Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're ignorant. Go and ask a WWII vet just how easy it is to charge across 90 feet of ground while being hammered at from 100 automatic weapons? Now compound this with running forward across MORE than 90 feet (Because while the effective maximun range is 90 feet, the effective damage range of the blaster is more than the length of the colliseum. And when you fire 500 rounds inside of a second, accuracy isn't exactly neccessary) while trying to block erratic saturation fire with a glowstick while not hacking up the jedi next to you.
Janus, how do you know if the effective damage range of the rifle is more then 90 feet? Seeing as the gun is a very outdated by PT times and that in the game, even when an enemy is less then 50 feet away you still often miss, it's very unlikely that this gun has a damage range of over 1,000 feet(the length of the arena).
And if accuracy isn't a problem, this what is the difference between HK droids and Federation Battle droids? Listen to what Nai stated on the PT Jedi during his arguments for PT Jedi a while back.
Now have a look at the Battle of Geonosis (the arena fight). Same situation: 200 Jedi vs thousands droids. Now the droids are equipped with weapons that fire quite fast (normal battle droids 3 bolts per second, Super Battle Droids around 6 bolts and the Droidekas fireing 4 weapons at once with 8 or 12 bolts per second) and some of them even have shields (Droidekas) - and they are aided by Geonosians with some heavy weapons.
Now if you have a look at the "background" action in the arena scenes you can see some Jedi getting outnumbered 5+ on 1 (being surrounded) and still winning quite easily against their opponents.
Why would the Jedi hit the people next to them in this case? They didn't in the charge you showed earler. We also saw none of them die in that first charge against a group of droids that easily outnumbers the HK droids 5 - 1. Since accuracy doesn't matter until they get within 28m there really isn't very much difference between the two scenario's.
Furthermore, when so many rounds do fly towards the Jedi there will also be many rounds flying back towards the Hk droids. The Jedi don't have to aim, they will just hit them because of the amount of deflected bolts.
Obviously you don't give the PT Jedi enough credit.
Originally posted by Wesker
Oh, and then there's the bullshit about it taking FOUR SECONDS to cross the colliseum. Wow. Wishful thinking, much? Please. That's a murderhole right there. Take a look at this:This animal is the size of a car (10 feet in length or more easily).
Look again at the colliseum:
That's well over a few hundred car lengths, Glentract. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and say the animal was 10 feet across and the colliseum floor was only 100 carlengths, it would still be 1,000 feet at it's smallest, to cross inside of by your estimate FOUR SECONDS while under heavy fire from 500 rounds... per trigger squeeze.
You need to stop drinking. You're too young.
Stop speed reading. I said that it would take 4 seconds between when they get within firing range of the droids and when they get to the droids themselves. Not the entire arena.
Another quote from Nai.
Now we see Qui-Gon manipulating Watto's chance cube and all kinds of Jedi disabling droids through the force (what seemed like a force push in the movies – the TPM novel states that they disable the droids by destroying circuits and they are able to do this quite effortless - which would be more fitting since the droids aren't damaged from the outside but never get up again "force pushed" once).
The important part is the force push part. Apparently the PT Jedi can easily disable droids with what appears to be a force push. Can you say HK droids into junk piles?
There is no reason for the Jedi to not be able to defeat the droids.
Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
You're calling George Lucas a dip now? But you made fun of Glentract for saying George Lucas was wrong! I feel a sig coming on!
Apparently you don't get it. GL doesn't give an exact number, and the AOTC novelisation, the manuals, and every EU source that talks about the Battle of Geonosis and the battle in the arena gives a figure of 200-212 jedi. In this case you've taken a glib statement from GL and made it into a concise fact. that's called taking it out of context.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, how do you know if the effective damage range of the rifle is more then 90 feet?
Glentract, its time you learned something about firearms:
Maximum range is the absolute range a bullet can go (on average). For example, the maximum range of an M16A2 is 3,600 meters.
Maximum effective range is how far a bullet can go before it starts to experience bullet drop and/or wind distortion. The maximum effective range of an M16A2 is 550 meters (point target) and 800 meters (area target).
The distances listed on the Mandalorian repeaters in game are clearly listed as maximum effective range, and I'm going to wager that's area target, because aiming for point is implied in the sniping feat itself. Considering that in this case the maximum range of the weapon is 4.5 times the maximum effective area target range, we could assume that the Mandalorian repeater's maximum range would be 128 meters.
