Uh, if you were reading from NJO or DN they would be canon but you aren't. Your source (Wikipedia) is not canon and is subject to bias and simple errors.
The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)
S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.
2. troll, n.
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.
Given their vastly superior knowledge and that they faced down far worse opponents (the Ancient Sith, anyone?), I'm going to say yes.As if the fact that Kun dropped both of them like they were nothing doesn't mean anything? I like how you're arguing the exact opposite points you were arguing against Lightsnake. How about some consistency?
Odan and Vodo faced the Ancient Sith? Most of them were killed when Naga Sadow ran, and destroyed Ludo. The sith Lords were killed by their own Massasi. Unless you have prove that even these weak Sith were more powerful then the Yuuzhan Vong, you really have no case here. Also Vodo is 600 years old, the Hyperspace war was 400 years earlier.
Beating a bunch of non-force-sensitives wielding physical objects rather than lightsabers? Great. So how about the Massassi that Kun blasted apart, some of which were shown to drop Jedi with bare hands?
Aren't you the one that said that Ulic was impressive for beating Mandalore? A none force senstive without a lightsaber? Good way to be consistent, especially when you say Nai is not in the same post.
And again about the senate they were FROZEN. You are the one thats takig that quote of context and in a way that it was not meant just to satisfy your own personal goals, and to make Kun look more impressive.
The Narrator says the entire chamber is frozen, forced to watch and not react.
This does not imply he controlled them, it says he froze them. If he controlled them it would have said something like "Kun controlled the entire Senate chamber, they were forced to watch his every move" it says nothing along those lines, it says Frozen. And if you are frozen you are forced to watch. Simpe as that.
And the Narrator is even lying with that because not the entire chamber is frozen, the chancelor is not, the Jedi are not...
Odan and Vodo faced the Ancient Sith? Most of them were killed when Naga Sadow ran, and destroyed Ludo. The sith Lords were killed by their own Massasi. Unless you have prove that even these weak Sith were more powerful then the Yuuzhan Vong, you really have no case here. Also Vodo is 600 years old, the Hyperspace war was 400 years earlier.
Odan faced down the Ancient Sith and blocked many from the Force. The war went on beyond the events portrayed in FotSE as evidenced here:
That and we don't know how long the war lasted beyond the FotSE events. Vodo could very well have fought in it, though it's very unlikely.
And yes, the weak Sith were more powerful than Yuuzhan Vong: have you seen any Vong drop lightsaber-wielding Jedi with bare hands? Seen any Vong use the Dark Side? I think not.
Aren't you the one that said that Ulic was impressive for beating Mandalore? A none force senstive without a lightsaber? Good way to be consistent, especially when you say Nai is not in the same post.
I'm glad you've taken into account the context of their battle: Mandalore on a basilisk war droid, Ulic not even permitted to stand on solid ground (he was on chains). Good job with the observation skills, Fishy!
And again about the senate they were FROZEN. You are the one thats takig that quote of context and in a way that it was not meant just to satisfy your own personal goals, and to make Kun look more impressive.
And then you pull your head out of your ass and read the rest of the sentence: FORCED TO WATCH AND NOT REACT.
This does not imply he controlled them, it says he froze them. If he controlled them it would have said something like "Kun controlled the entire Senate chamber, they were forced to watch his every move" it says nothing along those lines, it says Frozen. And if you are frozen you are forced to watch. Simpe as that.
Your head's in the sand:
Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.
And the Narrator is even lying with that because not the entire chamber is frozen, the chancelor is not, the Jedi are not...
Right, the omniscient narrator is lying. Kun can't possibly have let them out of his spell, the omniscient narrator must be lying!
Good call, Fishy. Nice assumption.
Time for class.
IKC, Wikipedia got the NJO and DN information FROM THE DN AND NJO BOOKS. Hence, the title "New Jedi Order" and "Dark Nest" and "The Swarm Wars". I love how you illogically diminish the abilities of others by claiming the information is false, while embellishing the feats of your hero Kun.. I don't think I have to define Fanboy for you, as you've already proven it.
Maybe you should take a logic and critical thinking class while you're at it.
Originally posted by IKC
[B]Odan faced down the Ancient Sith and blocked many from the Force. The war went on beyond the events portrayed in FotSE as evidenced here:That and we don't know how long the war lasted beyond the FotSE events. Vodo could very well have fought in it, though it's very unlikely.
The Sith Lords were dead... Killed by Massasi what remained was weak, you know that.. Probably in a rebellion for a new Dark Lord. Odan probably cut of a lot from the force, but that means jack shit unless we know how powerful they were.
And yes, the weak Sith were more powerful than Yuuzhan Vong: have you seen any Vong drop lightsaber-wielding Jedi with bare hands? Seen any Vong use the Dark Side? I think not.
I never read any NJO and neither did you, so saying they are more powerful is bullshit, unless you know exactly what those guys did. And you don't. This is one huge assumption and you are arguing from ignorance, not a very good thing to do.
I'm glad you've taken into account the context of their battle: Mandalore on a basilisk war droid, Ulic not even permitted to stand on solid ground (he was on chains). Good job with the observation skills, Fishy!
Did you take the battle against the Yuuzhan Vong into context? No you did not, you just said that fighting none force sensitives isn't impressive. Don't bullshit me with this logic IKC, you don't know the condition in which they fought, and yet you say its not impressive.
And he wasn't in the Basilisk the entire time now was he?
And then you pull your head out of your ass and read the rest of the sentence: FORCED TO WATCH AND NOT REACT.
