Marka Ragnos, DN Luke and Exar Kun Run the Guantlet

I can't prove the amulet does anything? How does Kun use his little blast technique? Ah yes the Amulet...

And that's all you can prove that it does, not that it can boost his force power. That and this is a straw man argument intended to diminish Kun's power, ignoring the fact that Kun is not fighting naked and ergo has access to it.

What was Kun before he got a hold of the amulet and Sadow's teaching? Ah yes nothing..

Nothing except a master swordsman, a powerful Jedi, and the "most formidable student (Vodo) had ever had."

There is no proof that the amulet boosted his power at all. Why? Because at the same time he embraced the Dark Side and shortly after began to study Sith Magic.

Ergo, Luke's powers are still not more impressive and many of them are still irrelevant to a fight.

Oh yea, not to mention the Vong weren't part of the force and that Luke had to LEARN how to use the force against such an enemy.

And this means what? Kun had to break through Odan's Force defense, something the Vong did not have. He did so with a simple hand movement.

Originally posted by IKC
And it's also irrelevant to the fight, Veneficus.

I am very aware of that, but do you have any idea the collective mass of a black hole? I'm pretty certain you must seeing as how your in college. The fact that Luke managed to manupilate that amount of energy is just pretty crazy to me. If Luke could do that I'm pretty certain he could take Exar. Not to mention that Luke took down a shitload of Vong slayers like it was nothing.

Also before you accuse me of being bais towards Luke you should know that I DETEST Luke as a character and if you don't believe me ask Janus he'll comfirm it.

Really you have elevated Kun to a level his power does not warrent.

Exactly. IKC I don't have to prove Sadow's amulet made Kun more powerful. Some things are quite logical, like Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful. Sadow was only second to Ragnos and he poured his entire sith knowledge into the amulet, so that increasing the power of Kun is a given.

I am very aware of that, but do you have any idea the collective mass of a black hole? I'm pretty certain you must seeing as how your in college. The fact that Luke managed to manupilate that amount of energy is just pretty crazy to me. If Luke could do that I'm pretty certain he could take Exar. Not to mention that Luke took down a shitload of Vong slayers like it was nothing.

And do you know how much energy it took for Kun to, for example, control the Senate? How about how much energy he releases through his amulets?

Hell, Kun took down a shitload of Massassi like it was nothing. Massassi that were powered by the Dark Side, some of which were shown to slap around pissed-off Jedi with bare hands.

Luke can't take Kun. You need to prove up, not dip into irrelevancies and feat wars.

Also before you accuse me of being bais towards Luke you should know that I DETEST Luke as a character and if you don't believe me ask Janus he'll comfirm it.

Do I care? Ever since you started lurking around again you've had a bug up your ass about me and about Kun. We have established and quantified his power during a debate you were never here for (against Lightsnake).

Some things are quite logical, like Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful. Sadow was only second to Ragnos and he poured his entire sith knowledge into the amulet, so that increasing the power of Kun is a given.

Make shit up much?

Prove he "poured his entire Sith knowledge into the amulet." Then prove that it's designed to increase one's force power.

No offense but DN Luke can take Kun, it's already been proven even though you can't admit to it. And how are you going to compare freezing the entire senate, consisting of a few hundred thousand at most, to manipulating a black hole, planets, guiding ships through the force? It's simple, Luke is superior to Kun in terms of Force power, and he doesn't have an amulet to do it. Add the instakill technique and Kun goes bye bye, despite what you want to believe.

tdtd, WHERE HAS IT BEEN PROVEN?

How is he going to win? What is he going to do? Quantify his power and quantify Kun's!

Explain how he'll block blasts that Kun can cast repeatedly with no recharge time as we see in the scans. Explain how he'll win against Kun's absolute mastery of the lightsaber. Prove that he'll be able to win against Kun's own instakill which dropped a Jedi Master of 1000 years.

And when did Luke manipulate a planet? Make shit up much?