Of course, that's assuming it were a ballistic weapon. It's not. It does not experience bullet drop, and does not experience wind. It only burns out once something has connected and absorbed its concussive energy. So there's no telling how far a blaster bolt can go before it stops moving. Theoretically, it could go the entire length of the colliseum. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd entertain it. I don't think you do.
Seeing as the gun is a very outdated by PT times and that in the game,
Is it? Same basic principles. Hell, rifles haven't changed in principle in over a hundred years. If anything, older rifles had LONGER maximum ranges. There's nothing to suggest that it is so "outdated" that it can't function for the purpose of this debate.
even when an enemy is less then 50 feet away you still often miss,
Game mechanics now? Cute. You also miss with a vibroblade at two feet. Is it outdated? zomG!
it's very unlikely that this gun has a damage range of over 1,000 feet(the length of the arena).
Actually, it's VERY possible that it does, as I've pointed out above. Welcome to the world of firearms, Glentract.
And if accuracy isn't a problem, this what is the difference between HK droids and Federation Battle droids?
HK 47 is a sophisticated and unique assassin droid created by Darth Revan for the purpose of kicking righteous ass. Fed droids are mindless and pathetic drones that are only harmful when they accidentally shoot in the right direction.
Listen to what Nai stated on the PT Jedi during his arguments for PT Jedi a while back.Now have a look at the Battle of Geonosis (the arena fight). Same situation: 200 Jedi vs thousands droids. Now the droids are equipped with weapons that fire quite fast (normal battle droids 3 bolts per second, Super Battle Droids around 6 bolts and the Droidekas fireing 4 weapons at once with 8 or 12 bolts per second) and some of them even have shields (Droidekas) - and they are aided by Geonosians with some heavy weapons.
Now if you have a look at the "background" action in the arena scenes you can see some Jedi getting outnumbered 5+ on 1 (being surrounded) and still winning quite easily against their opponents.
You mean Nai's unproven hypothesis? Are you basing your argument on his old theory? Please. For one, his firing rate figures are contradicted by the movies themselves, including the animation I provided. Normal battle droids do not fire that fast. They have regular carbines. And the idea of "thousands of droids" is a bit inaccurate, considering that there was a war waging on outside of the arena and what we saw in the movie was only a small portion of the Federation forces in that arena. And again, none of those droids compare with an HK armed with a Mandalorian repeater.
Why would the Jedi hit the people next to them in this case? They didn't in the charge you showed earler. We also saw none of them die in that first charge against a group of droids that easily outnumbers the HK droids 5 - 1. Since accuracy doesn't matter until they get within 28m there really isn't very much difference between the two scenario's.
No, you're wrong. HK's with the repeaters have a MUCH higher degree of discipline and tactical training, and they have a weapon that pumps out a hell of a lot of ammo in very little time. Also, btw... you DO know that the Mandalorian Repeater has a holographic pop up aiming device, right? Watch it next time you play. And also in this case, the HK droids are coming from one direction, able to fall into effective formation. They won't be bumbling about like morons, firing off shots like drunkards unlike Fed droids. Not the same fight.
Furthermore, when so many rounds do fly towards the Jedi there will also be many rounds flying back towards the Hk droids. The Jedi don't have to aim, they will just hit them because of the amount of deflected bolts.
And they will be able to easily hit back at the 100 HK droids? You're missing the point; for each volley, jedi are going down. That's less and less bolts deflected back. Which means that the chances of more lucky deflections drops drastically. But the odds of hitting back across an arena well over 1000 feet (Likely closer to 2500 if I may take a guess based on the image) man-sized droids is pretty damn poor. And if the droids are equipped with personal droid shields, it won't even hurt the damn thing. Ineffective riposte.
Obviously you don't give the PT Jedi enough credit.
It's stated clearly in Shatterpoint and visible in the movies that the jedi lost their asses because of the inferior Niman and because of poor military planning and organization. Likewise, in this scenario they are up against very dangerous opponents with heavy weaponry and the advantage of effective placement. You obviously underestimate proper tactics versus numbers.
Stop speed reading. I said that it would take 4 seconds between when they get within firing range of the droids and when they get to the droids themselves. Not the entire arena. [.quote]I pointed out that the maximum range of the weapons would take MORE than 4 seconds to speed across, especially with the whole... you know... ONSLAUGHT going on. Your estimate is ridiculously improper for the fight.
