Philosophy is FALSE!

Started by Bardock426 pages

Originally posted by Mindship
If God is just an invention, absolutely. But for the sake of argument, if He is not, then an Absolute frame of reference exists, including an absolute moral code. By definition. "Here ye, here ye. This is what Infinite Consciousness expects of us..."

(Although now I'm wondering: is moral relativism against absolutes because there is no God; or even if there was a God, would He still be seen as something relative?)

The problem of course is that we don't know if God is an invention or a discovery. That's why He can't be taken as a given. So I posed the question: might there be another absolute frame of reference?

Well, I believe that even if God or a god exists that the morals are still subjective. Obviously only if you see it in a senes of moist religions, that is that God has an own free will. If you define God as an absolute moral code, then it's per´definition there is absolute morals, but since that is what moral relativist think doesn't exist, it is just a way around the problem.

I wouldn't know where to look for another reason that morals might be absolute though.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Meh, I would address this but I don't have the time and frankly, I'm not reaching you at all. I think you do indeed need to take a serious philosophy course (Preferably college level) or at least read up on the arguments you're presenting first, because I'm not just arguing with my head up my ass here.

Okay, let me make it plain what Im arguing:

Point 1:

Wisdom has a broader meaning than just the discrimination between good and evil. I believe you agreed to this.

Point 2:

If you look at a rock objectively, the cold hard facts, then good and evil dont apply because they are subjective concepts. Mathematics could be applied to a rock, because it is objective by nature and applies to -what can be observed-. Good and evil couldnt be applied to the rock, only to what is subjective -opinions-.

Point 3:

Good and evil have no absolute frame of reference to be 'correct' therefore any thoughts you have about good and evil are opinions. Opinions by nature are equal in value, you may think one opinion is more valid than another but that is *your* opinion.

You havent convinced me, my arguments are wrong.

Lovely.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Okay, let me make it plain what Im arguing:

Point 1:

Wisdom has a broader meaning than just the discrimination between good and evil. I believe you agreed to this.

Yes, I did.


Point 2:

If you look at a rock objectively, the cold hard facts, then good and evil dont apply because they are subjective concepts. Mathematics could be applied to a rock, because it is objective by nature and applies to -what can be observed-. Good and evil couldnt be applied to the rock, only to what is subjective -opinions-.

Good and evil doesn't apply is the correct English usage. And I never once refuted or otherwise contradicted this assessment (Although I disagree on your earlier statement that mathematics can define reality). You seem to be totally missing the point- that human beings assign good and evil via their knowledge of any given thing they perceive in reality. This is pretty damn evident. If you can't see this, that's ridiculous. You're doing it all the time, yet you can't realize that you assign many values to things, along with the value of good and evil. YES, this value is subjective; that's why it's in the eye of the beholder. Way to not get the point.


Point 3:

Good and evil have no absolute frame of reference to be 'correct' therefore any thoughts you have about good and evil are opinions. Opinions by nature are equal in value, you may think one opinion is more valid than another but that is *your* opinion.

Wow, Lord of the Assumptions.

1. We already established that good and evil is subjective. Why regurgitate it?

2. What in the hell does an "Absolute frame of reference" have to do with anything? As we stated earlier, the judgment of good and evil is subject, especially in the case of the non-human object being observed (Since they do not possess a will). Appeal to extended vocabulary won't make your common sense point any more right.

3. What absolute frame of reference states that opinions are equal? Why is that being brought up? Seriously, this entire post was a bunch of nonsense. You're not contradicting any of my ideas; you're just mistakening them apparently.


You havent convinced me, my arguments are wrong.

That's because you don't have an argument. Simply disagreeing with me when I'm making the same points as you isn't having an argument, GV. And really, if you haven't grasped the most basic concept I've set forth before you and analyzed it without resorting to "I disagree/I don't see" on each and every one of my points (Which you later turned out to agree on), then you're not worth the time it takes to type this up.

Now, if you have a real argument that goes beyond "No, I disagree. Here's an obscurely worded and pointless misdirection post", I'll be happy to entertain that. But the point remains that human beings assign values of good and evil to things, and that is based on their knowledge of the object being perceived. That's common sense.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Lovely.

Yes, I did.

Good and evil [b]doesn't apply is the correct English usage. And I never once refuted or otherwise contradicted this assessment (Although I disagree on your earlier statement that mathematics can define reality). You seem to be totally missing the point- that human beings assign good and evil via their knowledge of any given thing they perceive in reality. This is pretty damn evident. If you can't see this, that's ridiculous. You're doing it all the time, yet you can't realize that you assign many values to things, along with the value of good and evil. YES, this value is subjective; that's why it's in the eye of the beholder. Way to not get the point.

Wow, Lord of the Assumptions.

1. We already established that good and evil is subjective. Why regurgitate it?

2. What in the hell does an "Absolute frame of reference" have to do with anything? As we stated earlier, the judgment of good and evil is subject, especially in the case of the non-human object being observed (Since they do not possess a will). Appeal to extended vocabulary won't make your common sense point any more right.

3. What absolute frame of reference states that opinions are equal? Why is that being brought up? Seriously, this entire post was a bunch of nonsense. You're not contradicting any of my ideas; you're just mistakening them apparently.

That's because you don't have an argument. Simply disagreeing with me when I'm making the same points as you isn't having an argument, GV. And really, if you haven't grasped the most basic concept I've set forth before you and analyzed it without resorting to "I disagree/I don't see" on each and every one of my points (Which you later turned out to agree on), then you're not worth the time it takes to type this up.

Now, if you have a real argument that goes beyond "No, I disagree. Here's an obscurely worded and pointless misdirection post", I'll be happy to entertain that. But the point remains that human beings assign values of good and evil to things, and that is based on their knowledge of the object being perceived. That's common sense. [/B]

Wow, way to be an ass Janus. Im getting more and more the feeling you arent grasping *my* concepts, as ridiculous as that is being you have way more experience than me.

You have stated throughout this argument that good and evil could be applied to a rock. Ive been saying you CANT if you take the rock for what it is objectively, instead of applying opinions to it. To be able to apply good and evil to an objective observing of reality, good and evil would have to be objective concepts.

I never denied that humans attribute values to anything they perceive in reality, however values such as morality would differ from person to person. It isnt objective, it isnt what the rock *is*...I cant say it any more clear.

"Wow, Lord of the Assumptions.

1. We already established that good and evil is subjective. Why regurgitate it?

2. What in the hell does an "Absolute frame of reference" have to do with anything? As we stated earlier, the judgment of good and evil is subject, especially in the case of the non-human object being observed (Since they do not possess a will). Appeal to extended vocabulary won't make your common sense point any more right.

3. What absolute frame of reference states that opinions are equal? Why is that being brought up? Seriously, this entire post was a bunch of nonsense. You're not contradicting any of my ideas; you're just mistakening them apparently."

Firstly, where did I make an assumption?

1. Because you keep missing the point at every turn.

2. How can I be more clear? You keep arguing wisdom would increase the validity of any discrimination between good and evil, Im saying good and evil has no absolute frame of reference to be correct. Since you cant be correct, any opinion you have on the matter is equal in value with the next guy.

3. Read my posts.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Wow, way to be an ass Janus. Im getting more and more the feeling you arent grasping *my* concepts, as ridiculous as that is being you have way more experience than me.

You have concepts? I don't see any so far. Certainly none very well formulated. Well, aside from mine. Don't play the victim, GV. You made it a point to continually address my posts; now you have my full attention. If you buckle and waiver under it, that's your problem. Suck it up or don't debate. It's that simple.


