with the knowledge that thanos humbled him. the last pic is tyrant laughing amid a thousand orbs, holding up a ingle large one from among all of them. so all are kept in the same place as this large one, but all are decoys?? makes no sense at all. they all have power. some more than others and he saves them to use on his rematch with galactus.
before he dropped it tyrant was toying with him. his hand is shaking when he reaches for it-- he was hurt and wants it back badly and in a hurry. why? to augment his own power.
you somehow think ALL of the other orbs -- thousands! -- were 'decoys' too?? no way. makes no sense. and the battle DID change. he was bounced around before he regained the orb and shot through it. the effect of the blast was clearly different from the first unaided blast. if that blast was augmented, why not the rest of his power?
seriously, you need to reread that arc again. your interpretation just doesn't hold water.
and kurse IS about the strongest thing out there! he beat down -- easily -- thor and bill simultaneously. not many can do that using nothing more than strength -- in fact NO ONE has ever done anything like that using ONLY strength and no power. but beyonder took back his power so kurse i don't think is that strong anymore. can't recall for sure -- that is a very old arc. and he has a weakness to iron so he can lose easily.
I don't have the comic. I used to have virtually all of these as scans. But my hd went bad a few years back, and I didn't bother trying to recover everything.
I did not say all of them were decoys. The one that was set out apart, and indicated by the computer thanos hacked, probably was. It was too convenient, especially for an entity with cosmic awareness. Why leave incorrect information in your computer if you're not expecting someone to hack it?
requires too much reading into things by the reader. he doesn't use the orb, he's being pummeled. he uses it and the fight suddenly turns more even. coincidence? i don't think so . . .
you'll believe what you want. i have my own thoughts. i think the orb was real. it DID augment thanos in the fight. and there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor.
oh, and for thise saying what about the thread: warrior thor kills herc.
and on the earlier token: you must think thanos would crush kurse easily in a h2h fight, no powers, in a ring. he'd still be at least 25x as strong as kurse. be a walk in the park for him . . . ❌
Originally posted by leonidas
requires too much reading into things by the reader. he doesn't use the orb, he's being pummeled. he uses it and the fight suddenly turns more even. coincidence? i don't think so . . .you'll believe what you want. i have my own thoughts. i think the orb was real. it DID augment thanos in the fight. and there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor.
oh, and for thise saying what about the thread: warrior thor kills herc.
and on the earlier token: you must think thanos would crush kurse easily in a h2h fight, no powers, in a ring. he'd still be at least 25x as strong as kurse. be a walk in the park for him . . . ❌
Where are you getting that he's being pummeled? He's not seriously hurt until AFTER he picks the orb back up.
and yes, thanos would crush kurse -- no tricks, no cosmic energy. Just as he's crushed every other (non-cosmic) character he's ever been in a physical fight with.
other than ss, name one non-cosmic thanos has ko'd using just strength? again, hulk amped by nate held his own. thor and thing knocked him around.
and he WAS being whooped by tyrant. staggers to reach for the orb. smashed through the wall. blasted. why do you think his hands are shaking as he reaches for the orb if he's not hurt??