[quote]
Another quote from Nai.Now we see Qui-Gon manipulating Watto's chance cube and all kinds of Jedi disabling droids through the force (what seemed like a force push in the movies – the TPM novel states that they disable the droids by destroying circuits and they are able to do this quite effortless - which would be more fitting since the droids aren't damaged from the outside but never get up again "force pushed" once).
The important part is the force push part. Apparently the PT Jedi can easily disable droids with what appears to be a force push. Can you say HK droids into junk piles?
Again, Nai's theory does not equal validated fact. And you're missing something here... any instances where the droids where force pushed it was VERY close. We're talking 10 meters and under if that, and they had to stop defending and slashing to do it. I wouldn't call that "HK droids into junk piles", Glentract. But I might call your accessment "poor".
There is no reason for the Jedi to not be able to defeat the droids.
The jedi are ****ed.
Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Hmm I think the text on my sig will be,Warning: Wesker thinks AotC book is a better source of information than George Lucas himself.
And mine ill be "Warning: Guy LeDouche is a moron. He apparently thinks when Gl says a random, none specific number it's absolute fact."
Stfu, kid.
Originally posted by Wesker
Glentract, its time you learned something about firearms:Maximum range is the absolute range a bullet can go (on average). For example, the maximum range of an M16A2 is 3,600 meters.
Maximum effective range is how far a bullet can go before it starts to experience bullet drop and/or wind distortion. The maximum effective range of an M16A2 is 550 meters (point target) and 800 meters (area target).
The distances listed on the Mandalorian repeaters in game are clearly listed as maximum effective range, and I'm going to wager that's area target, because aiming for point is implied in the sniping feat itself. Considering that in this case the maximum range of the weapon is 4.5 times the maximum effective area target range, we could assume that the Mandalorian repeater's maximum range would be 128 meters.
Of course, that's assuming it were a ballistic weapon. It's not. It does not experience bullet drop, and does not experience wind. It only burns out once something has connected and absorbed its concussive energy. So there's no telling how far a blaster bolt can go before it stops moving. Theoretically, it could go the entire length of the colliseum. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd entertain it. I don't think you do.
Great argument, but flawed in the end, as I do have evidence to the contrary. The Essential Guide to Weapons puts the maximum range of the T-21 at 300 meters and the maximum effective range at 150 meters. Apparently the difference is not as great for blasters as it is for bullets.
That implies that the maximum range of the Mandalorian gun is 56 meters, far from your porjected 128 meters.
Originally posted by Wesker
Is it? Same basic principles. Hell, rifles haven't changed in principle in over a hundred years. If anything, older rifles had LONGER maximum ranges. There's nothing to suggest that it is so "outdated" that it can't function for the purpose of this debate.
Are you telling me that you don't think rifles will change in the next 4,000 years? And name one old rifle that had greater range then an M16 with sources to prove it.
Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, it's VERY possible that it does, as I've pointed out above. Welcome to the world of firearms, Glentract.
Proven wrong above.
Originally posted by Wesker
HK 47 is a sophisticated and unique assassin droid created by Darth Revan for the purpose of kicking righteous ass. Fed droids are mindless and pathetic drones that are only harmful when they accidentally shoot in the right direction.
The first model, yes, mindless drone. Not the Super battle droids though. Super Battle droids are capable of firing up to six rounds per second and there were far more then a hundred of those at Geonosis. Whi didn't the Jedi lose to those there? Also note that at Geonosis there were destroyer droids which fire much faster then these HK droids can and those numbered at least 20 if I remember correctly, but I can't check because I can't find my ep2 copy.
Originally posted by Wesker
You mean Nai's unproven hypothesis? Are you basing your argument on his old theory? Please. For one, his firing rate figures are contradicted by the movies themselves, including the animation I provided. Normal battle droids do not fire that fast. They have regular carbines. And the idea of "thousands of droids" is a bit inaccurate, considering that there was a war waging on outside of the arena and what we saw in the movie was only a small portion of the Federation forces in that arena. And again, none of those droids compare with an HK armed with a Mandalorian repeater.
Even if we only saw 1% of the Federation force in the arena thats 10,000 droids as it was stated that there were a million droids at Geonosis.
Again, Super Battle droids numbered at least a hundred that attacked the Jedi. These fire faster then Mandalorian repeaters and have a very high accuracy. That's also not counting the many Destroyer Droids and heavy weapons that the Geonosians used.
Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're wrong. HK's with the repeaters have a MUCH higher degree of discipline and tactical training, and they have a weapon that pumps out a hell of a lot of ammo in very little time. Also, btw... you DO know that the Mandalorian Repeater has a holographic pop up aiming device, right? Watch it next time you play. And also in this case, the HK droids are coming from one direction, able to fall into effective formation. They won't be bumbling about like morons, firing off shots like drunkards unlike Fed droids. Not the same fight.
The Super Battle droids fought on par with anything we've seen from an HK droid. They were accurate, fire as fast as HK droids, and have better range. There were more Super Battle Droids at Geonosis then there are HK droids in this thread and the Hk droids don't have all the help that the Super Battle Droids at Geonosis had.
Originally posted by Wesker
And they will be able to easily hit back at the 100 HK droids? You're missing the point; for each volley, jedi are going down. That's less and less bolts deflected back. Which means that the chances of more lucky deflections drops drastically. But the odds of hitting back across an arena well over 1000 feet (Likely closer to 2500 if I may take a guess based on the image) man-sized droids is pretty damn poor. And if the droids are equipped with personal droid shields, it won't even hurt the damn thing. Ineffective riposte.
The idea that more then one or two Jedi will go down in each volley is unproven. The maximum range of the blaster bolts is 56m, so we won't see the Jedi deflecting anything back from 1000 feet.
Originally posted by Wesker
It's stated clearly in Shatterpoint and visible in the movies that the jedi lost their asses because of the inferior Niman and because of poor military planning and organization. Likewise, in this scenario they are up against very dangerous opponents with heavy weaponry and the advantage of effective placement. You obviously underestimate proper tactics versus numbers.
Janus, you obviously underestimate a Jedi's ability to block blaster bolts or to close the gap between the MAXIMUM RANGE of the HK's guns in less then 8 seconds even if they don't use force speed, half that if they do.
Lets compare the droids in ep2 and the droids here.
The Droids at Geonosis had the following for them:
- Massive numbers advantage,
- Better Guns on Super Battle Droids(fire as fast, if not faster, and better range),
- Heavy Weapons(like the sonic canons we saw in the arena. One shot took out something like 3 Jedi),
- Geonosian allies,
- General Grevious supposedly killed mutiple Jedi during this battle, so a large help that the HK droids will not have.
The HK droids have the following for them:
- More coordinated attack force
- Better formation
The HK Droids lack:
- Numerical supperiority
- Heavy Weapons
- A Jedi killer named Grevious who would have otherwise killed mutiple Jedi during this battle
- Geonosian allies
- Guns that have as range or rate of fire(for the SBD).
I don't see what makes you think the HK droids have the advantage.
Originally posted by Wesker
Again, Nai's theory does not equal validated fact. And you're missing something here... any instances where the droids where force pushed it was VERY close. We're talking 10 meters and under if that, and they had to stop defending and slashing to do it. I wouldn't call that "HK droids into junk piles", Glentract. But I might call your accessment "poor".The jedi are ****ed.
The fact is that not all of the Jedi will be constantly deflecting blaster bolts. Only the ones in the front will need to do that. Here is how I see the battle.
HK HK HK HK HK
HK HK HK HK HK
JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD
JD JD JD JD JD
JD JD JD JD
Forgive the simplicity of the example. Each HK represents 10 HK droids. Each JD represents 10 Jedi.
Notice that there is at least once Jedi in the front line for every single HK droid firing at them. The ones in the back are effectively protected. The ones in the second or third row can afford to take a second or two to force push a few droids over or throw their lightsabers at the HK droids in a simlar to fashion that we saw in JA by Jaden Korr.
Jedi win.
Also, Janus, If there indeed were only 400 Jedi in the order as you oh so sarcasticly stated before, and only 212 Jedi were sent to Geonosis. There were 16 survivors of the Arena. Do the math. 212 minus 16 is 196. Take that and subract it from 400, it's 204. If you think there were only 204 Jedi in the order, you are sadly mistaken.
Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Also, Janus, If there indeed were only 400 Jedi in the order as you oh so sarcasticly stated before, and only 212 Jedi were sent to Geonosis. There were 16 survivors of the Arena. Do the math. 212 minus 16 is 196. Take that and subract it from 400, it's 204. If you think there were only 204 Jedi in the order, you are sadly mistaken.
Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
You need to know when to STFU, when George Lucas says it, he's right, you aren't.
Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Haha. Wow, you are so lame. You are 23 years old and have about 40,000 posts on this site. I don't care what you say, because this shit is just too funny.
Actually, I have 13,000 over the course of an entire year. And there's mods who are older than me with four times that many posts, so I'd watch what I said if I were you.