DN Luke vs. Revan, Malak, and ROTS Sidious

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right, Luke's force power isn't superior to Naga Sadow. But what makes you think Kun knew or even did half of what Naga Sadow knew, or did, since Kun isn't on the level of Sadow either. I'm just saying that because Kun created his saber form doesn't make him better than Luke, who learned from a lot of incredible saber duelists. Just like Luke creating his force power doesn't make him more impressive than Kun, who had Sadow's teachings.

The difference is that Kun's own saber style has shown, definitively, the ability to beat powerful force users with ease. Luke struggled with DE Sidious and even with individuals like Luuke.

Yes DE Luke. And you're assuming that 20 years later Luke hasn't perfected his saber technique? Which would be the logical assumption.
If Luke's technique was that piss poor would he be able to take out an army of Vong with relative ease, which I highly doubt even Vodo can do. Unless of course you think Vodo as 1 man>an army of non part of the force Vong, and that's also assuming Vodo knows the techniques to fight an enemy not of the force, which he obviously doesn't because he's never encountered such an enemy.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yes DE Luke. And you're assuming that 20 years later Luke hasn't perfected his saber technique? Which would be the logical assumption.
If Luke's technique was that piss poor would he be able to take out an army of Vong with relative ease, which I highly doubt even Vodo can do. Unless of course you think Vodo as 1 man>an army of non part of the force Vong, and that's also assuming Vodo knows the techniques to fight an enemy not of the force, which he obviously doesn't because he's never encountered such an enemy.

No, I never argued Luke didn't get better. I argued that Luke never dominated a powerful force user to the degree Kun has, and even moreso, someone like Kun himself.

Kun isn't an army of Vong, he's a powerful force user that has more than a few offensive abilities and the ability to resist Luke's attacks. That's a whole different ballgame, and the logic some of the Luke supporters have used is simply not applicable.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, I never argued Luke didn't get better. I argued that Luke never dominated a powerful force user to the degree Kun has, and even moreso, someone like Kun himself.

Kun isn't an army of Vong, he's a powerful force user that has more than a few offensive abilities and the ability to resist Luke's attacks. That's a whole different ballgame, and the logic some of the Luke supporters have used is simply not applicable.

Yes I agree with that. I'm tempted to play feat wars again but it's not too relevant to the fight. And yes Kun has the ability to resist Luke's attacks. But so do the VONG. ..

The Vong has demonstrated no ability to resist the physical manifestations of the force. If you tried dropping a building on the Vong, they couldn't push it back. If you tried dropping one on Kun, he could.

You're right but what makes a force user different from any other being out there? The force. Without it every force user is reduced to being a normal being, a normal human without an advantage. This is why it makes Luke's accomplishment all that much more impressive.. The degree of difficulty is higher than that of Kun's amulet blasts, where all he has to do is get hissy and then he can shoot beams out of his ass

Indeed, they do, but someone, trained to fight Jedi, literally chucked the best of the Jedi of his time, obviously can resist the force better than a Vong, who in many cases killed Jedi, but never faced off a revered Jedi Master other than Luke.

Although its speculation and a pure assumption, its logic to assume that Kun, having fought and defeated Jedi, as well as being originally one, can resist techniques of the force from Luke, better than the Vong.

Ok, so Luke can kill an army of vong, unless you prove that draining an entire race is less impressive than that, the point is irrelevant.

We never knew how much Kun learned, we only know that he could not have applied all of his knowledge, being undefeated and unchallenged by any single individual, until every single Jedi Knight to Jedi Master cornered him and forced him to trap himself. However its very logical, that Kun having already crushed his opponents with the knowledge he had already used, that he had not demonstrated an even greater power.

From what i've read/heard, Luke is always challenged, he isn't leagues and leagues above his enemies, any of them provided they unite can take Luke down, Luke had trouble with alot of his enemies, therefore forcing him to use his best techniques as well as inventing some.

By all i have said, i mean that Kun, is much more of an unknown of his knowledge and perhaps to a certian extent his power, as well as showing that Luke needed to gain and invent newer force powers due to a constant threats, that if he slipped, he would be crushed.

In response to your post earlier, tdtd, its safe to assume that Kun learned much more of Sadow's knowledge that is displayed in the comics, and obviously what Sadow knows can create an army of illusions and an ability to chuck stars around. If Kun had learnt any of this (safe to assume he did) he would be leagues above any incarnation of Luke, yet we dont know this, so we cannot say it, however we cannot go and say, that Kun learnt little to nothing of Sadow's teachings.

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right but what makes a force user different from any other being out there? The force. Without it every force user is reduced to being a normal being, a normal human without an advantage. This is why it makes Luke's accomplishment all that much more impressive.. The degree of difficulty is higher than that of Kun's amulet blasts, where all he has to do is get hissy and then he can shoot beams out of his ass

Yes, but we're not here to score degree of difficulty. If that was the case, we can never arrive at an answer, because we do not know degree of difficulty. The end result is that Kun's beams were more destructive on a larger scale than Luke's emerald lightning.

That's assuming again, that Kun's beams would be able to go through the Vong, who were not of the force. But I won't repeat that since it's in the other thread.
W00t I agree, if Kun did learn ALL from Sadow, then I would put him above any incarnation of the Lukes we have so far. But you have to take into account that he died before he could learn all that Sadow knew, and that it's not logical to say that he had ALL of Sadow's teachings. We don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he had.

Originally posted by tdtd
That's assuming again, that Kun's beams would be able to go through the Vong, who were not of the force. But I won't repeat that since it's in the other thread.
W00t I agree, if Kun did learn ALL from Sadow, then I would put him above any incarnation of the Lukes we have so far. But you have to take into account that he died before he could learn all that Sadow knew, and that it's not logical to say that he had ALL of Sadow's teachings. We don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he had.

What he learnt and how much we dont know, we can only speculate and i agree with your last sentence, he may have learnt all of Sadow's teachings or he may not, remember that Kun was a prodigy, so its a 50/50 he learnt most of it to little of it.

Right Kun was a prodigy, so was Luke. However with Kun's quick demise, we do not know how much of his potential he reached. As you said days ago he could have reached his full potential, or he could have reached a tiny fraction. But we have to take into the fact that Kun did die so we can't say how much more powerful he was to become.

Agreed.

Great way to end the thread.