Again cool down, you are getting pissed off a lot lately when people don't agree with you, you aren't almighty you know. You aren't always right.
And forced to watch and not react does not say, controlled. However he does literally say FROZEN. So they were just that FROZEN. Your argument after that makes no sense, because its all based on a terrible assumption of which we see no prove, we don't see their heads move we don't see their body's move we see nothing move. You wanting it and stating a million times does not make it so. Prove that they moved to keep on watching or admit to the fact that they are frozen. The Narrator just expands on what Frozen means, as to say that they are not literally in a block of ice.
Your head's in the sand:
and you are ignoring points left and right just to make it fit your own believes.
Right, the omniscient narrator is lying. Kun can't possibly have let them out of his spell, the omniscient narrator must be lying!Good call, Fishy. Nice assumption.
Time for class.
I'm not the one assuming anything, I am saying that there were people able to move. Kun had no reason to allow them to move, so he didn't freeze them all, simple as that. Unless you can prove that he did. There is no indication in the comic at all that he let them go. In fact everything points the other way. The Narrator doesn't mention them being able to walk again because Kun lowered his spell, Kun does nothing that could make the spell weaken for as far as we can see. So Kun didn't allow them to move, Kun simply did not freeze them. If you think otherwise, Prove up.
Originally posted by Illustrious
I love how you treat it like an open and shut case because you have that opinion. At least IKC has attempted to bring in proof, you just repeat the same thing ad nauseum.And who the hell voted for 6?
Listing Feats isnt proof, as BOTH IKC and TDTD has done, hell if we compare feats, Ragnos certainly isnt going to surpass even Obi Wan, does that mean Obi Wan > Ragnos? No way.
However the Vong have never demonstrated any control of the force, while the Massasi have, but its still irrevelant, Kun tooled Vodo, one of the most skilled lightsaber combat masters, whats to say he cant tool the Vong like Luke did?
His emerald lightning never kills, it merely stuns, its victim, hence its not a instakill, as well its only been demonstrated on a non force being, therefore we cannot say it works on Kun, neither have the amulet blasts been proven to affect force users, however from the information we have, the amulet blasts are stronger due to its ability to rip monsters of the Dark side into shreds.
Goodwork TDTD you have proved what Luke has done, and what his capable of, however you have not proved that Luke is better than Kun, in both demonstration of Lightsaber combat and Force Powers, Kun and Luke are on par with each other, as in force potential.
The reason being, while Luke has had around 50 books written about him, and a more thorough description of ALL his powers, we havent more than one comic on Kun's power, neither his full potential, due to his premature death.
Certainly if Ulic had bested a Jedi without the Force, and with Kun leagues above Ulic, then its clear Kun, was skilled in lightsaber combat to an extent that it would most likely equal DN Luke's, however this point is speculation.
However i do not believe Kun to be superior to Luke, neither Luke superior to Kun, i believe them to be on par with each other, in both lightsaber combat and force abilites.
Originally posted by tdtd
W00t, the emerald lightning kills its victims instantly, if you want a source I can show you a source. I also put Luke's force abilities above Kun's because Kun had Sadow's amulet, while Luke had nothing. And then when you look at examples of their force mastery, Luke goes beyond Kun..
But there is no evidence to even suggest that the amulet boosted their force powers at all. It gave Kun access to some cool abilities, but there's nothing to suggest that it made his force push or anything else any stronger.
Nadd was able to floor Vodo as a spirit. And if we want to talk amulets, then when Satal equipped the amulet, all he could do is read Sith text, no mention of force abilities at all.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Listing Feats isnt proof, as BOTH IKC and TDTD has done, hell if we compare feats, Ragnos certainly isnt going to surpass even Obi Wan, does that mean Obi Wan > Ragnos? No way.
Exactly, in terms of feats that show force powers, Luke owns Kun. Illustrious, it is very logical to assume that Sadow's OWN Amulet increased Kun's power, if even a little. It still speaks volumes about Luke who was able to mimic Sadow's abilities without a meditation sphere, albeit now in the quantity that Sadow did it. There's still more evidence that Luke is superior to Kun in the Force, those books make him look like a Force God
Originally posted by PurpleSaber
However, we DO know some of Kun's feats as well as Luke's. If we compare them, Kun has not done things nearly as powerful as Luke has.
Like what? Controlling a black hole? That's irrelevant to the fight, Luke's not going to up and summon a black hole while he is engaging Kun. Besides, Kyp duplicated the feat, it's not quite as impressive.
Swinging a lightsaber really fast according to Jaina? Is this definitively faster than Kun? Is faster definitively better? Dooku didn't have the fastest saber in the series, but he seemed to do alright.
Luke used emerald lightning. On a non-force user. Can he do it on Kun? Doubtful. Kun has an attack that instantly throttled Odan-Urr, a respected and revered Jedi Master who probably has forgotten more than most NJO/DN Jedi know.
He hacked his way through an army of Vong? Are the Vong stronger than Kun's Massassi? Give me the evidence of that. The Massassi submitted to Kun unquestionably.
Is Luke just the best saberist ever or something? He beat Supreme Overlord Shimrra. Is he superior to Vodo? Odan? How?
And then comparing feats is just pointless. As mentioned, Luke has dozens of books compared to Kun's comics. If feats were all that mattered, than Ragnos wouldn't even be as impressive as Lando. Despite being the highest figure of the Sith.
What I'm asking for is context. Until the context is there, the argument is inconclusive.
