im curious, most people agreed that Ragnos could take both DN Luke and NJO Luke, in one on one, one after the other, im pretty sure DN Luke will stand a good chance agaisnt Kun and Sidious, and NJO Luke will put up an extremely good fight, but nevertheless get defeated
, on btw, didnt you read IKC's post? Almost all Jedi secrets were destroyed on Ossus, as well as the secrets on Yavin 4, meaning that the sith magic and alchemy studied and created by Naga Sadow, is also destroyed, as a resutl of Kun.
Oh btw, im also wondering about Nihilus's ability, is it definite that his technique has no defense, i mean the secrets lost during the Exar Kun war, perhaps they had a defense against Nihilus's ability, since Nomi Sunrider's ability of blocking someone from the force was never truly used again.
Dont flame me, im not trying to place The Dark Lords of the Sith from Exar kun and before as gods, although i do admit, i consider them as gods..
The only known defense is the Exile, who is a wound in the force.
However, it is said in game that the ability is derived from the Ancient Sith, so somewhere along the line, some ancient Sith had that ability or something similar and it is entirely possible that individual became Dark Lord or the rest of the Ancient Sith developed resistance/defense against that attack. A lot of secrets of the Sith were lost in that millenia, so I'm not surprised if much of the lore, magic, alchemy, and general dark side techniques were lost too. And the Ancient Sith were "godlike."
Originally posted by zephiel7
Exar is a notch above Sidious but Exile and Revan are in his league and could match him shot for shot. When the three of them combine their strength, Exar will ultimately be defeated.
Now that Illustrious has shot down your ridiculous assertion that Traya could instakill Sidious, I'll ask this:
What in God's name makes you think Revan and the Exile are anywhere near the league of Exar Kun?
Then it can be argued that the Ancient Sith wouldnt neccesary be "eaten" by Nihilus, since the technique originated from them, and considering if someone like Ragnos could be eaten, it'll be a wonder why he wasnt eaten, so the conclusion can be stated that Nihilus wouldnt be able to eat most of the Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith.
The only reason that Revan would've been powerful would be due to his knowledge of the force, but considering Kun, destroyed almost all the secrets that were avaliable, between the Ancient Sith to the end of the Exar Kun war.
I also wonder why the people say that Traya could insta-kill people, i mean, Traya herself says that the Ancient Sith look like children with toys, and its also curious that even though Exar Kun only 40 years preceded them, the quote could be reffered to Kun as well.
The reason being, most of the knowledge left down from the Ancient Sith was also avaliable to Kun, he also had these Ancient Sith assisting him ie Freedon Nadd, even though he wasn't a Dark Lord, Ragnos himself states that Exar Kun will bring about the Golden Age of the Sith.
By saying this, Exar Kun would not rank with the Ancient Sith, but being crowned by such godlike Sith, he would atleast be superior to all those that followed him, considering after Kun, no other Dark Lord was "crowned" thereby it could mean none of them were "worthy" or strong enough to be crowned.
What in God's name makes you think Revan and the Exile are anywhere near the league of Exar Kun?
Revan is obviously in the league of Exar Kun.
Point one
Noob: Exar Kun can shoot huge blasts of like energy that pwnZ his opponents.
Yes yes, I have heard this rhetoric before and frankly I dont see how this makes him any more superior. His abilitiy to shoot giant blasts didn't help Exar in his fight against Ulic. Revan was also proficient in using the force to annihiliate his enemies. He was able to use force storm, which is clearly stated by the Rakatans as they and their scouting parties were annihiliated.
Point two
Noob: Exarz killz deh Vodo Bass. Like he can EmPowER is staveff.
So what? Revan defeated Darth Malak, who with Revan was the greatest lightsaber duelist of his time. Malak defeated Kavar, THE duelist of the time, and set him scurrying back home with his tail between his legs. Malak was able to control the power of the star forge. Malak was able to contend with Revan. This alone is proof that Malak AT LEAST equals a guy who can empower his staff to withstand lightsabers.
noob: Revan is sooo stupid. He was like beaten by his own apprentice.