Guiding ships through the Force? Make shit up much? Understand the concept of relevancy?

Prove that he's superior in Force power, and then prove that Kun's amulets boost his power. Then, tell us how it's relevant if and when you prove that they boost him when you are faced with the simple fact that Kun is not fighting naked and ergo has access to said amulets.

Cute, Kun has an instakill, Luke has an instakill, Kun was known as a lightsaber prodigy, so was Luke. You still haven't proved how Kun is superior to Luke besides a bunch of biased crap.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Luke Skywalker, despite how little training he received, became a powerful Jedi Master. His skill with both the Force and lightsaber are remarkable. In the New Jedi Order novel series, Luke uses a powerful and unique ability of the Force known as "Emerald Lightning" by fans of the series in the final battle against the Yuuzhan Vong. This technique has been described to look like "green sparks," which can instantly kill its victim. No other character can generate such powerful lightning. Throughout the Expanded Universe, he displays an amazing mastery of the Force, by manipulating black holes, gravity, and planets.

Now unless you're going to claim that wikipedia isn't a canon source, shut up...

Originally posted by IKC
And do you know how much energy it took for Kun to, for example, control the Senate? How about how much energy he releases through his amulets?

Hell, Kun took down a shitload of Massassi like it was nothing. Massassi that were powered by the Dark Side, some of which were shown to slap around pissed-off Jedi with bare hands.

Luke can't take Kun. You need to prove up, not dip into irrelevancies and feat wars.

Do I care? Ever since you started lurking around again you've had a bug up your ass about me and about Kun. We have established and quantified his power during a debate you were never here for (against Lightsnake).

Make shit up much?

Prove he "poured his entire Sith knowledge into the amulet." Then prove that it's designed to increase one's force power.

Oh! God forbid I actually disagree with you IKC the almighty and wise and unfallible debater who is never wrong. 🙄

You have this bad characistic to get pissed whenever someone disagrees with you.

Oh and I was a witness to that debate between Lightsnake, just becuase I never posted in it does not mean that I never read it.

During the Death Seed Plague, Luke used the Force to communicate with the sentient crystals Tsils. It is important to remember that the more dissimilar the type of mind, the more difficult it is to communicate with via the Force.
While searching for the kidnapped Solo children, Luke used the Force to create an illusion over his face in order to disguise his identity. He would later reuse this trick on Yoggoy.
During the Kueller crisis, Luke prepared himself for death in such a way that he would become a Force ghost.
During the Battle of Dantooine Luke manuvered several black holes to crash into an enemy rakamat, destroying it
Jaina Solo describes him in the final battle of the Yuuzhan Vong War as a maelstrom of Force energy, so calm and focused that he was unstoppable. She also says his lightsaber looked to be like ten or twenty blades all moving at once.
Luke's abilities with a lightsaber and the Force allow him to prevail over thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warriors, along with other enemies. Luke defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own could kill many Jedi.
During the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of his ship to fool the attacking enemy. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shrivelled like Palpatine's.
Towards the end of the Swarm War, Luke used the Force to call all Jedi across the Galaxy to Ossus to make the announcement of him taking on the role of Grand Master of the Order, and to issue his views to the Jedi

I am not arguing that Kun isn't uber powerful, but Kun isn't even on par with Luke when it comes to force power.

Actually, Luke was never known as a lightsaber prodigy. He's more-so known for leading the Jedi in strikeouts as Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source, come up with something canon. Wikipedia falls nowhere under canon.

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.

See Wikipedia under there? I think not.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Oh! God forbid I actually disagree with you IKC the almighty and wise and unfallible debater who is never wrong. 🙄

You have this bad characistic to get pissed whenever someone disagrees with you.

Oh and I was a witness to that debate between Lightsnake, just becuase I never posted in it does not mean that I never read it.

Yeah, you never posted in it and you never engaged intellectually in it either:

Originally posted by Veneficus
God...this has gotten pathetic. Nevermind that we are arguing about imaginary characters and nevermind that it is pointless anyway lets just go ahead and insult eachother over the unreal!