You have stated throughout this argument that good and evil could be applied to a rock. Ive been saying you CANT if you take the rock for what it is objectively, instead of applying opinions to it. To be able to apply good and evil to an objective observing of reality, good and evil would have to be objective concepts.

You seem to be off in another world. Once we introduced the concepts of good and evil, trying to be objective little scientists suddenly doesn't work anymore. There isn't any good or evil in the rock itself; it's simply its nature that human beings decide is either good or evil, and to what degree. I don't see what about that concept you can't agree on or realize. You KNOW you've done it yourself- every operational human has.


I never denied that humans attribute values to anything they perceive in reality, however values such as morality would differ from person to person. It isnt objective, it isnt what the rock *is*...I cant say it any more clear.

We're not talking objectively here- we're discussing the aspect of good and evil in things being subjective, which I thought we agreed on.


Firstly, where did I make an assumption?

You made this huge assumption that I was wrong, and then brought irrelevant misdirection in the form of "Omg its not teh objective!" Once I mentioned that good and evil was in the eye of the perceiver, you should have left objective absolutes at the door, GV. This is not 2 + 2 = teh evil.


1. Because you keep missing the point at every turn.

See above. You = no point. Me = wondering what the hell you are trying to get at through all this.


2. How can I be more clear? You keep arguing wisdom would increase the validity of any discrimination between good and evil, Im saying good and evil has no absolute frame of reference to be correct. Since you cant be correct, any opinion you have on the matter is equal in value with the next guy.

...

Originally posted by debbiejo
The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil.

Cicero

Originally posted by Janus Marius
...

There ARE synonyms in the definition, yes. This is because those words must be used in the English language to accurately describe what good is (Assuming anyone who could read that definition didn't know), not because they are the same term.

Here...

dis·tant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dstnt)
adj.

Separate or apart in space.
Far removed; remote: distant lands.
Coming from or going to a distance: a distant sound; a distant telephone call.
Far removed or apart in time: the distant past; distant events.
Far apart in relationship: a distant cousin.
Minimally similar: a distant likeness.
Far removed mentally: distant thoughts.
Aloof or chilly: a distant smile.

How many synonyms do you find in that definition? Why do you suppose that is?

Good and evil are only objectively proven by a noble lie of sorts, from what I've studied. I haven't seen a compelling pure reason argument as to why anything is "evil" or "good" beyond how a person or culture feels about it. That's certainly not the answer I would have given you a few years ago, but it's all I have now.

I think you took Debbie too literally (Or perhaps I took her too generally)- what I believe she's saying is that wisdom helps us discriminate good from evil. As to what that good or that evil is, she doesn't say. And I'm agreeing with her in the sense that wisdom (a.k.a. knowledge) can definately help you discriminate things as good or bad. For example, lack of knowledge lends to stereotypes. However, having more knowledge might actually lead in some sort of understanding of the other party (Or perhaps of an object or creature within nature) and change how you perceive it, whether that be good or bad. Does that make sense now?

No, not at all. But you have to have some kind of knowledge to make any claims in the first place. You can have "partial wisdom" in that case. The term itself can be misleading because wisdom doesn't really denote when you reach it. It's not like "I know X amount of things about Y, therefore I am now wise." Even the term wisdom can be played with a bit. But what I'm saying is, you require some knowledge to make a claim, and in gaining wisdom you can make more thorough, discriminatory claims.

For example, when you were over a year old, could you see a shark and recognize it as bad? Probably not. However, as an adult, even if you haven't had a bad encounter with one, you have the knowledge that they are dangerous, and perhaps you will judge them as bad because of that. Or perhaps you're demented and you like being bitten. Then it's good. Either way, wisdom and knowledge have had an impact on your discrimination.

No, I wouldn't make that kind of mistake. It's not that late in the evening and I have been sober for a long time.

Initially? Perhaps not. I will agree to that. You can make base claims and unsupported claims without wisdom. But you cannot make binding claims until you have some knowledge under your belt. At least, not in clear conscience.

Ah, easy.

Person A comes up walking and slips on the simple rock, breaking his shin. He curses the rock, calling it bad.

Person B comes along, picks up the rock, and decides to research its location and composition. This person finds it a good thing.

In both cases, the rock was assigned a value when it was observed, and that value was either good or bad, and to a lesser or greater degree. Even the most "blah, it's there" rock can be viewed as good in that it's not say, causing harm. Indeed, you could even be perverse about it and see the rock as bad at the same time because it isn't made of gold. So there's always values attached to things, good and bad.

Read OUR posts, please.

Wow.... what a debate....

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You have concepts? I don't see any so far. Certainly none very well formulated. Well, aside from mine. Don't play the victim, GV. You made it a point to continually address my posts; now you have my full attention. If you buckle and waiver under it, that's your problem. Suck it up or don't debate. It's that simple.

You seem to be off in another world. Once we introduced the concepts of good and evil, trying to be objective little scientists suddenly doesn't work anymore. There isn't any good or evil in the rock itself; it's simply its nature that human beings decide is either good or evil, and to what degree. I don't see what about that concept you can't agree on or realize. You KNOW you've done it yourself- every operational human has.

We're not talking objectively here- we're discussing the aspect of good and evil in things being subjective, which I thought we agreed on.

You made this huge assumption that I was wrong, and then brought irrelevant misdirection in the form of "Omg its not teh objective!" Once I mentioned that good and evil was in the eye of the perceiver, you should have left objective absolutes at the door, GV. This is not 2 + 2 = teh evil.

See above. You = no point. Me = wondering what the hell you are trying to get at through all this.

...

Read OUR posts, please.

*sigh* As always, you resort to being an immature prick when you dont get your way. At first I thought perhaps you had an insight I somehow didnt perceive, but now its plain you just have your head up your ass. Indeed your wasting *my* time, so Ill make this short and sweet.

'Wisdom is the discrimination between good and evil.'

It was YOUR contention that this statement was correct. However, you have been defeated on all fronts; you cant prove wisdom can be confined to good and evil, you cant prove good and evil is applicable to objective reality, and you cant prove why wisdom would make one *opinion* more valid than the next.

Basic logic dictates that an -opinion- has no real value. Is this concept beyond you, Oh God of Debate?

Seriously, come back when you can actually support your claims(without constant Ad Hominem/Irrelevent Misdirections).

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
*sigh* As always, you resort to being an immature prick when you dont get your way. At first I thought perhaps you had an insight I somehow didnt perceive, but now its plain you just have your head up your ass. Indeed your wasting *my* time, so Ill make this short and sweet.

Dramatic sigh + name calling + this is a waste of time = I have no rebuttal worth mentioning.

Head up my ass? GV, the only thing you can claim to have proven here is that you can't comprehend anything I type.

Watch as I demonstrate that:


'Wisdom is the discrimination between good and evil.'

It was YOUR contention that this statement was correct.

Good way to forget my original reply to it- "In a sense, this is true." What part of "in a sense" slipped past you? Did you also fail to realize that this statement is only true when you start to apply subjective values of good and evil to things as an observer? Did you also fail to realize that all human beings do make these judgment calls? I think so.


However, you have been defeated on all fronts;

Nope. Not even close. Just because you refuse to accept my argument doesn't mean I've been "Defeated". You are not the ultimate arbitrator of what is logically sound or not. Most certainly not even close, since you lack the basic reading comprehension to grasp a point I've demontrasted very clearly and even gone on to simplify it just for you.


you cant prove wisdom can be confined to good and evil,

That's because I never made any such claim. I even agreed with Mindship that wisdom is NOT confined to just defining good and evil. Reading comprehension is your friend.

you cant prove good and evil is applicable to objective reality,

Of course not. It's a human idea. That makes it subjective to the human mind. What part of that did you fail to grasp?

and you cant prove why wisdom would make one *opinion* more valid than the next.

