The knowledge of God almost everywhere. It's innate. So Atheist are people saying there is no God. So seriously they were thinking of it.knowledge of someone believing in a god and knowledge of god is two totally different things.
Its as simple as if you think whether the Cubs gonna win the world series or not, those who say yes believe they will (believers/faithful) those who say maybe but they dont know (agnostics) and those who say no they wont(atheist).
All of them thought about it but came up with different stands on the matter.
And that is the key issue here, to take a stand you have to have thought about the matter if not you are just a copy cat tag along sorry assed dork
Originally posted by joesha28
I read your post Wesker...nice catch on the spelling, good job.
I wasn't looking for it so much as it was glaringly obvious.
You see everyone believe in something. Atheist cannot prove there is no God. Faith itself is unavoidable, even if you choose to believe in yourself.
I've never tried to prove atheisism. And faith is not "unavoidable" any more than choosing to buy a red car is "unavoidable". Don't deal in absolutes unless you have excellent reasoning behind it. From what I see, you don't. Throwing out statements like "faith is unavoidable" doesn't make it so. And it certainly doesn't sway the opposition.
The scientific method is limited to that is measurable and repeatable. By definition, it cannot speak to issues of ultimate origin, meaning/purpose of life or morality. Science by itself offer moral guidance or values to govern our lives. All science can do is show us natural law works, while telling us nothing of it's origins.
Indeed, and science doesn't proclaim to have, 100 per cent, the absolute origin of creation. Religion does. However, while science may not be able to explain that phenominon with current technology, there is the possiblity that more conclusive evidence can be found in the future. It may not happen at all, sure, but that doesn't mean it can't ever happen, period. Improbable and impossible aren't the same thing. Likewise, the point of the debate is that religion claims things to be true without providing the logos for it, or even evidence. It just says so and you have to believe. The idea of religion and faith is because of lack of proof and evidence. Having faith itself is not knowing the real answer.
However, I fail to see why you as a religious advocate feel the need to piss and moan at science. Scientific advances create the modern marvels you use. Faith apparently creates a false sense of security, narrow-mindedness towards other views, and religious tension and wars from the most part, but that's really undercutting the good points faith offers. Yet when I do battle with you religious advocates, you all come out of the gate swinging at scientific principles which... ahem... help explain and develop the computer you're using!
Really, I don't trust anyone who feels they have to validate their faith on an online forum; that shows a serious insecurity right there, and a need to impress one's views on another. Faith and beliefs are subjective and relative; they differ slightly or radically from one person to the next. If you were truly secure in your faith, you wouldn't feel the need to engage in this debate and if you truly were a disciple of Christ's teachings, you wouldn't have stooped to petty insults and questioned my lack of faith.
The theory of evolution of life will not make God unnecessary.
But that doesn't make the Judeo-Christian God neccessarily true either. What's your point? Evolution doesn't exclude God from existing; rather, it tries to find a natural explanation for something without leaping to the supernatural divine all mighty intanggible unknowable creator. Evolution might be wrong. It might be right and there still be a God. Either way, scientists are not proclaiming theirs to be ultimate truth. Religious groups do. Therein is the difference. Realize that already.
Even you assume that someday scientists will find missing links to confirm that life appeared and developed gradually over long periods of time, the laws of probability would still show the need of a Creator.
No, it's an unsubstantied assumption that the universe NEEDS a creator.
The Universe is complex and immense, it did not just happen.
More religious dealing in absolutes without a shred of proof. You do realize that just because you say it with conviction, it isn't neccessarily so, right? New York City is so complex, it would take more than a warehouse of supercomputers and then some to fully render the city in 3D. That's not counting adding other properties to the elements within the city, or adding weather, etc. Yet would anyone be fooled into thinking New York City has one intelligent creator? No. That's ridiculous. The idea of irreducibly complex doesn't pan out.
Many Evolutionist Scientists are compelled to acknowledge the possibility or even likelihood of an intelligent Designer.
No, they're not. Evolution is the idea of life developing WITHOUT such a designer. This makes about as much sense as claiming Newton is compelled to acknowledge the idea that gravity doesn't exist on earth.
Israel's Exodus from Egypt and those miracles has been witness by million of Jews and Egyptians.
According to what? The Bible? One source? Please. Provide outside sources of this Exodus, and provide the credibility of all the sources. The Bible is getting a bit old as the one-stop shop for all your answers.
The God of the Christian Bible rest His case on events witness in real time and locations. It you really doubt those claims..you could visit those places to check out the evidence for yourself.
No, you should show me the evidence. You're making the assertion here, not me. You took the religious stance. Prove up.
The country Israel's future was pre-written...Moses and the other prophets of the bible predicted Israel's unparalleled sufferings and dispersion throughout the world. I believe you are in touch with the current affairs.
Wow, predicting conflict in the Middle East? Those prophets powers are mighty! Please. And if Israel's future is pre-written, this excludes the idea of free will, and thus all that happens in the world is God's will. Therefore, God is not all good, and Christianity is self contradictory AGAIN.
There are very few atheist...who seriously thought about life and concluded that there is no God.
Can you prove this, or did you pull this out of your ass?