Exar was pwned, (or was going to be) when Ulic betrayed him. Both these figures were betrayed by weaker apprentices. Criticize Revan's lack of foresight, and you Exar fans are just hitting yourselves across the head.
noob: Exar made his own type of lightsaber!
So? Yoda stuck with sigle bladed lightsaber and was one of the best damn duelists IN Star Wars. Tulak Hord, the best duelist in STAR WARS, wasn't the most original fellow either.
noob: It took thousands of Jedi to defeat Exar.
Nah. It took thousands of Jedi to scare Exar into picking the coward's path and "run away."
Yes yes, I have heard this rhetoric before and frankly I dont see how this makes him any more superior. His abilitiy to shoot giant blasts didn't help Exar in his fight against Ulic. Revan was also proficient in using the force to annihiliate his enemies. He was able to use force storm, which is clearly stated by the Rakatans as they and their scouting parties were annihiliated.
It didn't help him in his fight against Ulic because he didn't use them. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the fight, but it was a pure lightsaber fight that was interrupted shortly after it began by the spirit of Ragnos.
By that logic, Sidious' eyes didn't help him since he didn't turn his head and see Vader try to pick him up. It's ridiculous.
As for Revan's "force storm" nonsense:
For one, prove that he even used a Force attack. The Rakatans called it lightning from the sky, which could easily have been an attack from a ship.
Second, prove that it is a fraction as effective as this:
As you can see, Kun's blasts (which he can use repeatedly without apparently tiring) rip through the Sith wyrm with ease and blast holes in the temple walls. I don't think mere lightning would have been very helpful here.
So what? Revan defeated Darth Malak, who with Revan was the greatest lightsaber duelist of his time.
Prove up. I want quotes from credible sources that they're the greatest duelists.
Malak defeated Kavar, THE duelist of the time, and set him scurrying back home with his tail between his legs.
Actually, it's stated Malak lost his jaw to a Jedi. Kavar here is the most likely candidate. I like how you have no proof of the circumstances of their fight but you instead assume that Malak wtfpwns, despite the lack of evidence. Good going, fanboy 😉
Originally posted by Illustrious
Malak lost a jaw. If he didn't lose it to Kavar, chances are he lost it against an inferior warrior. Kavar was one of the top duelists in the order. Unless you can establish that it was Revan who did it, it doesn't bode well for Malak.
Vodo was a melee master and over 600 years old. Malak was an upstart who, even at the peak of his greatness, couldn't destroy the jedi order or defeat Revan and his companions. Indeed, the idea of comparing Vodo to Malak is a bit skewed. Malak, while good, was arrogant, and Vodo was able to train and defeat the likes of many generations of jedi knights, including Exar Kun.The level Vodo was at is written in stone. He was a revered Jedi master in the Freedon Nadd Uprising, Dark Lords of the Sith, and the Sith War. The proof is for the Malak supporters to argue he is at that level.
Exar was pwned, (or was going to be) when Ulic betrayed him. Both these figures were betrayed by weaker apprentices. Criticize Revan's lack of foresight, and you Exar fans are just hitting yourselves across the head.
First of all, point out which of us argued that because Revan was betrayed that makes him inferior. I'd love to know.
And how was Exar going to be defeated before Ulic betrayed him, hm?
So? Yoda stuck with sigle bladed lightsaber and was one of the best damn duelists IN Star Wars. Tulak Hord, the best duelist in STAR WARS, wasn't the most original fellow either.
Actually, I could name at least six or seven individuals who would tool Yoda in a saber fight.
And Tulak the best? According to some old bat that has never seen him fight and only stated he was the best lightsaber fighter among the ancient Sith, none of which even used lightsabers? Good call! I bet I'm the best spatula duelist of my entire University, then. I must pwn all!
