yoda, sidious vs ragnos?

This is ridiculous. Why would the Ancient Sith automatically be the most powerful, DS, simply because they invented most of the techniques? Do we have any proof that Ragnos and his ilk specifically came up with them all? Because I could just as easily say that any dark Jedi or Sith Lord prior to Ragnos would crush him in a fight. It seems as if you are subscribing to the assertion that simply because they invented the techniques or simply because they are "older". In which case, neither event is true. If we are to base their power simply because they predate the current Sith and their techniques derive from the Ancient Sith lineage, then understand that it also applies to the Sith - and that Ragnos is automatically weaker than those who predate him.

And if you go for the "invented techniques" route, let it be understood that Prodigal and Lightsnake are correct in that thousands upon thousands of generations of Sith Lords have had their lifetimes to refine and improve these techniques. Technology becomes more cutting edge and more powerful given age and research (the first computer is vastly inferior to today's computers), so why couldn't Force techniques?

Originally posted by Gideon
This is ridiculous. Why would the Ancient Sith automatically be the most powerful, DS, simply because they invented most of the techniques? Do we have any proof that Ragnos and his ilk specifically came up with them all? Because I could just as easily say that any dark Jedi or Sith Lord prior to Ragnos would crush him in a fight. It seems as if you are subscribing to the assertion that simply because they invented the techniques or simply because they are "older". In which case, neither event is true. If we are to base their power simply because they predate the current Sith and their techniques derive from the Ancient Sith lineage, then understand that it also applies to the Sith - and that Ragnos is automatically weaker than those who predate him.

And if you go for the "invented techniques" route, let it be understood that Prodigal and Lightsnake are correct in that thousands upon thousands of generations of Sith Lords have had their lifetimes to refine and improve these techniques. Technology becomes more cutting edge and more powerful given age and research (the first computer is vastly inferior to today's computers), so why couldn't Force techniques? [/B]

What evidence do we have of techniques being refined? *Looks at Palpatine, Exar Kun, Nihilus...*

That and basic logic. Things improve eventually

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What evidence do we have of techniques being refined? *Looks at Palpatine, Exar Kun, Nihilus...*

That and basic logic. Things improve eventually

What did Kun and Nihilus refine? As I recall it, Nihilus did what Ragnos' scepter did, except Ragnos' scepter gave force abilities to non force sensitives. I'd say that makes his technique better than Nihilus..

When did ragnos's scepter suck the life from worlds, now? I'm, curious now....Btw, Tavion discovered it had the ability to empower others....Palpatine could do that, too.

Marka Ragnos: Descriptions on the legendary Dark Lord

By Prodigal Knight

Biography: Provided from Wookiepedia -

Marka Ragnos was a half-breed Dark Lord of the Sith that was immensly powerful, both physically and in the Force . He defeated Simus in combat , proving himself worthy of the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith.

Feared, obeyed, and admired among the Sith, he was known to have been the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith to rule the ancient Sith Empire. The details of his century-long reign are few, although his death marked the end of the golden age of the Sith Empire, despite his reluctance to continue expansion. Immediately following his funeral, a schism erupted between the leaders of the Sith, and further events led to a major war with the Galactic Republic and ultimately, because the schism was never healed, the end of their interstellar empire.

His death resulted in the rise of another Sith Lord, Naga Sadow, shortly before the Great Hyperspace War. In a twisted perversion of Force Immortality, his spirit was trapped within the confines of his tomb in the Valley of the Dark Lords on Korriban, long after his death.

About one millennium after his death, Marka's spirit was summoned from the grave using a pair of Sith talismans and crowned Exar Kun as the new Dark Lord, and Ulic Qel-Droma as Kun's apprentice, all in an attempt to restore the lost empire of a thousand years prior. The Great Sith War devastated the galaxy once again, but the Sith Empire was not restored.

Ragnos's spirit dwelt in his tomb until once again returning from beyond the grave, this time summoned by a Sith cult known as the Disciples of Ragnos whose leader was Tavion Axmis, Desann's student.

Tavion used an ancient scepter made by Ragnos to drain residual Force energy and use it to empower her followers. She then planned to use the collected energy to resurrect Ragnos. When Jaden Korr entered the tomb, intending to stop Tavion, she managed to resurrect Ragnos by allowing his spirit to possess her body, but was nevertheless defeated by Jaden. Ragnos's ghost was forced back into his sarcophagus, screaming out a dark promise that he would return.