There are more agnostics, thinking people who say "I don't know if there is a God". "Have you seen God? Have you felt God? Than how do you know there is a God?" are your questions. It's like asking "Have you seen your brains? Have you felt your brains? Than how do you know there is a brains?". You'll probably go "Bullshit Joesha!! Science has shown that man has brains". True i would say, but it took someone else to show a Man his own brains. We are talking the Most Powerful Being in this Universe. It takes only Himself to reveal Himself.
Yeah, I'm sure God showed us brains, man. I'm really sure. It wasn't early civilizations experimenting with proto-medical treatments; it had to be God. Hey, I'm sure science is all about what we can see and feel and uses absolutely NO inferences, huh? You would know, with your incredible grasp of science.
Another thing Wesker, i'm not taking this as a battle of our wits. But rather a battle of your soul and those you are reading our debate(those on your side at least). You don know the real me...neither do i know the real you. But on the day of Judgement we will know each other and than i pray that we would enter the Kingdom of Heaven together.I know you would say "Bullshit" but i would say Amen....
While I appreciate your late hour brotherly love appeal, the point is you've come to me with a difference in ideas. I've made points that you've failed to address, even though it weakens your position to ignore them. I've pointed out rational arguments, empirical problems, and inference methods... Hell, I've broken down your stance with a definition. You come back at me with religious doublespeak. That's just sad. You're not in touch with this discussion at all, and I might as well be speaking to a bot on AIM. If heaven's filled to the brim with people like that, I don't want to go. The unexamined life isn't worth living, and yours is apparently unexamined.
"what merit would there be in confessing a truth so self evident?"
I've always been baffled by the incessant and completely uninspired rants that surge up when the question of believing in God comes around. Normally I'd say, what more proof do you need exactly being in the dire, mortal, very much limited packages that we are bound in?
But upon reading Cervantes, his idea about faith and truth has taken the words out of my mouth so eloquently.😊
Sir Knight, he said "we do not know who this beauteous lady is of whom you speak. Show her to us,and if she is as beautiful as you say, then we will right willingly and without any compulsion confess the truth as you have asked of us."
"If I were to show her to you," replied Don Quixote, "what merit would there be in confessing a truth so self-evident? The important thing is for you, without seeing her, to believe, confess, affirm, swear, and defend that truth."
Don Quixiote ,Miguel De Cervantes.
Re: "what merit would there be in confessing a truth so self evident?"
Originally posted by Punkyhermy
I've always been baffled by the incessant and completely uninspired rants that surge up when the question of believing in God comes around. Normally I'd say, what more proof do you need exactly being in the dire, mortal, very much limited packages that we are bound in?
I know if I was to consider believing the very fact we are bound in such " dire, mortal, very much limited packages" would make me question it some more. Because that wouldn't exactly instil me with confidence on the front of a benevolant, all loving God.
But it is nice to see someone who has read Don Quixiote. I can't believe more people haven't in this day and age.
Re: "what merit would there be in confessing a truth so self evident?"
Originally posted by Punkyhermy
I've always been baffled by the incessant and completely uninspired rants that surge up when the question of believing in God comes around. Normally I'd say, what more proof do you need exactly being in the dire, mortal, very much limited packages that we are bound in?But upon reading Cervantes, his idea about faith and truth has taken the words out of my mouth so eloquently.😊
Sir Knight, he said "we do not know who this beauteous lady is of whom you speak. Show her to us,and if she is as beautiful as you say, then we will right willingly and without any compulsion confess the truth as you have asked of us."
"If I were to show her to you," replied Don Quixote, "what merit would there be in confessing a truth so self-evident? The important thing is for you, without seeing her, to believe, confess, affirm, swear, and defend that truth."
[B]Don Quixiote
,Miguel De Cervantes. [/B]
Hmmm..very interesing. I've never actually read(the story) myself. I must admit that last quote from De Cervantes' work sounds very reminiscent(at least in the message that it conveys) of the latter portion of the Lazurus and Rich Man parable.
You be the judge:
Luke 16 27:31
"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
You command me to prove to you my god is real? You are not my master, only they are my master, I am not bound to do anything you say. You are lucky if I even show you kindness or compassion..
And think about that the next time you want to rant about how if God were real He'd prove Himself unto us. We are beneath God. God has no obligation to do anything you say. It doesn't matter what you think. You can't even command a fellow human being, much less the near omnimpetant God. You read comic books, would Galactus need to prove to you that he is good and that he is real? Hell no. Galactus would ignore your imputent presence untill it served his interests, or he desired to eat your planet.
The same applies to God. (And The Devil for that matter..)
Originally posted by Green ArrowWas it your mummy, daddy or priest that told you that?
You command me to prove to you my god is real? You are not my master, only they are my master, I am not bound to do anything you say. You are lucky if I even show you kindness or compassion..And think about that the next time you want to rant about how if God were real He'd prove Himself unto us. We are beneath God. God has no obligation to do anything you say. It doesn't matter what you think. You can't even command a fellow human being, much less the near omnimpetant God. You read comic books, would Galactus need to prove to you that he is good and that he is real? Hell no. Galactus would ignore your imputent presence untill it served his interests, or he desired to eat your planet.
The same applies to God. (And The Devil for that matter..)