Yayyyyyyy*record breaks* *jumbled scratching nioses and finally silence*

Originally posted by IKC
Yeah, you never posted in it and you never engaged intellectually in it either:

And? Your point? Have I gotten all pissed and shouted (or typed I should say) insults at you? Have I posted rude pics towards you? Have I told you to STFU? Have I bashed you? No I have done none of these things where as you have acted hostile simply becuase I disagree with you.

The only reason I posted that was becuase you guys were all bashing eachother and I could not help but find it to be pretty lame. Bashing eachother over fictonal characters, dear Lord how stupid.

During the Death Seed Plague, Luke used the Force to communicate with the sentient crystals Tsils. It is important to remember that the more dissimilar the type of mind, the more difficult it is to communicate with via the Force.

Kun controlled the multiracial Senate.

While searching for the kidnapped Solo children, Luke used the Force to create an illusion over his face in order to disguise his identity. He would later reuse this trick on Yoggoy.

Right, and Kun, a master of Sith Alchemy, couldn't do anything like this. God forbid.

How does this help Luke in a fight?

During the Kueller crisis, Luke prepared himself for death in such a way that he would become a Force ghost.

And Kun released his spirit without having to die.

How does this help Luke in a fight?

During the Battle of Dantooine Luke manuvered several black holes to crash into an enemy rakamat, destroying it

And what kind of effort did he exert in doing this? Kyp Durron replicated this feat, it's not as impressive as you make it out to be.

How does this help Luke in a fight?

Jaina Solo describes him in the final battle of the Yuuzhan Vong War as a maelstrom of Force energy, so calm and focused that he was unstoppable. She also says his lightsaber looked to be like ten or twenty blades all moving at once.

Jaina Solo is not an objective, omniscient narrator and she's clearly engaging in hyperbole. What does swinging a blade like it's ten or twenty look like? Did he swing them with any skill at all? This proves jack.

Luke's abilities with a lightsaber and the Force allow him to prevail over thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warriors, along with other enemies. Luke defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own could kill many Jedi.

And Kun's allowed him to prevail over formidible force users like Odan and Vodo. Indeed, he tooled the most powerful masters of his age and dominated the Massassi race, some of the stronger ones able to floor Jedi with bare hands.

During the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of his ship to fool the attacking enemy. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shrivelled like Palpatine's.

Huh. Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto both managed to create many more tangible illusions than Luke did and both did so without such consequences. Looks like both of them are greater than Luke in this regard.

Towards the end of the Swarm War, Luke used the Force to call all Jedi across the Galaxy to Ossus to make the announcement of him taking on the role of Grand Master of the Order, and to issue his views to the Jedi

And Kun was seen as such a threat that all the Jedi in the galaxy appeared over Yavin IV to attack him with their "wall of Light." Thousands upon thousands of Force users were there, it was arguably the most powerful gathering of the Light that the galaxy had ever seen.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun controlled the multiracial Senate.

Wake up. I've told you once and I tell you again. Read the narrators description of what Kun did in the comic. It says that he has frozen the Senators. And if that is Kun's greatest display of power - Raynar in DN controlled 375 planets filled with Killiks. So Raynar > Kun ? And since Luke defeated Raynar...Luke > Kun ?

Right, and Kun, a master of Sith Alchemy, couldn't do anything like this. God forbid.
How does this help Luke in a fight?

What has creating illusions to do with Sith Alchemy ? If you would read the Chrystal star - Luke actively manipulated the minds of an entire space station filled with people to look different than he did. He did that with such a skill that even a trained Jedi didn't realize being manipulated by him. Then he kept using that technique on a place that drained the force power from people for over a week when Hethrir failed to ignite his lightsaber using the force after just being there for a few hours.

And what kind of effort did he exert in doing this? Kyp Durron replicated this feat, it's not as impressive as you make it out to be.