... Obviously you didn't read my argument on the idea of knowledge in the a priori thread; knowledge constitutes perceiving something, and knowing the logos or logic behind its nature. Obviously someone's opinion is more valid than another's if that person KNOWS more than the latter. If a neurologist and a fifteen year old schoolkid sit around and make statements of supposed fact about the human brain, who would you consider to have the more valid opinion? Even if the neurologist is making guesswork on the human brain (Which would constitute more of an opinion than simply stating fact), he's a more authoritative source than the fifteen year old ignoramus.

Honestly, if that ever eluded you, you need to pay attention in the world. There's a reason why even the opinion of a trained professional is held over that of a complete ignoramus.


Basic logic dictates that an -opinion- has no real value. Is this concept beyond you, Oh God of Debate?

See above. Everything you say and do is at some point an opinion, based on your knowledge and perceptions. You cannot know the absolute truth about anything, because all you know is a world through your senses and that is in turn processed by a human brain. Therefore, when you say "That's a brown bookcase over there", you're stating an opinion. If you're really perceiving the bookcase, then it's an informed opinion. If you have no clue what a bookcase is, or can't see brown, or otherwise, you might be making an unsupported guess. Basic logic dictates that the person perceiving can make a correct assessment of their own perceptions' take on the bookscase, but this doesn't constitute it's reality outside of the human mental sphere. That bookcase could be of a totally different nature, but we simply cannot perceive it. It could exist in more than three dimensions, but we can only see it as it is in ours.

You should stop trying to play like I don't know what I'm talking about when you haven't even evaluated the basic premises of your argument.


Seriously, come back when you can actually support your claims(without constant Ad Hominem/Irrelevent Misdirections).

I just did. I was more thorough and civil this time, but that won't win you over either. I expect another short and irrelevant reply that doesn't address my argument at all but instead pulls a strawman and attacks an argument I didn't make in the first place.

Your move.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Dramatic sigh + name calling + this is a waste of time = I have no rebuttal worth mentioning.

Head up my ass? GV, the only thing you can claim to have proven here is that you can't comprehend anything I type.

Watch as I demonstrate that:

Good way to forget my original reply to it- "In a sense, this is true." What part of "in a sense" slipped past you? Did you also fail to realize that this statement is only true when you start to apply subjective values of good and evil to things as an observer? Did you also fail to realize that all human beings do make these judgment calls? I think so.

Nope. Not even close. Just because you refuse to accept my argument doesn't mean I've been "Defeated". You are not the ultimate arbitrator of what is logically sound or not. Most certainly not even close, since you lack the basic reading comprehension to grasp a point I've demontrasted very clearly and even gone on to simplify it just for you.

That's because I never made any such claim. I even agreed with Mindship that wisdom is NOT confined to just defining good and evil. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Of course not. It's a human idea. That makes it subjective to the human mind. What part of that did you fail to grasp?

... Obviously you didn't read my argument on the idea of knowledge in the a priori thread; knowledge constitutes perceiving something, and knowing the logos or logic behind its nature. Obviously someone's opinion is more valid than another's if that person KNOWS more than the latter. If a neurologist and a fifteen year old schoolkid sit around and make statements of supposed fact about the human brain, who would you consider to have the more valid opinion? Even if the neurologist is making guesswork on the human brain (Which would constitute more of an opinion than simply stating fact), he's a more authoritative source than the fifteen year old ignoramus.

Honestly, if that ever eluded you, you need to pay attention in the world. There's a reason why even the opinion of a trained professional is held over that of a complete ignoramus.

See above. Everything you say and do is at some point an opinion, based on your knowledge and perceptions. You cannot know the absolute truth about anything, because all you know is a world through your senses and that is in turn processed by a human brain. Therefore, when you say "That's a brown bookcase over there", you're stating an opinion. If you're really perceiving the bookcase, then it's an informed opinion. If you have no clue what a bookcase is, or can't see brown, or otherwise, you might be making an unsupported guess. Basic logic dictates that the person perceiving can make a correct assessment of their own perceptions' take on the bookscase, but this doesn't constitute it's reality outside of the human mental sphere. That bookcase could be of a totally different nature, but we simply cannot perceive it. It could exist in more than three dimensions, but we can only see it as it is in ours.

You should stop trying to play like I don't know what I'm talking about when you haven't even evaluated the basic premises of your argument.

I just did. I was more thorough and civil this time, but that won't win you over either. I expect another short and irrelevant reply that doesn't address my argument at all but instead pulls a strawman and attacks an argument I didn't make in the first place.

Your move.

"Dramatic sigh + name calling + this is a waste of time = I have no rebuttal worth mentioning."

You started the insults buddy, I would of much rather avoided them.

"Head up my ass? GV, the only thing you can claim to have proven here is that you can't comprehend anything I type."

Whatever...

"Good way to forget my original reply to it- "In a sense, this is true." What part of "in a sense" slipped past you? Did you also fail to realize that this statement is only true when you start to apply subjective values of good and evil to things as an observer? Did you also fail to realize that all human beings do make these judgment calls? I think so."

If you dont fully believe in your own contention, why do you continue to argue? And again you miss the point, all human beings make judgement calls yes, but that doesnt mean the calls have any real value. Only objective judgements, can have a real value within the real world. Any discrimination you make on a subjective basis, is completely irrelevent...Why cant you understand this?

"Nope. Not even close. Just because you refuse to accept my argument doesn't mean I've been "Defeated". You are not the ultimate arbitrator of what is logically sound or not. Most certainly not even close, since you lack the basic reading comprehension to grasp a point I've demontrasted very clearly and even gone on to simplify it just for you."

Again you insult my intelligence, and at the same time make an asshat of yourself, because you have been ignorant of my points...Ask your freaking philosophy instructor, perhaps he can enlighten you on what Im trying to get across here.

"That's because I never made any such claim. I even agreed with Mindship that wisdom is NOT confined to just defining good and evil. Reading comprehension is your friend."

Why did you attempt to prove Debbiejos statement was correct then, if *you* dont even believe its true?

"Of course not. It's a human idea. That makes it subjective to the human mind. What part of that did you fail to grasp?"

You admit defeat then, if discrimination between good and evil is to have any real value it *has* to be applicable to objective reality.

"... Obviously you didn't read my argument on the idea of knowledge in the a priori thread; knowledge constitutes perceiving something, and knowing the logos or logic behind its nature. Obviously someone's opinion is more valid than another's if that person KNOWS more than the latter. If a neurologist and a fifteen year old schoolkid sit around and make statements of supposed fact about the human brain, who would you consider to have the more valid opinion? Even if the neurologist is making guesswork on the human brain (Which would constitute more of an opinion than simply stating fact), he's a more authoritative source than the fifteen year old ignoramus.

Honestly, if that ever eluded you, you need to pay attention in the world. There's a reason why even the opinion of a trained professional is held over that of a complete ignoramus."

Illogical...An opinion supported by objective facts is no longer an opinion, but a theory. However dont confuse what were debating about, were debating solely about good vs evil, subjective concepts, therefore you would be unable to obtain facts because there is no objective basis to obtain facts in the first place. A theory on morality, is literally a contradiction of terms.

"See above. Everything you say and do is at some point an opinion, based on your knowledge and perceptions. You cannot know the absolute truth about anything, because all you know is a world through your senses and that is in turn processed by a human brain. Therefore, when you say "That's a brown bookcase over there", you're stating an opinion. If you're really perceiving the bookcase, then it's an informed opinion. If you have no clue what a bookcase is, or can't see brown, or otherwise, you might be making an unsupported guess. Basic logic dictates that the person perceiving can make a correct assessment of their own perceptions' take on the bookscase, but this doesn't constitute it's reality outside of the human mental sphere. That bookcase could be of a totally different nature, but we simply cannot perceive it. It could exist in more than three dimensions, but we can only see it as it is in ours."