Marka Ragnos didn't wield a lightsaber, the common weapon of the Sith Lords and the Jedi Knights. He wielded a Sith sword, consisting of a metal blade enhanced by Sith sorcery, a weapon of the primitive Sith race. He could hide the sword inside his scepter. Apparently only he knew of its hiding place, as Tavion did not draw it until she was possessed, despite its power.

Extra Descriptions # 1: Provided from the Explore the Chronicles of the Old Republic by SW Databank -

Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS. The ruler's death leads to a power vacuum, and two leaders emerge at Ragnos' grave on the mausoleum planet of Korriban.

Extra Descriptions # 2: TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith written by Kevin Anderson on SW Databank -

The battle is only stopped by the apperance of the spirit of Marka Ragnos, the former Dark Lord of the Sith. Ragnos speaks, reminding them of their past and telling them that the future of the Sith Empire hangs in the balance of who rules the Empire next: the Empire will either thrive or it will lost. Ragnos passes into the Dark Side of the Force, with the ripples in the Force from his passing so strong, they awaken Odan-Urr from his dreams, light years away in Cinnagar .

Importance of this:

Marka Ragnos is not the strongest Sith Lord. That rank, as of right now, belongs to Darth Sidious. However, he is the strongest Ancient Sith in existence. Through him, the Sith Empire prospered. With his death, they fell.

However, does this mean Marka Ragnos is the 2nd most powerful Sith Lord? Well with future Sith Lords who were able to master the teachings of Ragnos and his Golden Age of Sith to a very high extremity, such as Revan and Bane, we cannot say Ragnos is the 2nd most powerful.

One thing can be determined though. Ragnos is one of THE most powerful Sith Lords ever.

i disagree i find it true that Ragnos is the most powerfull Starwars Chariter in egzistance

Originally posted by Lee-San28
i disagree i find it true that Ragnos is the most powerfull Starwars Chariter in egzistance

It's not true, sadly.

He's not the strongest. He's powerful, but people like Revan could kill him.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
He's not the strongest. He's powerful, but people like Revan could kill him.

Your opinion becomes irrelevant when you try to pass it off as a fact.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Your opinion becomes irrelevant when you try to pass it off as a fact.

I don't think that someone in your position ought to be dishing this bit of advice out to others, DS. Prodigal is very right. A lot of your logic is flawed. That the Ancient Sith created some dark side techniques doesn't mean that they have mastered them to a degree that their descendants can't. Thousands and thousands of years of various Sith Lords studying the Force would yield far more results than any single Sith Lord could in his lifetime. If we are to go by your logic, however, then any Sith Lord prior to Ragnos is automatically stronger than him, since the quote you provided has not been proven to encompass the entirety of the dark side Force users and Sith Lords prior to him.

Originally posted by Lee-San28
i disagree i find it true that Ragnos is the most powerfull Starwars Chariter in egzistance

That would be Luke. Ragnos has shown nothing. What are the sources for those quotes?

And, really, get serious, "egzistance"? disgust

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't think that someone in your position ought to be dishing this bit of advice out to others, DS. Prodigal is very right. A lot of your logic is flawed. That the Ancient Sith created some dark side techniques doesn't mean that they have mastered them to a degree that their descendants can't. Thousands and thousands of years of various Sith Lords studying the Force would yield far more results than any single Sith Lord could in his lifetime. If we are to go by your logic, however, then any Sith Lord prior to Ragnos is automatically stronger than him, since the quote you provided has not been proven to encompass the entirety of the dark side Force users and Sith Lords prior to him. [/B]

It doesn't mean that they can master them to the point that there descendants can't, but we've no evidence that they have, other than Sidious, so while you assume my logic is flawed, it seems to kind of work with reality until we have another case. And your logic is just as flawed stating that time=more power. Because you see, you say that all of these sith have had thousands of years to refine techniques but do you know what REALLY has happened in the SW universe? Every sith who has yearned for ultimate power, has looked to the teachings of the ancient sith. Over all 5,000 years. So everytime someone new wants to gain power, he learns from them and that's it. Then someone ELSE comes along. So my logic seems to make a LOT of sense here, because yours sure as hell doesn't. Refining the techniques would mean they would learn from each other and from each other's mistakes in the past 5,000 years, when instead they all look to the same ancient sith teachings and go from there. So when they constantly start over, the ancients created the techniques and more than likely mastered them. And again we have had many arguments about this, Ragnos is the greatest and most powerful ancient sith. Your argument is flawed because there would no need to call him "The most powerful", or even "The most powerful of the most powerful", if he was the most powerful of that era because by definition, a DLOTS is the most powerful of the sith. Now when they say "most powerful of the most powerful", that means the most powerful of the ancient sith, that means from 6900 BBY to 5000 BBY. I don't understand why the anti ancient sith nonsense gets in the way of Logic.