One could make a better case for Kun himself being the best duelist in Star Wars.
Nah. It took thousands of Jedi to scare Exar into picking the coward's path and "run away."
So what would not have been the "coward's path" for Exar here, fanboy? What action would you have suggested to him, hm?
By the way, does he look frightened in that scan or this one? I think not:
And this is what the Jedi did:
Any more fallacious nonsense, fanboy?
Point oneNoob: Exar Kun can shoot huge blasts of like energy that pwnZ his opponents.
Yes yes, I have heard this rhetoric before and frankly I dont see how this makes him any more superior. His abilitiy to shoot giant blasts didn't help Exar in his fight against Ulic. Revan was also proficient in using the force to annihiliate his enemies. He was able to use force storm, which is clearly stated by the Rakatans as they and their scouting parties were annihiliated.
Noob: Revan usez the force to beat ze Rakatans!!!11shift-abuse!11!!
See how stupid that is? Love how you can demean people who kick your ass in a debate.
First off, the Rakatans said Revan beat them, it was never depicted how. By that logic, because Nadd said Exar Kun was great, he was.
Point twoNoob: Exarz killz deh Vodo Bass. Like he can EmPowER is staveff.
So what? Revan defeated Darth Malak, who with Revan was the greatest lightsaber duelist of his time. Malak defeated Kavar, THE duelist of the time, and set him scurrying back home with his tail between his legs. Malak was able to control the power of the star forge. Malak was able to contend with Revan. This alone is proof that Malak AT LEAST equals a guy who can empower his staff to withstand lightsabers.
I love how of all the points you have yet to counter, you pick "empowering his staff."
Couldn't beat the other arguments or what? Decided that logic was above you?
What about Vodo being the most revered and respected of all the depicted masters in the TOTJ comics (and even the Freedon Nadd Uprising)?
What about Vodo being the leader of a far more martial Jedi Order?
What about Vodo being described canonically as extremely powerful?
What about Vodo shown as having 600 years of time to perfect the Jedi teachings (which existed on Ossus).
Oh wait, clearly Malak is superior to Vodo right?
And Kavar as the duelist? How so? He's not even the top councilmember of his council. It's possible he lopped of Malak's jaw. You have no ****ing clue about the circumstances of that fight, yet you can make some bullshit judgment?
Yep, in the mind of a fanboy.
And how does those feats put him "at least equal" to Vodo? Where's the context? How does being able to beat a guy who wasn't even the most respected member of his council put him over a guy that was? How does being able to power the star forge put him on a level superior to someone who never tried? How does being able to contend with Revan compare with someone who was arguably the most revered, respected, and powerful master of the Jedi Order even before Revan was born?
Oh wait. It doesn't... you're making generalizations and conclusions that aren't supported by the facts.
Noob: Well, teh NJO Luuuuukke controlled a black hole!! He > SWU!!
noob: Revan is sooo stupid. He was like beaten by his own apprentice.Exar was pwned, (or was going to be) when Ulic betrayed him. Both these figures were betrayed by weaker apprentices. Criticize Revan's lack of foresight, and you Exar fans are just hitting yourselves across the head.
When the hell did anyone ever say that?
You're the one that tried to convince everyone (mighty unsuccessfully, I might add) that Revan was superior intellectually than Exar Kun. Yet, even you admit they suffered the same similar downfalls. Wait, so how is he intellectually superior?
Great job undermining your own point, hypocrite.
noob: Exar made his own type of lightsaber!So? Yoda stuck with sigle bladed lightsaber and was one of the best damn duelists IN Star Wars. Tulak Hord, the best duelist in STAR WARS, wasn't the most original fellow either.
Tulak Hord wasn't original?
Where was this mentioned? Where was ANYTHING ABOUT TULAK HORD MENTIONED besides by Traya?
Uhm... nowhere.