The method is all that is important, to us, reasoning and empirical evidence is our objective reality for it follows objective method. What is outside of our objective method, cant be known, and therefore is not worth talking about. Occams Razor.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If you dont fully believe in your own contention, why do you continue to argue? And again you miss the point, all human beings make judgement calls yes, but that doesnt mean the calls have any real value. Only objective judgements, can have a real value within the real world. Any discrimination you make on a subjective basis, is completely irrelevent...Why cant you understand this?

I understand things quite well. You seem to be the one who was dropped on his head at birth. Allow me to demonstrate:

And again you miss the point, all human beings make judgement calls yes, but that doesnt mean the calls have any real value.

Yes, they do have real value in that they do effect human reality. When a human being assigns values to an object in the real world (Which we do every single time we perceive something) those values are real to the person. Don't try and argue about reality outside of human perception- no such thing can be discerned. That's foolish. Objectivity is subject to the human experience. I don't know why you can't grasp that. I suspect it's because you haven't taken any higher learning classes or given any real thought to your own premises.

Only objective judgements, can have a real value within the real world.

Assinine statement. The real world does not give value to objective statements; human beings do. And objectivity, again, is subject to the human experience. Even reason, our most objective tool, is a product of the human mind and nothing more. You cannot "find" reason outside of the human mind; it's a mental construct. You keep talking about the "real world", but you can't bring me reason on a plate. See the foolishness of such claims now?


Again you insult my intelligence, and at the same time make an asshat of yourself, because you have been ignorant of my points...Ask your freaking philosophy instructor, perhaps he can enlighten you on what Im trying to get across here.

lmao... Please. My philosophy professor agrees with me. And he's far more educated than you are. Just because you can't grasp it doesn't mean it isn't there, GV. I'm making perfect sense and you're arguing with your head up your ass. Sorry, that's your failure, not mine.


Why did you attempt to prove Debbiejos statement was correct then, if *you* dont even believe its true?

Wow, way to lack reading comprehension. I made the assertion that Debbie Jo's statement is correct in a certain sense. I then provided the context in which it IS correct. "In a sense, wisdom is the determining factor between good and evil". Yes, this is true. The sentence was wide open- I could have easily applied a few other instances in which it was correct. I like how you are attempting to say that the statement is 100% incorrect when it's a subjective statement to begin with. Good and evil are subjective values, imposed on nature by human beings. So naturally, what good and evil is will be determined by knowledge and by the perceiver. That's pretty damn evident. That you fail to grasp this is astounding. It's not like she said "2 + 2 = bob"; she made an open statement, echoed from Cicero, on good and evil, two subjective values.


You admit defeat then, if discrimination between good and evil is to have any real value it *has* to be applicable to objective reality.

I'm so glad I'm being second guessed by a philosophy amateur and ignoramus.

GV, define this "real value" you keep spouting off about? Define "objective reality". Now do it without putting your foot in your mouth, which I don't think you can do. "Objective reality" is reality relative to the human being. "Real value", if I had to define it, would be value relative to the human being. I realize you can't reason to save your soul, but you cannot establish reality outside of the human experience. Because of this, when you attempt to spout of "objective", you can only cite "objectivity relative to the human mind, a.k.a. reason or perception".

So unless you can pull objectivity out of your ass and define it here without it fitting my definition and somehow still being correct, I'll entertain your delusions. But until then, stop playing like you have a handle on philosophy. You don't. Objectivity is only an asset when the values being used are agreed upon. This is not symbolic reason; it's semantics and metaphysics. It's also common sense, which symbolic logic fails to properly capture. If you can't realize that this so-called objectivity you're arguing is in reality subject to the limitations of the human experience, you have a long long way to go.


Illogical...

Yeah, okay, Spock-wannabe.

An opinion supported by objective facts is no longer an opinion, but a theory.

Aside from the misuse of objective here (Since objectivity is again, relative to the human experience), you seem to be agreeing with me; that when the person involved has a wealth of information to draw upon, any opinions or guesswork on the subject which he or she has info on suddenly has more weight. Hence why I said that knowledge changes the perception of the values of good or evil in objects. And also that the values assigned by a person with knowledge are more sound than those assigned by someone who doesn't have a clue.

However dont confuse what were debating about, were debating solely about good vs evil, subjective concepts, therefore you would be unable to obtain facts because there is no objective basis to obtain facts in the first place.

Way to confuse the point- you don't acquire facts on the good or evil of an object or thing; you acquire facts on its nature. And that nature itself only has the degrees of good or evil that the perceiving human assigns to it. A ball bounces. That's it's nature. But if that nature is deterimental to the goals or beliefs of the perceiving human being, that ball has a degree of evil to it, that it's assigned by the human. This extends to a human level- if a human being has a nature, that nature is essentially what it is; and it's the other party who assigns it value. Though of course, since a human being is an autonomous creature capable of higher reason, it can also assign value to its own nature. A rock can't do the same.


A theory on morality, is literally a contradiction of terms.

Except this isn't a theory on morality; that's a theory of supposed feasibility based on a social scale. This is simply relating how the human mind works, assigning values. It's an explanation, not an "what one ought to do" theory.


The method is all that is important, to us, reasoning and empirical evidence is our objective reality for it follows objective method. What is outside of our objective method, cant be known, and therefore is not worth talking about. Occams Razor.

I don't get your point, Spock. Yes, objectivity is a goal and is what we consider reason. And yes, empircism is a fine tool to use. However, you fail to realize that both of these tools are first and foremost relative to the human being using them. That's why we never all agree on anything. If reason and empiricism were truly "objective" in the real sense, we would all agree to their products instinctively. Occam's Razor doesn't mean "Let's totally disregard the evident point that objectivity is subject to the human experience; let's all be tools and follow GV's delusional mode of reasoning that concludes only 'objective' real values count." At least know what you're arguing about, Spock.

I expect another short and irrelevant reply that doesn't address my argument at all but instead pulls a strawman and attacks an argument I didn't make in the first place.

^ Damn, was I right.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I understand things quite well. You seem to be the one who was dropped on his head at birth. Allow me to demonstrate:

Yes, they do have real value in that they do effect human reality. When a human being assigns values to an object in the real world (Which we do every single time we perceive something) those values are real to the person. Don't try and argue about reality outside of human perception- no such thing can be discerned. That's foolish. Objectivity is subject to the human experience. I don't know why you can't grasp that. I suspect it's because you haven't taken any higher learning classes or given any real thought to your own premises.

Assinine statement. The real world does not give value to objective statements; human beings do. And objectivity, again, is subject to the human experience. Even reason, our most objective tool, is a product of the human mind and nothing more. You cannot "find" reason outside of the human mind; it's a mental construct. You keep talking about the "real world", but you can't bring me reason on a plate. See the foolishness of such claims now?

lmao... Please. My philosophy professor agrees with me. And he's far more educated than you are. Just because you can't grasp it doesn't mean it isn't there, GV. I'm making perfect sense and you're arguing with your head up your ass. Sorry, that's your failure, not mine.

