Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke uses his instikill emerald lightning to take out Revan, then draws his saber and wipes out Malak and Sidious. Actually, it would be close. Actually idk. What's to stop Luke from just using his lightning on all of them?
When has the instakill been shown to work on a force user? How does that instakill even work? No bodily sign of injury means it possibly could have shut down the Vong nervous system. Arguing from ignorance will get you laughed at, that's about it.
DN Luke could win if he keeps his distance, engaging a saber battle from three angles wouldn't be a cup of tea.
Originally posted by Illustrious
When has the instakill been shown to work on a force user? How does that instakill even work? No bodily sign of injury means it possibly could have shut down the Vong nervous system. Arguing from ignorance will get you laughed at, that's about it.DN Luke could win if he keeps his distance, engaging a saber battle from three angles wouldn't be a cup of tea.
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, remember? You keep downplaying the instakill I don't know why...
Originally posted by tdtd
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, remember? You keep downplaying the instakill I don't know why...
How do I downplay it? I said you can't simply apply it to situations in which it would be improbable to apply it to. The green sparks (outside of downing a Vong like a tree) showed NO destructive effects. So you can guarantee that it instakills people, how? As far as you know, it was a technique developed against the Vong.
And absence of proof isn't proof of the affirmative either. You have to have a premise to apply that logic. You see Revan in a short FMV wielding a saber, he seems to favor precision more than acrobatics or range. Malak uses strength and a long saber; the only individual of the trio that uses a lot of space is Sidious, and even then, he wouldn't necessarily have an issue if he has his own corner to attack him from.
Don't ass-u-me.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Except Kun's saber style is conceivably surperior to Luke's, given that he invented his own style and adding he uses a double blade saber, which gives a more offensive attack.
How does Exar making his own style make him better with a saber then Luke? Mace created his own form too, is he better then DN Luke also? Oh, and sense Maul has a double bladed lightsaber he can take Luke. This statement is full of crap.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Like we have said, if Luke's instakill works, then so does Kun's, you cannot downplay Kun's attack and boost Luke's.
This statement makes ZERO sense. Why does Luke's instakill working mean that Exar's has to work also? Just like the paragraph above, this statement is full of crap.
How does Exar making his own style make him better with a saber then Luke? Mace created his own form too, is he better then DN Luke also? Oh, and sense Maul has a double bladed lightsaber he can take Luke. This statement is full of crap.
No, but having his unique style and beating other revered Jedi with apparent ease with this style does indicate something.
Unless you're implying that we should naturally hold Luke being greater than Kun as the status quo, and the Kun supporters must provide a stastically significant argument that Kun is superior to Luke, but that does seem to be the ideology you're taking.
Logic dictates that having his own style with a unique, double-bladed lightsaber and beating down the best fighters of his era (which contains a martial Jedi Order numbering in the thousands and coming off their victory against the Sith) is superior to a farmboy with no apparent style and beating down on nonforce users and people he trained. So what proof do you have to refute any of that?
This statement makes ZERO sense. Why does Luke's instakill working mean that Exar's has to work also? Just like the paragraph above, this statement is full of crap.
Because Kun actually has MORE proof of his instakill working on a force user, because Kun actually DID it to Odan Urr.
Luke's instakill hasn't even shown any physical manifestation or any other destructive effects other than downing a Vong, which is far from conclusive regardless of how much you want it to.
Think before you talk.
Originally posted by Illustrious
No, but having his unique style and beating other revered Jedi with apparent ease with this style does indicate something.
As does being able to wield a lightsaber as if it were 20 and also being able to fight at a speed that even a Jedi Knight could not see him shows the same thing.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Unless you're implying that we should naturally hold Luke being greater than Kun as the status quo, and the Kun supporters must provide a stastically significant argument that Kun is superior to Luke, but that does seem to be the ideology you're taking.
Notice that I DIDN'T say that Luke was better. You assumed that I automatically consider Luke better with a blade. I just posted reasons that show why his reasons are crap.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Logic dictates that having his own style with a unique, double-bladed lightsaber and beating down the best fighters of his era (which contains a martial Jedi Order numbering in the thousands and coming off their victory against the Sith) is superior to a farmboy with no apparent style and beating down on nonforce users and people he trained. So what proof do you have to refute any of that?
Luke beat down the best fighters of his era, including Luuke, DE Sidious, Raynar, Lomi Plo, Shimrra, and Welk. Do you think that Luke trained Luuke, Sidious, or Lomi Plo? Furthermore, Luke took down students from the Shadow Academy and he fought against the Reborn guys.