In fact, he had his holocron. And considering most Sith used Sith Swords, it's more than likely he had his own style too.
The point is that Exar Kun was smart enough and prolific enough to create his own lightsaber style that was unfamiliar with the old conventions and managed to pwn everyone he met with it.
noob: It took thousands of Jedi to defeat Exar.Nah. It took thousands of Jedi to scare Exar into picking the coward's path and "run away."
That's great. Especially considering the "coward" can still kick Revan's ass.
And...
you ignored my post.
What, decided that proving up about Traya's ability was too hard, so you decided to make thinly veiled attacks towards the "noob" that is kicking your ass in debate?
Zephiel7
as i stated, Exar Kun destroyed most of the secrets of BOTH the SITH and the JEDI, so accordingly, Revan did not have access to many secrets that are truly "godlike" powers, ie nihilus's eating/sucking the force ability, and dont say it was just his nature, true he was specialised in it, but it was derived from the technique tha the Ancient Sith used.
Exar Kun, craved knowledge though mabye not as much as Revan, he had access to Naga Sadow's invention as well as the Sith holocron and Jedi secrets he gained on Ossus before it was destroyed.
Since most of the Jedi Masters in Kun's time, had access to the knowledge on Ossus, it would be logical to assume, that the Jedi there ie; Vodo will have gained more knowledge, and though Kun didn't destroy the jedi he did cause them alot of grief, knowledge wise, so how on earth was Revan going to have the knowledge Kun did? Btw the oldest jedi in Kotor were 50-60, so they wouldnt access the forbidden knowledge ie the holocrons that contained the Jedi/Sith secrets.
As well, Revan never invented anything to name, Kun invented his unique saber style and his infamous Double bladed Lightsaber, thus, it can be assumed Kun > Revan in Lightsaber combat, why? He bested Vodo, one of the oldest Jedi Masters, whom had experience and being De Facto Ruler of the Jedi Order, he had acces to all the Jedi/Sith holocrons, however Kun toyed with Vodo until finally he killed him, in less than 10 seconds.
As stated, Kun learned much Sith alchemy as well as Sith magic, he gained various Sith and Jedi Holocrons, he was taught by Freedon Nadd. While Revan, searched far and wide for knowledge, yet though he found heaps, much of the knowledge that was avalaible 40 years ago was destroyed, thereby crushing any chance for Revan to surpass the knowledge Kun had.
Finally, The Ancient Sith, whom rarely accepted anyone with lesser power, glady embraced Kun as one of their own, Marka Ragnos The Most Powerful of the Most powerful, himself stated that Kun would bring about the Golden Age of the Sith, yet you may think it would be based on more on military victories and etc. BUT for Kun to hold such a title and to hold such a prophecy would imply that Kun had enormous power, he was the last the crowned Dark Lord of the Sith, and the last to be accepted as a true "sith".
Although this is my opinion, i do believe that with the end of Exar Kun, meant the end of the Golden Age of the Sith, meaning the end of the Ancient Sith Empire with Kun as its last successor.
On another note, its curious to note that, most of the Ancient Sith reside in korriban and other various places as spirits, yet this only extended to Kun, who ripped luke from his body 4000 years later. The question i ask is, why were Malak and Revan never became Spirits? The Sith are known for the hunger for power and revenge and if Malak and Revan are as powerful as you say, why did they never come back?
Reason: Revan and Malak were never counted nor stated as any of the Ancient Sith's equals, they never acknowledged them neither did they accept them.
The Ancient Sith under all conditions respected the powerful, thats how Ragnos ruled them for 150 years, and Kun was strong enough that he was accepted.
Conclusion : Exar Kun > Darth Revan
Its conclusive, most of the spirits we see extend to DE times, except Kun who got destroyed by luke and his academy, remember than these Ancient Sith also taught Sidious as well even if they didnt share with Sidious their secrets, if Revan had indeed become a ghost wouldn't he appear with these Dark Lords?