Wow, way to lack reading comprehension. I made the assertion that Debbie Jo's statement is correct in a certain sense. I then provided the context in which it IS correct. "In a sense, wisdom is the determining factor between good and evil". Yes, this is true. The sentence was wide open- I could have easily applied a few other instances in which it was correct. I like how you are attempting to say that the statement is 100% incorrect when it's a subjective statement to begin with. Good and evil are subjective values, imposed on nature by human beings. So naturally, what good and evil is will be determined by knowledge and by the perceiver. That's [b]pretty damn evident. That you fail to grasp this is astounding. It's not like she said "2 + 2 = bob"; she made an open statement, echoed from Cicero, on good and evil, two subjective values.

I'm so glad I'm being second guessed by a philosophy amateur and ignoramus.

GV, define this "real value" you keep spouting off about? Define "objective reality". Now do it without putting your foot in your mouth, which I don't think you can do. "Objective reality" is reality relative to the human being. "Real value", if I had to define it, would be value relative to the human being. I realize you can't reason to save your soul, but you cannot establish reality outside of the human experience. Because of this, when you attempt to spout of "objective", you can only cite "objectivity relative to the human mind, a.k.a. reason or perception".

So unless you can pull objectivity out of your ass and define it here without it fitting my definition and somehow still being correct, I'll entertain your delusions. But until then, stop playing like you have a handle on philosophy. You don't. Objectivity is only an asset when the values being used are agreed upon. This is not symbolic reason; it's semantics and metaphysics. It's also common sense, which symbolic logic fails to properly capture. If you can't realize that this so-called objectivity you're arguing is in reality subject to the limitations of the human experience, you have a long long way to go.

Yeah, okay, Spock-wannabe.

Aside from the misuse of objective here (Since objectivity is again, relative to the human experience), you seem to be agreeing with me; that when the person involved has a wealth of information to draw upon, any opinions or guesswork on the subject which he or she has info on suddenly has more weight. Hence why I said that knowledge changes the perception of the values of good or evil in objects. And also that the values assigned by a person with knowledge are more sound than those assigned by someone who doesn't have a clue.

Way to confuse the point- you don't acquire facts on the good or evil of an object or thing; you acquire facts on its nature. And that nature itself only has the degrees of good or evil that the perceiving human assigns to it. A ball bounces. That's it's nature. But if that nature is deterimental to the goals or beliefs of the perceiving human being, that ball has a degree of evil to it, that it's assigned by the human. This extends to a human level- if a human being has a nature, that nature is essentially what it is; and it's the other party who assigns it value. Though of course, since a human being is an autonomous creature capable of higher reason, it can also assign value to its own nature. A rock can't do the same.

Except this isn't a theory on morality; that's a theory of supposed feasibility based on a social scale. This is simply relating how the human mind works, assigning values. It's an explanation, not an "what one ought to do" theory.

I don't get your point, Spock. Yes, objectivity is a goal and is what we consider reason. And yes, empircism is a fine tool to use. However, you fail to realize that both of these tools are first and foremost relative to the human being using them. That's why we never all agree on anything. If reason and empiricism were truly "objective" in the real sense, we would all agree to their products instinctively. Occam's Razor doesn't mean "Let's totally disregard the evident point that objectivity is subject to the human experience; let's all be tools and follow GV's delusional mode of reasoning that concludes only 'objective' real values count." At least know what you're arguing about, Spock.

^ Damn, was I right. [/B]

-How would good and evil effect our reality, when it has no concrete value? Rinse, repeat...you still arent getting it.

-Yes it is a mental construct...your point? Reason is an objective method, without bias, that can be applied to what we observe. Good and evil is not an objective method, it is by nature bias, and can provide no concrete value within reality. Rinse, repeat...

-Well than perhaps he can provide better arguments...Arguing with you is really getting tiresome, you fail to comprehend the most basic points.

-If a statement is not 100% correct, then it is not sound reason. WTF are you trying to say? Anyone can give their opinion on the matter, but for it to be correct it cannot be subjective.

"GV, define this "real value" you keep spouting off about? Define "objective reality" "

Main Entry: 1ob·jec·tive
Pronunciation: &b-'jek-tiv, äb-
Function: adjective
1 a : relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence -- used chiefly in medieval philosophy b : of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind <objective reality> <our reveries... are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world -- Marvin Reznikoff> -- compare SUBJECTIVE 3a c of a symptom of disease : perceptible to persons other than the affected individual -- compare SUBJECTIVE 4c d : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects , conditions, or phenomena <objective awareness> <objective data>
2 : relating to, characteristic of, or constituting the case of words that follow prepositions or transitive verbs
3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
synonym see MATERIAL, FAIR

Your argument goes against the very definition of objectivity...do you understand yet? Real value is what is objective, doesnt change.

-I just did. It is a direct contradiction of your definition, actually.

-I was merely pointing out your arguments are illogical, which they are. Stop boring me with Ad Hominem, it doesnt make your arguments more valid. And Spock>>>>>>>>>You.

-Anything relating to good and evil cannot be considered true knowledge, because it is subjective. Any values assigned to good and evil, are based purely on opinion...again, no real value.

-Exactly, you cant acquire facts on an objects good or evil, only its nature. Its when you apply good and evil to its nature, it becomes subjective and doesnt have a concrete value anymore.

-Supposes feasibility based on a social scale? WTF?

And yes, subjective values.

-Ofcourse you dont get my point, you have your head up your ass. How is objectivity relative to the human using them? Reason doesnt change, atleast sound reason. Mathematics doesnt change. Perception doesnt change, unless you have some kind of operational problem. Instinctively? WTF are you talking about man, that brings in intuition which is a whole different ballgame.

I will now await your reply, which will no doubt consist of more Ad Hominem/Irrelevent Misdirections/Argument from Ignorance/ And whatever the logical fallacy is for plain idiocy.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
-How would good and evil effect our reality, when it has no concrete value? Rinse, repeat...you still arent getting it.

This is an assinine question, GV. "How can emotions effect our reality? How can past memories effect our reality? How can drugs effect our reality?" Seriously, do you not get it? Evil and good are every bit as real to the person perceiving them as are emotions, memories, and mind altering drugs. If this were not the case, you would run around not worrying about anything, because there would be no evil infringing on your view of reality... would there? Don't be stupid, GV. You know very well what I'm talking about. You just don't want to admit it and admit that you're talking out of your ass right now.


-Yes it is a mental construct...your point? Reason is an objective method, without bias, that can be applied to what we observe. Good and evil is not an objective method, it is by nature bias, and can provide no concrete value within reality. Rinse, repeat...

"Rinse, repeat"? Is that what you do to your brain every time I make a logical point? I think so. I can't believe people exist as deluded as yourself. This is rich.

Spock, MENTAL CONSTRUCTS MAKE REALITY. Why is that? Because what we call "reality" is what we can know of what really is. This does NOT mean that our reality is the real one, or that it's full and complete. For example, you and I can't see infrared; we can't see heat. We can't see UV rays. We can't perceive X-rays. Etc. etc. etc. In fact, the only way we can say that those things exist is to infer them.

Just in case you didn't check "infer" at Dictionary.com, where you do must of your philosophical studying:

in·fer ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fûr)
v. in·ferred, in·fer·ring, in·fers
v. tr.
To conclude from evidence or premises.
To reason from circumstance; surmise: We can infer that his motive in publishing the diary was less than honorable.
To lead to as a consequence or conclusion: “Socrates argued that a statue inferred the existence of a sculptor” (Academy).
To hint; imply.

Note that nowhere does that say "This defines reality absolutely and objectively". That's because infering doesn't; it's educated guesswork based on the most objective tool we have: reason. I'm not saying "reason isn't objective" here, GV. I'm saying reason isn't absolute. We can construct incredibly thorough and tested logical arguments, but they don't guarantee 100% accuracy, nor do they actually reveal to us reality outside of our own minds and senses. For example, correlation is not causation. The idea of causation can never be affirmed, yet it's presupposed in every single explanation.