No, DS. You still have yet to provide evidence that Ragnos's power transcends that of "any Sith Lord or dark side user" prior to him. You base your position on Ragnos based on a single quote and that quote mentions nothing about anything prior. That applied only for his time, and you can't assume otherwise.

Once again, the time utilized by all the Sith after Ragnos and up 'til Sidious by far opens more options for improvement than any of the Ancient Sith's own. Again, you assume that nothing has improved with the passage of time which is absurd - considering how, according to Palpatine, Plagueis mastered an ability that was unheard of prior. So, new techniques were invented and Revan's knowledge apparently transcended the entire library on Korriban which is obviously from the Ancient Sith lineage as well.

You are subscribing the ridiculous notion that simply because these arts and techniques originated with the Ancient Sith that they must obviously have a superior mastery of the dark side than anybody. I suppose the guy who invented the computer has a greater mastery of technology than the scientists and technicians of today? We've had the time and resources to improve technology, so it is very odd to assume that the Force doesn't apply.

And as for the "anti-Ancient Sith" nonsense, I'd like to point out that you're calling a guy who has never been featured alive and only has second-hand accounts of power as "the number two most powerful Sith ever". That reeks of a strong "pro-Ancient Sith" argument coming from you, and I'm about as much an anti-Ancient Sith person as you are a pro-Ancient Sith person.

Especially when you consider that we've had more hype about Revan and his powers than we have from Ragnos. So, Revan kicks Ragnos's ass in terms of "second hand power accounts".

Didnt KJA said that exar kun > ragnos? And revan is pretty much as powerful as kun is, and POD even made naga revans equal

But one thing to clear up, Luke knew ragnos was powerful and he indirectly stated he would not be able to face him alone. Plat JKA to find out

Originally posted by Gideon
No, DS. You still have yet to provide evidence that Ragnos's power transcends that of "any Sith Lord or dark side user" prior to him. You base your position on Ragnos based on a single quote and that quote mentions nothing about anything prior. That applied only for his time, and you can't assume otherwise.

Once again, the time utilized by all the Sith after Ragnos and up 'til Sidious by far opens more options for improvement than any of the Ancient Sith's own. Again, you assume that nothing has improved with the passage of time which is absurd - considering how, according to Palpatine, Plagueis mastered an ability that was unheard of prior. So, new techniques were invented and Revan's knowledge apparently transcended the entire library on Korriban which is obviously from the Ancient Sith lineage as well.

You are subscribing the ridiculous notion that simply because these arts and techniques originated with the Ancient Sith that they must obviously have a superior mastery of the dark side than anybody. I suppose the guy who invented the computer has a greater mastery of technology than the scientists and technicians of today? We've had the time and resources to improve technology, so it is very odd to assume that the Force doesn't apply.

And as for the "anti-Ancient Sith" nonsense, I'd like to point out that you're calling a guy who has never been featured alive and only has second-hand accounts of power as "the number two most powerful Sith ever". That reeks of a strong "pro-Ancient Sith" argument coming from you, and I'm about as much an anti-Ancient Sith person as you are a pro-Ancient Sith person.

Especially when you consider that we've had more hype about Revan and his powers than we have from Ragnos. So, Revan kicks Ragnos's ass in terms of "second hand power accounts". [/B]

Yes, according to you, more sources=more power. Except Revan studied these techniques for what, 2-3 years before being turned into a Jedi again? And this surpasses Ragnos' 150 year reign over the ancient sith and the study and creation of techniques? Yea you're right, you are anti ancient sith.

Yes, according to you, more sources=more power. Except Revan studied these techniques for what, 2-3 years before being turned into a Jedi again? And this surpasses Ragnos' 150 year reign over the ancient sith and the study and creation of techniques? Yea you're right, you are anti ancient sith.