It wasn't exactly replicated as Luke used it on multiple "black holes" (which were artificial gravitation wells able to generate enough power to move moons) at once.

Jaina Solo is not an objective, omniscient narrator and she's clearly engaging in hyperbole. What does swinging a blade like it's ten or twenty look like? Did he swing them with any skill at all? This proves jack.

No of course he slashed through an entire army of Yuuzhan Vong including YV slayers without any lightsaber wielding skill and of course he can handle a weapon for 30 years without developing any skill in doing so. This is of course completely ignoring the fact that he thought of himself as the best lightsaber fighter in the entire order (when arrogance doesn't appear to be part of his personality) but I guess nobody in the NJO has any noticeable lightsaber skill (Kyle ? Jaden ? Kyp ?)...

And Kun's allowed him to prevail over formidible force users like Odan and Vodo. Indeed, he tooled the most powerful masters of his age and dominated the Massassi race, some of the stronger ones able to floor Jedi with bare hands.

As if Odan and Vodo are anywhere near the NJO people or the post ROTJ villians in the SW EU. Could they have defeated Joruus, DE Sidious, Shimmra or Raynar ?

Huh. Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto both managed to create many more tangible illusions than Luke did and both did so without such consequences. Looks like both of them are greater than Luke in this regard.

Ah. Feat wars is allowed when you like it. I wonder what Sadow would have looked like if he tried to generate his illusions without his meditation sphere while in a ship combat situation. I guess their is a reason why he didn't try to do this...

And Kun was seen as such a threat that all the Jedi in the galaxy appeared over Yavin IV to attack him with their "wall of Light." Thousands upon thousands of Force users were there, it was arguably the most powerful gathering of the Light that the galaxy had ever seen.

And how many Jedi were needed to defeat Kun ? All that were present ? 100 ? 50 ? 10 ? Of course Kun was seen as a great threat and that's why they sent everything they had to confront him but that doesn't mean they needed everything they had to confront him.

By the way IKC: Why are you just dismissing any argument for Luke as "feat wars". TDTD has posted some examples of Luke's force control and everything you have to say was "feat wars". Also nice how you simply left the Exar vs DE Sidious and NJO Luke threat without further comments.

Thank you bombarad, at least you have some common sense. I won't state that DN Luke is definitely>than Kun but from what we have seen, Luke has a mastery of the force that is uncomparable, and I agree that if Sadow wasn't in the meditation sphere, he would have looked like Luke did after what he did. And even a hyperbole like "Luke looked like he was swinging 20 lightsabers" says something about Luke's power. No IKC, I'm afraid you have lost, and Kun is the weakest link out of the three, I expect you to run like you do from all of the other threads..

Somehow got double-posted

Wake up. I've told you once and I tell you again. Read the narrators description of what Kun did in the comic. It says that he has frozen the Senators. And if that is Kun's greatest display of power - Raynar in DN controlled 375 planets filled with Killiks. So Raynar > Kun ? And since Luke defeated Raynar...Luke > Kun ?

Pull your head out of your ass and get some reading comprehension.

1) Except then you use your brain and realize that Kun was actively controlling the rest of the Senate already:

Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Therefore, because Kun has demonstrated the ability to control the rest of the Senate, comprised of a great multitude of multiracial beings, it is also logically sound to assume that he did not need to walk up to the Chancellor to control him, either. He did, though, because it is obvious that Kun is big on theatrics, as demonstrated by his entrance to the Senate itself:

What has creating illusions to do with Sith Alchemy ?

Sith Magic, I should say. Aleema did it. Naga did it. Both of them did it to a far greater scale than Luke could ever dream of. There is no reason to assume that Exar could not, and there's every reason to assume that he could since he had access to more than Aleema did.

It wasn't exactly replicated as Luke used it on multiple "black holes" (which were artificial gravitation wells able to generate enough power to move moons) at once.