Also, explain to me how you can remove bias from using reason? I've never seen you do it once, so you can't be arguing from experience. You're easily one of the most biased people on these forums. You talking about non-biased objectivity is like a whore speaking about abstinence.


-Well than perhaps he can provide better arguments...Arguing with you is really getting tiresome, you fail to comprehend the most basic points.

Cute. You can't refute any of my points because for one- they're right, and two- you don't have the reasoning power of headlice. You think I'm just arguing complete nonsense here? Really? Is that why I'm heading a philosophy group at my university next year? Because I am totally clueless and incapable of reason? Please. You can call my arguments "tiresome", but the only thing tiresome here is your assinine persistance in not getting it.


-If a statement is not 100% correct, then it is not sound reason.

Way to not know reason. See above on "inference". All rational products are inferences. Even in deductive reasoning, where IF the premises are true, THEN the conclusion must neccessarily be true, the arguments can be flawed, oversimplified, or not accounting for a hidden or unincluded variable. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I suggest you use Reference.com or Wikipedia, your buddies, and look up logic and reason, because you apparently don't know any of it.


WTF are you trying to say? Anyone can give their opinion on the matter, but for it to be correct it cannot be subjective.

Again, you fail at life and reading comprehension, Spock. In an open statement, where the objects in question are totally relative, there are no truly wrong answers.. You can be wrong about established facts, but you cannot be wrong about the fact that you feel a certain way about a certain thing. (Because you obviously do. It's not whether or not that feeling is properly justified through extensive knowledge; it's the fact that you are experiencing it, therefore it is happening to you.)

Now, I upheld that anyone can have feelings of evil or good about any thing. That's inherent in the human psyche. It's also self evident if you're a human being. I went on to say that if a person possessed actual and thorough knowledge of the thing being judged, it would a- possibly change their feelings towards it, and b- give them a slightly more authoratitive stance on it. Speaking on the latter, if a child says a bear is evil but knows nothing of it, his stance is unsupported. If a park ranger with numerous scars says a bear is dangerous, you have reason to believe he has the authority to say that.

This is all common sense. I suggest you pick some up.


"GV, define this "real value" you keep spouting off about? Define "objective reality" "

Main Entry: 1ob·jec·tive
Pronunciation: &b-'jek-tiv, äb-
Function: adjective
1 a : relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence -- used chiefly in medieval philosophy b : of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind <objective reality> <our reveries... are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world -- Marvin Reznikoff> -- compare SUBJECTIVE 3a c of a symptom of disease : perceptible to persons other than the affected individual -- compare SUBJECTIVE 4c d : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects , conditions, or phenomena <objective awareness> <objective data>
2 : relating to, characteristic of, or constituting the case of words that follow prepositions or transitive verbs
3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
synonym see MATERIAL, FAIR

Your argument goes against the very definition of objectivity...do you understand yet? Real value is what is objective, doesnt change.

There should be a test mandatory to take before you can post here. It is absolutely amazing the lack of knowledge you possess.

Firstly, you did NOT define for me "real value" as you meant it. Any ******* can quote Dictionary.com (Indeed, it's the new trend around here.) but it takes a real debator and philosopher to know exactly what the hell he's arguing about. You apparently don't you can't define "real value" for me outside of the human experience. So, QED. You may go home now.

Second, my argument is an explanation of how the human mind assigns subjective values to things, including the values of good and evil. Unless you can disprove this assertion (Which you can't; it's pretty damn evident if you're a human being), you're just being dense. If you expect to attack my explanation theory, you need to come to me with "objective facts" to the contrary. You can't. You just keep acting like a smart ass and missing the point. "Playing the fool" should be a logical fallacy officially, so then maybe you could get fifteen minutes of fame.

(To be continued)


-I just did. It is a direct contradiction of your definition, actually.

Would you please learn how to quote properly? I hate having to doublecheck to see which point you mangled or didn't get. You do realize that there's a half dozen people who've seen your argument and are mocking you, right? It's incredible. Quote exactly what you're addressing, Spock.


-I was merely pointing out your arguments are illogical, which they are.

No, they aren't. You can't even cite any logical fallacies I've made. And you certainly can't disprove the argument with objective evidence to the contrary (Because it's pretty damn evident if you're a human being). You can't even begin to pick at my arguments because you don't even have the knowledge to comprehend what I'm saying in the first place. You throw around "ad hominem" which you picked up in SWVF and "illogical" which is Spock's catchphrase and you Dictionary'd "objectivity" as though that actually proved your point (GV, I've had philosophy and reason classes for the last four years. I'm way ahead of you on ALL of this.)... I mean, seriously. You're just here to nitpick and disagree because you can't admit that you have NO ARGUMENT.

Stop boring me with Ad Hominem, it doesnt make your arguments more valid. And Spock>>>>>>>>>You.

For someone who's bored with my "ad hominem", you certainly keep addressing it. And Ad Hominem is when you attack the person, not their argument. You barely have an argument, and every point you put up I smack down because unlike you, I DO have an argument. You can't even type more than fifty words per reply, and yet I've been writing novels. If you really had extensive knowledge, you could show me exactly where it's wrong that people assign values to things (Denying that they do it.) or that it's wrong that objective reality as we know it is only subject to the human experience (And indeed what we consider real is only real by the opinion of others in a sense; not everyone has the ability to perceive the world exactly the same, but since 9 out of 10 people see a rock the same way, we assume that the rock is how those 9 perceive it. That's called collective objectivity.)


-Anything relating to good and evil cannot be considered true knowledge, because it is subjective.

I beg to differ- good and evil is defined by the person. You know what they consider good and evil and you come to understand them. That IS knowledge. Knowing what kinds of flowers your mother likes is trying to KNOW a subjective truth. Is that pointless too? Don't be stupid.


Any values assigned to good and evil, are based purely on opinion...again, no real value.

What is this "real value" that you keep citing, GV? Stop skirting this question and ANSWER IT.


-Exactly, you cant acquire facts on an objects good or evil, only its nature. Its when you apply good and evil to its nature, it becomes subjective and doesnt have a concrete value anymore.

Concrete value? Will you stop throwing around vague terms? I can at least put forth the logos for my terms and definitions; you can't. You just throw them out there and then cite dictionary.com for an equally vague and irrelevant definition.

GV, for the last damn time, define your terms! Define "real value", "Concrete value", and their relevance to this argument.

And stop strawmanning. Jesus.


-Supposes feasibility based on a social scale? WTF?

Moral theory = how people ought to act in a large social group or state-sized group. If there is one person in the world, a moral theory has no relevance, because it's only there to determine how people ought to act around and to other human beings. When your balls drop and you get into college and you manage to qualify for a philosophy course on Ethics and Moral Reasoning, I suggest you read the book. Until then, stop acting like you know a damn thing.


-Ofcourse you dont get my point, you have your head up your ass.

Spock, Master of Reason makes truth known again! Look-- he says "You have your head up your ass". It must be true simply because he asserted it! No further reasoning or defining neccessary!

*Crowd goes wild for GV's super awesome reasoning skills.*

Seriously... Stop being a fool. I can at least show you how you're clearly arguing in the face of reason. You just say "omfg u argue wit yer hed up a$$" and then go into Wonderland on Acid.

How is objectivity relative to the human using them?

No, not the human, Spock. ALL humans. Objective reason is a tool used by human beings. Human beings are limited by their senses and mental processing capability. Hence, objective reason is relative to the human experience (human thinking and senses). You cannot divine knowledge outside of the senses, and you cannot process knowledge outside of the human brain about reality. Therefore, everything that you "know" about reality comes through a filter of human limitations. Because of this, humans cannot truly "know" anything about reality other than what they can at best infer based on trial and error. I said the same thing in the a priori thread and you didn't bat an eye there.