So what, more time does NOT = more power this has been proved time and time again in Star Wars, Luke defeated Vader, Vader having 30 or so years of experience with the force, Luke having a couple years with months of actual training. Exar defeated Vodo, while a padawan, while Vodo was 600 years old(far surpassing Ragnos) Sidious was a tie in power with Yoda, Sidious being around 60, Yoda being around 800. Sidious was more powerful then Dooku even though Dooku was 20 years his senior. The list goes on and on of some young powerful Jedi/Sith, destroying and older more experienced master.

If Revan even knew ONE of the ancient Sith power and he was (which he is) exponentially more powerful in the force, then he'd wipe his ass with Ragnos. Big deal they made all these powers, they were probably too weak by themselves for them to make a difference in battle, hence why they use all these items to augment there power (Gauntlets, Amulets, Specters, Ships, Chambers, Crystals)

All logic points to the Ancients being not so hot in the force without the aid of there items, look at Naga Sadow, the second most powerful ancient Sith in his ONE stunning show of force power WITHOUT the aid of some item he lobs one brick at such pathetic speeds that it fails to draw any reasonable amount of blood, or kill/knock him out.

Want a real logical deduction, they use these items to compensate for there overall shitty connection to the force. And they wouldn't last against someone (like Revan) who has there knowledge AND a godly force connection.

All logic points to the Ancients being not so hot in the force without the aid of there items, look at Naga Sadow, the second most powerful ancient Sith in his ONE stunning show of force power WITHOUT the aid of some item he lobs one brick at such pathetic speeds that it fails to draw any reasonable amount of blood, or kill/knock him out.

Want a real logical deduction, they use these items to compensate for there overall shitty connection to the force. And they wouldn't last against someone (like Revan) who has there knowledge AND a godly force connection. [/B]

Shitty connection? Wow, what a logical and compelling argument. I guess you haven't read Nai's theory on the ancient sith, which makes sense but I won't use it in this debate because you don't have much of an argument. Creating amulets to channel and amplify force energy obviously takes some skill because we don't see anyone after them doing it, because they DONT have the knowledge. And again, since nobody did what they did without the amulets, there's no real argument here is there.

They used the amulets to channel and amplify their power, that suddenly makes them weak?

Yup.

I don't see anybody doing what they did WITHOUT the amulets.

I don't see them doing what they did without the amulets.

And they created the ancient sith techniques so they are hot in the force, whether you like it not.

So...because they created something doesn't mean they could use it to the same affect that a more powerful force user could.

OMG He threw only a brick he MUST suck.

Pretty much considering all the destructive unfathomable power your trying to attribute them to.

Again, has it ever occured to you that the reason they didn't go around using their ridiculous powers is because they also built up defenses for them?

Oh yes such power defensive that can't even block one small brick come on 🙄

Shitty connection? Wow, what a logical and compelling argument. I guess you haven't read Nai's theory on the ancient sith,

Do I care? Referencing anther USER does not make your argument correct, why should I care what some other USER thinks or there "logical theories" on Star Wars.

which makes sense but I won't use it in this debate because you don't have much of an argument.

Really you do? "Liek they created the powers so ahh they must be more powerful!" and "Read Nai's theory"

Creating amulets to channel and amplify force energy obviously takes some skill because we don't see anyone after them doing it, because they DONT have the knowledge.

And that proves your point how? So because they can create tools of the the dark side that means that there FORCE connection is strong 🙄

And again, since nobody did what they did without the amulets, there's no real argument here is there.

So because they did a feat that even THEY couldn't do without an amulet/specter/ship, because someone else from a anther era can't duplicate the Ancients are stronger? LOL.

Nihlius draining a planet trumps Ragnos specter.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yup.

I don't see them doing what they did without the amulets.

So...because they created something doesn't mean they could use it to the same affect that a more powerful force user could.

Pretty much considering all the destructive unfathomable power your trying to attribute them to.

Oh yes such power defensive that can't even block one small brick come on 🙄

Do I care? Referencing anther USER does not make your argument correct, why should I care what some other USER thinks or there "logical theories" on Star Wars.

Really you do? "Liek they created the powers so ahh they must be more powerful!" and "Read Nai's theory"

And that proves your point how? So because they can create tools of the the dark side that means that there FORCE connection is strong 🙄

So because they did a feat that even THEY couldn't do without an amulet/specter/ship, because someone else from a anther era can't duplicate the Ancients are stronger? LOL.

Nihlius draining a planet trumps Ragnos specter. [/B]

I guess bigboy missed the entire concept of KOTOR 2. Here's a pop quiz, where did Nihilus learn his technique? And where was the technique derived from? I'll let you figure this one out.