And it was still replicated as you have never provided context for this feat. Did he do it all at once? Did he move them very far? Did it take much effort? What's the context? How the hell does this help him in a fight?

No of course he slashed through an entire army of Yuuzhan Vong including YV slayers without any lightsaber wielding skill and of course he can handle a weapon for 30 years without developing any skill in doing so.

Beating a bunch of non-force-sensitives wielding physical objects rather than lightsabers? Great. So how about the Massassi that Kun blasted apart, some of which were shown to drop Jedi with bare hands?

Yes, I'm sure Luke's improved since his record-breaking strikeout days, but without formal training with opponents who are better than him, he progressed at a slower rate and there's nothing to suggest that he's better with the lightsaber than Kun, who was immersed in the forms of the Old Order and created a unique weapon and style.

This is of course completely ignoring the fact that he thought of himself as the best lightsaber fighter in the entire order (when arrogance doesn't appear to be part of his personality) but I guess nobody in the NJO has any noticeable lightsaber skill (Kyle ? Jaden ? Kyp ?)...

Apparently you have no sense of irony. Note how everyone you just named with the exception of Katarn was trained by Luke or his subordinates, who were still trained by Luke. I'd call him incompetant if he wasn't the best saber wielder of his little band of Jedi.

As if Odan and Vodo are anywhere near the NJO people or the post ROTJ villians in the SW EU. Could they have defeated Joruus, DE Sidious, Shimmra or Raynar ?

Given their vastly superior knowledge and that they faced down far worse opponents (the Ancient Sith, anyone?), I'm going to say yes.

As if the fact that Kun dropped both of them like they were nothing doesn't mean anything? I like how you're arguing the exact opposite points you were arguing against Lightsnake. How about some consistency?

Ah. Feat wars is allowed when you like it. I wonder what Sadow would have looked like if he tried to generate his illusions without his meditation sphere while in a ship combat situation. I guess their is a reason why he didn't try to do this...

Except I was completely destroying his attempt at feat wars. Reading comprehension is your friend, Nai.

Your speculation as to the effects of creating illusions outside of his sphere is moot. You have no proof to ground it on and evidence speaks against you: Aleema could create far greater tangible illusions than Luke ever did, and she never had access to said sphere. QED.

And how many Jedi were needed to defeat Kun ? All that were present ? 100 ? 50 ? 10 ? Of course Kun was seen as a great threat and that's why they sent everything they had to confront him but that doesn't mean they needed everything they had to confront him.

And if they only figured they needed a few or even a hundred, why did they send the call out to all Jedi in the galaxy to meet above the skies of Yavin 4 and use the Wall of Light power, hm? The answer to your question can only be speculation because there's no proof for any concrete answer.

By the way IKC: Why are you just dismissing any argument for Luke as "feat wars". TDTD has posted some examples of Luke's force control and everything you have to say was "feat wars". Also nice how you simply left the Exar vs DE Sidious and NJO Luke threat without further comments.

Mostly because he brings up irrelevant bullshit like "Luke blew up the death star!" and "Luke can disguise his face!"

Also nice how you apparently think I'm obligated to respond to every picadilly post you make within a time frame you decide on. Don't worry, I'll get to it.

Get to what? You've lost the debate with your silly fanboyism. And why did you post the same thing twice? Trying to establish your point? Btw if you look on the references from Wikipedia, they are all "G-Canon" as you put it, so despite your denial, they are an accurate portrayal and testament of Luke's power, which exceeds anything Kun has done.

LOL!

Yes, because NJO and Wikipedia was written by Lucas, right? Good job making an ass of yourself once again, troll. Learn to read, learn to debate. Until then,

How many times have you embarassed yourself in this thread you silly fanboy? Your arguments have been nothing short of faulty in regards to your hero kun. Stop embarassing yourself already.

Oh and yes, The New Essential Guide to Characters (Star Wars) is canon, even a dumb fanboy like yourself should know that, but continue the embarassment, it's getting to easy.