Reason doesnt change, atleast sound reason. Mathematics doesnt change.

The things you speak of are mere symbolism. The sound, unchanging reason you speak of is formal reasoning. Same with mathematics. However, those forms of reason only have the value that we as human beings give them. We as human beings more or less, agree to certain givens. One of them is that 2 is 2. You can't reason that 2 is 2 because 2 is a symbol meaning numbers. In an equation, these symbols represent something in the real (Or imagined) world, but you cannot prove that 2 really is 2; it's only 2 because human beings decided it was. Just like none of these letters on this post have ANY meaning whatsoever outside of humanity. They only have meaning because we ASSIGN that meaning. So in this, even symbolism is relative to the human will and experience. This DOESN'T mean that formal reason and mathematics is not objective in our sense (Because it is- we cite these two as examples of objective tools. However, a lot of people fail to address the fact that they're only symbols with assigned meaning, making them subjective to humanity)


Perception doesnt change, unless you have some kind of operational problem. Instinctively? WTF are you talking about man, that brings in intuition which is a whole different ballgame.

I knew I should have really elaborated on that one. What I was getting at is that if products of reason were 100% objective, every single human being would recognize them as such without being needed to walk through it. But the point is that people don't realize rationality when they see it. Not everyone has fully developed rational functions. And it cannot be universally objective; it can only be objective on a human basis, and only in that case because our thinking best realizes it.


I will now await your reply, which will no doubt consist of more Ad Hominem/Irrelevent Misdirections/Argument from Ignorance/ And whatever the logical fallacy is for plain idiocy.

Pfft. You couldn't cite logical fallacies if you had all week to do it. Stop being ridiculous, Spock. You argue about as well as Stephen Hawkings dances.

Hmm. Your right, I dont have the experience to properly show you why you are wrong. However, I am still right. This is getting very tiresome, so excuse me while I borrow a certain persons reasoning of why you are wrong.

" Let me propose my definition of objective reality:

Definition 1: Objective reality is whatever remains true whether you believe in it or not.

Many people may claim that the above definition is insufficiently precise, or perhaps even circular: for instance, what do you mean by “true”? And what do you mean by “believe”? For that matter, what do you mean by “mean”?

For the purposes of my argument, ultimate precision in the meanings of the terms is not important—their common, everyday meanings, with their common, everyday precisions, are good enough. In mathematics (and engineering), there is the concept of sensitivity analysis: a result is often more crucially dependent on certain input parameters than on others, so more imprecision can be tolerated in the less crucial parameters. Later on, I will give a sensitivity analysis to demonstrate that the truth of my argument is not crucially dependent on the precise meanings of any of the above terms.

Another point is that I will be using the terms “objective truth” and “objective reality” completely interchangeably: as far as I’m concerned, what’s true is real, and what’s real is true.

Proof of Objective Reality

This proof is about giving a definite answer to the following question Q:

Q: Is there such a thing as objective reality?

Objective realists would say that the answer A to question Q is:

A1: Yes.

while the cultural relativists would say that the answer is:

A2: No.

So let us ask the meta-question Q':

Q': Is there an answer to question Q?

To which both objective realists and cultural relativists would agree that the answer A' is definitely:

A': Yes.

All parties must be united in accepting that this answer is objectively true, not a matter of someone's individual or cultural belief, for if they did not, then there would be no basis for their dispute. Therefore answer A' is itself an example of objective reality—something that remains true whether anybody believes in it or not. Therefore the answer to question Q is A1 (yes)—there is such a thing as objective reality.

That, in a nutshell, is the basis of the proof of objective reality. But some may argue that the above conclusion is too pat. What if there isn’t a definite answer to meta-question Q'? So now we have a dispute over the answer to meta-meta-question Q'':

Q'': Is there an answer to question Q'?

to which the objective realists say the answer is “yes”, while the meta-cultural-relativists say the answer is “no”. However, all have to be in agreement that the answer to meta-meta-meta-question Q''':

Q''': Is there an answer to question Q''?

is

A''': Yes.

which itself becomes an example of something objectively true, from which the answer to the original question Q is again A1 (yes).

It is clear that the above sequence can be extended ad infinitum: the objective realists always answer “yes” to every question, while the meta-cultural relativists (n = 0, 1, 2 ...) answer “no” to the first 2n+1 questions, and agree with the objective realists thereafter.

Objections to the Proof

What Do the Terms Mean?

I promised above that I would present a sensitivity analysis to demonstrate that the validity of my proof is not crucially dependent on the meanings of any of the terms used in Definition 1.

Let us assume that some reader of this Essay (let us call this individual “A. Reader”) uses some definitions of one or more of the terms used in Definition 1 such that my proof is invalid. For the purposes of this argument, it doesn’t matter what those definitions are, how different they are, or how exactly they result in the proof becoming invalid. In all cases, we can simply sum up the conclusion of A. Reader’s argument as follows:

Hypothetical Refutation 1: A. Reader uses definitions of one or more of the terms mentioned in Definition 1, perhaps together with variant forms of logical argument, that render the objective-reality proof invalid.

In order for this to be a valid objection, it must be objectively true. It shouldn’t matter whether or not I believe that A. Reader uses such definitions or forms of logical argument; it must be true regardless. (After all, if it were possible for me to invalidate the refutation simply by disbelieving it, then I do.)

It follows from this that Hypothetical Refutation 1 itself becomes an example of objective reality. Which means there is such a thing.

The Law of the Excluded Middle

My proofs rely heavily on the reductio ad absurdum technique—that is, assume a proposition is false, show that this leads to a contradiction, therefore the proposition must be true. Implicit in this is what’s called the “law of the excluded middle”—that is, if a proposition can be shown not to be false, then it must be true, and vice versa. But some people might object: “what if the law of the excluded middle is not valid?” To which I have only this to say: even if the law of the excluded middle is not true, that doesn’t mean it’s false.

Alternative Logics?

The law-of-the-excluded-middle objection is just one of a family of objections based on the idea that there are other kinds of logical reasoning besides the traditional, two-valued, either-true-or-false kind that I have used in my proof. And under these alternative kinds of reasoning, it is claimed, my argument might not necessarily be valid.

Trouble is, these objections are all based on a fallacy. To expose the fallacy, consider the following question:

Question L: Are there other kinds of equally valid logical reasoning besides traditional two-valued logic?

Now, those who believe in the validity of multiple kinds of logical reasoning still think of the answer to this question as either yes or no. That is, either it is, or it isn’t, valid to reason in other ways besides that of traditional two-valued logic. It’s got to be one or the other. Thus, even when reasoning about alternative forms of logical reasoning, there is still a special reliance on two-valued logic. No matter how you try to argue otherwise, you cannnot escape from the fact that two-valued logic is more basic, more fundamental than any other kind of reasoning—that it in fact underlies all other forms of reasoning.

To put it another way, consider the difference between logic and mathematics. Mathematics is about exploring the consequences of axioms: given a set of axioms (starting assumptions), which are accepted without proof, a mathematical theory is built by following the chains of deduction that follow logically from those axioms. Different mathematical theories are built from different axioms: thus, the theorems of topology are very different from those of geometry, which are in turn different from those of number theory, and so on.

But regardless of the different axioms which are used as starting points, all mathematical theories are built by following the same kind of logical reasoning. In order to be universally applicable, this logical reasoning must be independent of any particular axioms—otherwise, it could only be used to build certain mathematical theories, but not others.