Luke's student, Kyp Durron, killed an Ancient Sith SUPERWEAPON. I'd call that impressive. Oh, and Luke was significantly stronger then him.
Oh, and if Luke had no lightsaber form, how was he able to fight through thousands of Yuuzhan Vong?
Originally posted by Illustrious
Because Kun actually has MORE proof of his instakill working on a force user, because Kun actually DID it to Odan Urr.
We know that Luke's attack is a physical manifestation of the force, meaning that it can affect people other then Yuuzhan Vong. How do we know this? It's quite simple really. Only Jedi that had some sort of surgery done on them that meshed their body with Yuuzhan Vong originated tissue were able to use Vongsense. Vongsense is when a Jedi is able to use the force on Vong, although none of the Jedi were able to do anything impressive with their Vongsense. Jacen, who was the best with Vongsense, had to focus just to coax a dovin basal to release him. He couldn't rip a Vong's head off with TK or anything like that.
As a physical manifestation of the force it won't matter whether the target is force sensitive or not, it will have an affect on them. BTW, it's not like instakills are the instant criterion for who would win. You make it seem like it is.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Luke's instakill hasn't even shown any physical manifestation or any other destructive effects other than downing a Vong, which is far from conclusive regardless of how much you want it to.Think before you talk.
Yes it has, as I explained above. In the future, take you own advice.
As does being able to wield a lightsaber as if it were 20 and also being able to fight at a speed that even a Jedi Knight could not see him shows the same thing.
More irrelevant misdirection. You never quantified how effective each of those "20 blades" would correlate to.
Like I said, unless Jedi Knight have an automatic bullet time (which they don't, as shown when they get surprised by attacks), they would need to force speed in order to keep up with other force speeds. When has Luke shown the ability to move so much faster than a competent lightsaber toting, force-wielding enemy that he didn't see him?
Unless you're arguing that Kun can't see Luke when he's fighting, you have no point.
Notice that I DIDN'T say that Luke was better. You assumed that I automatically consider Luke better with a blade. I just posted reasons that show why his reasons are crap.
So you gave your own crappy reasons. Good job.
Luke beat down the best fighters of his era, including Luuke, DE Sidious, Raynar, Lomi Plo, Shimrra, and Welk. Do you think that Luke trained Luuke, Sidious, or Lomi Plo? Furthermore, Luke took down students from the Shadow Academy and he fought against the Reborn guys.
Luuke was a year old clone. Even if he did manage to retain ALL of his knowledge from the time his hand was severed, he was still only Luke as of ESB + 1 year of training. Whoopdedoo.
When did Luke defeat Sidious in a fair, one on one situation? He fought a dying clone, he had help pushing back Sidious storm, and he also kneeled down and became Sidious' *****. Impressive.
Lomi Plo greatest showings? Stealing a ship, training Welk (who couldn't even kill Saba Sebatyne), and influencing the Gorog Colony. Oh, definitive.
Luke's student, Kyp Durron, killed an Ancient Sith SUPERWEAPON. I'd call that impressive. Oh, and Luke was significantly stronger then him.
You must have conveniently left out that he fought the Leviathan in a THUNDERSTORM and that his spear happened to act as a nice conductor.
Nice job accounting for context and circumstance. That's what I've been asking you to do the whole time. Give me context and circumstance, you spew out more feats. I know Luke has more feats than Kun already, you didn't need to tell me.
We know that Luke's attack is a physical manifestation of the force, meaning that it can affect people other then Yuuzhan Vong. How do we know this? It's quite simple really. Only Jedi that had some sort of surgery done on them that meshed their body with Yuuzhan Vong originated tissue were able to use Vongsense. Vongsense is when a Jedi is able to use the force on Vong, although none of the Jedi were able to do anything impressive with their Vongsense. Jacen, who was the best with Vongsense, had to focus just to coax a dovin basal to release him. He couldn't rip a Vong's head off with TK or anything like that.As a physical manifestation of the force it won't matter whether the target is force sensitive or not, it will have an affect on them. BTW, it's not like instakills are the instant criterion for who would win. You make it seem like it is.
Yes, but that has not shown that the affect will result in an instakill. Why? Because it was never demonstrated to do so. Said effect of this physical manifestation may have been specifically for Vong. He sure never used it against a Jedi.
Yes it has, as I explained above. In the future, take you own advice.
Don't be daft. You haven't established anything more than what was already known. Yeah, the attack affected a Vong via physical manifestation. But when has those effects been illustrated? Did it sear through a wall? Did it rip through flesh? No? So how do you know the actual effects of this ambiguous emerald sparks?