Thus, the difference between logic and mathematics is that mathematics is always built on axioms, but logic is not. And so those “alternative logics”, which are supposedly built on different starting points from conventional logic, are not really logics at all, but are mathematical theories. True logic has no axioms.

No Logic At All?

This would seem to be a fatal objection: how do you know that logical reasoning is valid at all? Aren’t you simply assuming that it is so?

In fact, it is possible to prove that logical reasoning is valid, in a non-circular fashion (that is, without having to assume that it is valid to begin with). Here is the proof:

1. Assume that logical reasoning is invalid to begin with.
2. Since logical reasoning is invalid, it follows that illogical reasoning is valid.
3. Therefore, since logical reasoning is invalid, it must illogically follow that logical reasoning is in fact valid.
4. QED.

Note that any attempt to poke logical holes in this proof implicitly assumes that there are logical steps that I am not correctly following. In other words, all objections must themselves be based on the assumption that logical reasoning is valid. "

💃 💃 💃

So you respond by copying and pasting? QED, Spock. GTFO and don't let the door hit you on the way out. You can't even address my argument.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So you respond by copying and pasting? QED, Spock. GTFO and don't let the door hit you on the way out. You can't even address my argument.

Lol...

WTF is wrong with you man, are you obsessed with proving me wrong or something? I like to debate on here, even with people more educated than myself, its a good way to learn. You however, make a big deal out of every debate, and act like a total asshat whenever somone disagrees with you. I could really care less who won our debate, are you really that insecure you feel you need to prove something?(And I dont imagine what defeating a 15 year old kid in philosophy would prove anyways.)

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Lol...

WTF is wrong with you man, are you obsessed with proving me wrong or something?

Oh here we go. Cop out in 5.... 4... 3...

I like to debate on here, even with people more educated than myself, its a good way to learn.

Good for you. You get a blue star for being creative.

You however, make a big deal out of every debate, and act like a total asshat whenever somone disagrees with you.

I happen to enjoy taking the time to dissect and put your arguments to rest. I hardly make a "big deal" over it. And being an asshat? What? Because you talked like you knew something and I disproved it? Please. If you can't take the heat, don't sit next to the fire. Whining gets you nowhere with me.


I could really care less who won our debate, are you really that insecure you feel you need to prove something?(And I dont imagine what defeating a 15 year old kid in philosophy would prove anyways.)

I don't think it's really about who wins- it's about what makes sense. You come out of left field and start criticing a theory that reflects common sense and that I went the full nine miles to defend... it's ridiculous. I don't care if you're an 85 year old college professor; if you argue bullshit, I plan to call you on it. There's no "Age defence" here. If you don't like that, don't come to the plate. If you want to "Learn", as you claim, then you'd do better not to antagonize me with your stilted stance and lack of knowledge. You're better off asking questions than taking a stance like I don't know my stuff. That's a personal insult.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oh here we go. Cop out in 5.... 4... 3...

Good for you. You get a blue star for being creative.

I happen to enjoy taking the time to dissect and put your arguments to rest. I hardly make a "big deal" over it. And being an asshat? What? Because you talked like you knew something and I disproved it? Please. If you can't take the heat, don't sit next to the fire. Whining gets you nowhere with me.

I don't think it's really about who wins- it's about what makes sense. You come out of left field and start criticing a theory that reflects common sense and that I went the full nine miles to defend... it's ridiculous. I don't care if you're an 85 year old college professor; if you argue bullshit, I plan to call you on it. There's no "Age defence" here. If you don't like that, don't come to the plate. If you want to "Learn", as you claim, then you'd do better not to antagonize me with your stilted stance and lack of knowledge. You're better off asking questions than taking a stance like I don't know my stuff. That's a personal insult.

"I happen to enjoy taking the time to dissect and put your arguments to rest. I hardly make a "big deal" over it. And being an asshat? What? Because you talked like you knew something and I disproved it? Please. If you can't take the heat, don't sit next to the fire. Whining gets you nowhere with me. "

As much as you want to believe Im completely ignorant, I know my stance was valid. Ive looked it up on philosophy sites, many people share my views. I may not have your extensive knowledge, but that doesnt mean you can act like an asshat and tell me I have no idea what Im talking about.

"I don't think it's really about who wins- it's about what makes sense. You come out of left field and start criticing a theory that reflects common sense and that I went the full nine miles to defend... it's ridiculous. I don't care if you're an 85 year old college professor; if you argue bullshit, I plan to call you on it. There's no "Age defence" here. If you don't like that, don't come to the plate. If you want to "Learn", as you claim, then you'd do better not to antagonize me with your stilted stance and lack of knowledge. You're better off asking questions than taking a stance like I don't know my stuff. That's a personal insult. "

Thats bullshit, theres a difference between disproving an invalid argument and practicing constant Ad Hominem. The fact that you need to use Ad Hominem, reflects insecurity on your part.

My last few arguments were just to piss you off. 🙄

Why? Because your an ass. Im not just whining, no one at all will take you seriously if you behave in this manner. Perhaps you should stick to SWVF, where you fit in nicely.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"I happen to enjoy taking the time to dissect and put your arguments to rest. I hardly make a "big deal" over it. And being an asshat? What? Because you talked like you knew something and I disproved it? Please. If you can't take the heat, don't sit next to the fire. Whining gets you nowhere with me. "

As much as you want to believe Im completely ignorant, I know my stance was valid. Ive looked it up on philosophy sites, many people share my views. I may not have your extensive knowledge, but that doesnt mean you can act like an asshat and tell me I have no idea what Im talking about.

"I don't think it's really about who wins- it's about what makes sense. You come out of left field and start criticing a theory that reflects common sense and that I went the full nine miles to defend... it's ridiculous. I don't care if you're an 85 year old college professor; if you argue bullshit, I plan to call you on it. There's no "Age defence" here. If you don't like that, don't come to the plate. If you want to "Learn", as you claim, then you'd do better not to antagonize me with your stilted stance and lack of knowledge. You're better off asking questions than taking a stance like I don't know my stuff. That's a personal insult. "

Thats bullshit, theres a difference between disproving an invalid argument and practicing constant Ad Hominem. The fact that you need to use Ad Hominem, reflects insecurity on your part.

No, you don't have any sites. And you've shown a remarkable demonstration of not understanding my posts, so I doubt you "found" websites where people agree with you. You also don't have an argument.

And nice try and Freud, kid. I'm sure you're the master of psychology at age 15. You probably don't even shave twice a month and yet you've got a better handle on psychology and philosophy than an adult. Damn, you must be good.

Btw...

Ad hominem abusive
Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves merely (and often unfairly) insulting one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but damning character flaws or actions. The reason that this is fallacious is that — usually, anyway — insults and even damaging facts simply do not undermine what logical support there might be for one's opponent's arguments or assertions.

Personal insults are only fallacies if that's all one's rebuttal consists of-- in other words, every single reply you've had lately is ad hominem abusive because you don't bring anything to the table other than personal jabs: "Oh, you're insecure" "Oh, you're an asshat" "Oh, you should stick to SWVF". Instead of debating with me fairly and showing me specifically how I might be wrong (I would at least respect you if you could address my points fully and directly and not just say "You're wrong, I know it, random unknown people and sites support me, I need not give any real reasoning"😉 you just lay on the insults and the childish behavior (Which shouldn't be surprising).

But thank you for knowing exactly what constitutes ad hominem. I hope you actually learned something from this post.

My last few arguments were just to piss you off.

Why? Because your an ass. Im not just whining, no one at all will take you seriously if you behave in this manner. Perhaps you should stick to SWVF, where you fit in nicely.

^ Ad hominem abusive.

Congratulations, hypocrite.