Wait, you don't. Stop pretending that you do.
It's funny how the Kun fans automatically throw around their "My argument is better than yours, yours makes no sense, Kun is better" Logic around like it actually makes any sense whatsoever.
Logic dictates that having his own style with a unique, double-bladed lightsaber and beating down the best fighters of his era (which contains a martial Jedi Order numbering in the thousands and coming off their victory against the Sith) is superior to a farmboy with no apparent style and beating down on nonforce users and people he trained. So what proof do you have to refute any of that?
^Really? Logic dictates that? Or personal opinion, which is all you're throwing around.
Then there's yet 4 more paragraphs downplaying Luke and making Kun more powerful than he's worth.
Because Kun actually has MORE proof of his instakill working on a force user, because Kun actually DID it to Odan Urr.
^Yes, because the comic shows Kun instantly killing Odan Urr. Oh wait? It doesn't? It's NOT an instakill. Ok gotcha. Stop telling people to think before you talk when you're too biased to listen to anyone else's arguments and opinion, and open up The Sith Wars for god's sake before you call Kun's technique an instakill.
^Really? Logic dictates that? Or personal opinion, which is all you're throwing around.
So wait, self-trained farmboy > trained lightsaber form?
Developing a unique style of saber and form is somehow worse than picking up remnant lightsaber forms from other people?
Yes, logic dictates that. Next thing you know, you're going to argue that beating a force user takes no more skill than beating a non-force user.
^Yes, because the comic shows Kun instantly killing Odan Urr. Oh wait? It doesn't? It's NOT an instakill. Ok gotcha. Stop telling people to think before you talk when you're too biased to listen to anyone else's arguments and opinion, and open up The Sith Wars for god's sake before you call Kun's technique an instakill.
Oh sorry, Odan took 1 panel to die. By this logic, Traya's "instakill" wasn't instant, because she DRAINED the three Jedi, tossed them around, and they groaned and screamed before they died.
Or better yet, show me where the term "instakill" shows up ANYWHERE in Star Wars literature. Because I don't see it. But right, it's not qualifying for instakill because a Luke supporter said so. You sure aren't bad at parroting.
The 3 Jedi didn't parade crying "I'm too old" after Traya's instakill. They just died. Traya's instakill is more definite and concrete than Kun's blasts which have shown to be everything but an instakill.
So wait, self-trained farmboy > trained lightsaber form?
No, but it doesn't make it the other way around, even if you call Luke's force speed during the fights hyperbole, we see him use it effectively on an army of Vong. Can you safely and logically say Kun can defeat an army of Vong with just the lightsaber?
Developing a unique style of saber and form is somehow worse than picking up remnant lightsaber forms from other people?
Nobody said it was worse, but how does that make Kun superior to Luke.
Is Luke superior to Kun because he created his own force power while Kun used Sadow's knowledge?
The 3 Jedi didn't parade crying "I'm too old" after Traya's instakill. They just died. Traya's instakill is more definite and concrete than Kun's blasts which have shown to be everything but an instakill.
He says "I'm too old" just as he dies. Traya threw the Jedi Masters around and drained them as she killed them. That's not instantaneous either. Again, Odan was dead so quickly and rendered so ineffective that it makes little practical difference.
Instakill is never defined in the books, if Odan is immediately rendered ineffective and dies a panel later, that's pretty instant.
No, but it doesn't make it the other way around, even if you call Luke's force speed during the fights hyperbole, we see him use it effectively on an army of Vong. Can you safely and logically say Kun can defeat an army of Vong with just the lightsaber?
The point is moot because you can't safely assume Luke could have done what Kun did. The situation is completely different. Did I ever say what Luke did was not at all impressive in the slightest?
No, I claimed that Luke's feat does not win the fight for him. Exar has the more relevant feat of fighting and beating a revered force user.
Nobody said it was worse, but how does that make Kun superior to Luke.
Is Luke superior to Kun because he created his own force power while Kun used Sadow's knowledge?
If you can establish that Luke's force power is superior to Naga Sadow's, you can assume that. But Naga Sadow seems to have the superior powers.
You're right, Luke's force power isn't superior to Naga Sadow. But what makes you think Kun knew or even did half of what Naga Sadow knew, or did, since Kun isn't on the level of Sadow either. I'm just saying that because Kun created his saber form doesn't make him better than Luke, who learned from a lot of incredible saber duelists. Just like Luke creating his force power doesn't make him more impressive than Kun, who had Sadow's teachings.