Diamond Lil vs. Spider-Man

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Blur means you can't see the person, she still could.

However, forget the blur, "moved so fast I could hardly see him" still means: "HE'S A LOT FASTER THAN ME!".

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes he was faster than him, but she still beat him

Originally posted by King_Mungi
1) She has heightened reflexes as well, and he did the same move twice she used her head.
2) He was already passed the point of no return, he was commited with the move and why does everyone think with the Spider-sense Spider-Man can't get hit?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
3) yes, but did any of them crush his skull?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
...and full fledge Rhino punches or Titania should have killed him, it's the same thing with most of Wolverine's feats. Like Batman he does things he isn't suppose to do, He ISN'T that durable, his powers don't grant him that sort of durability.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I never said Diamond Lil would win at all in this thread, but you guys are making it like Spider-Man would win so easily.

Oh, and TheKhan is right with these stunts...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg

Originally posted by wannabe
🤨???
My dictionary, my uncle (an american) and my time in England say something about 'blur' meaning: [B]not clearly visible, make or become unclear, seen with unsharp contoures, confused in appearance... (pretty close to "could hardly see", isn't it?!)
I always thought invisible means you can't see the person?! But you are the native speaker, so correct me if i'm wrong.

However, forget the blur, "moved so fast I could hardly see him" still means: "HE'S A LOT FASTER THAN ME!".

Obviously she is victorious in this story. I never questioned the fact itself, but the way it happened!
1) I did a little research and found no comment about her having heightened reflexes, but since you are the Alpha Flight expert i assume you have evidence. However, he was still so much faster, that she could hardly see him (imagine that!!!). In a fight it's not important how good your reflexes are compared to an average human, it's important how good they are compared to your opponent!
2) There is no point of no return in a move with a straight leg for bending the leg.
I certainly don't think Spidey can't get hit in general. But i do think, that a person who describes him as moving so fast she can hardly see him and dodging her punches easily shouldn't be able to hit him when you add his Spider-sense to his superior reflexes. Is it unreasonable to think so?
If you go with someones punches and not against them, you can take away a lot of it's momentum, especially when you are as fast as Spiderman.

But even when you ignore Rhino and Titania, there are still all the others i mentioned, which are undeniably his level. Spidey was a 10-tonner, easily able to smash right through a wall, through steel even, if it was not too thick. In order to use this kind of strength he has to have a comparable durability or his strength would damage his muscles, tendons, ligaments and bones. So if someone with comparable strength smashes him against a wall he could easily tear down and it kills him instantly, how believable is that?
I never did. I just pointed out how strange and unbelievable i find her victory and why. And yes i still think Spidey will most likly win

Oh, and TheKhan is right with these stunts...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg [/B]

blur usually implies you don't get a look at them, something to the effect Flash does. That's fine, I even said that.

1. You won't find much information on her, even the handbooks have inaccuricies with her entry. Just look at the scans in the respect thread to judge it. Also her reflexes are good, but Spider-Man's are better just make that clear. Also in another fight she caught Puck who speed and agility rivals Spider-man as well as Northstar.
2. Yes there is when your in full momentum going forward and your just about to kick something bending your leg isn't going to help much since your still going to go in the targets area, Diamond Lil would still have grabbed him. Remember she was in pain from the fall and he arrived, she was not 100% as the scans said.

Rhino jobs every single fight, also so what? realistically a full fledge punch from a 85 ton fist from Rhino would do serious damage to a 10-tonner. He does have a degree of durability, but not that large. No way should he be able to take a full attack from the Rhino. Also even a person weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be uberly stronger than the person to do it. Your implying Spider-Man has a high durability factor that means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything. It's not reasponsible and not likely, even the handbook does not give Spider-Man a high degree of durability. He and Wolverine are their key characters, but they are shown to do things they shouldn't be able to. Like you said the good guys win.

Yes it does work and that's what I was implying here: "She can't turn into diamond she has a bio-aura, and he can still do a few things but I will leave that up to others to point out.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
blur usually implies you don't get a look at them, something to the effect Flash does. That's fine, I even said that.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
1. You won't find much information on her, even the handbooks have inaccuricies with her entry. Just look at the scans in the respect thread to judge it. Also her reflexes are good, but Spider-Man's are better just make that clear. Also in another fight she caught Puck who speed and agility rivals Spider-man as well as Northstar.
2. Yes there is when your in full momentum going forward and your just about to kick something bending your leg isn't going to help much since your still going to go in the targets area, Diamond Lil would still have grabbed him. Remember she was in pain from the fall and he arrived, she was not 100% as the scans said.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Rhino jobs every single fight, also so what? realistically a full fledge punch from a 85 ton fist from Rhino would do serious damage to a 10-tonner. He does have a degree of durability, but not that large. No way should he be able to take a full attack from the Rhino. Also even a person weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be uberly stronger than the person to do it. Your implying Spider-Man has a high durability factor that means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything. It's not reasponsible and not likely, even the handbook does not give Spider-Man a high degree of durability. He and Wolverine are their key characters, but they are shown to do things they shouldn't be able to. Like you said the good guys win.

Yes, even a weaker person can break someones neck. But Spidey is proving to be durable enough to endure being smashed against and through walls every now and then. And within his power class it also makes perfect sense. He still gets bruises and it hurts, but he clearly survives...and that is from the beginning of his career.

I was simply pointing out why it is reasonable to assume, that Peter is at least durable enough to endure his own strength, which is a relative comment. So why are you taking this thought and turn it into an absolutum like: "...means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything."?

I completely agree with you, that the main characters repeatedly do things they usually should not be able to do - and it s*cks. But in this scenario it is DL who does something she should not be able to do, and isn't she a good "guy" too?!

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes it does work and that's what I was implying here: "She can't turn into diamond she has a bio-aura, and [b]he can still do a few things but I will leave that up to others to point out. [/B]

Sorry for not getting back to you, I went out for St.Pats and then had to work in the morning so right now I'm in rough shape. I won't be able to reply till 6 tommorow, since I'm going out again tonight and I work once again in the morning 🙁

Sorry.

Originally posted by wannabe
Ok, if you say so!
Still strange, that all other native speakers i know (and there are a lot in my family and among friends) use it as you don't get a [B]clear look at whatever, which is pretty much the same as can hardly see whatever!

1) All i'm talking about is, that DL herself describes him as being a lot faster than herself, combined with his Spider-sense, her grabbing him just like this makes this feat rather unrealistic.
When she was able to get a hold on the likes of Northstar, it was either a plot device exaggeration in favour of the stories drama, which is sometimes ok in a comic, or she is up there with Peter, Kurt, Remy and Jean-Paul when it comes to quickness. If the first is correct, well, in this forum we're discussing the characters according to their abilities, not to any plot, drama or popularity scale. If the latter should be the case, i would not argue here, but then why she says something about him like moving so fast she can hardly see him and dodging her punches easily?!
2) She clearly gets him at his ankle in the pic. So when he would have bent his leg, she would have grabbed thin air. He would still crush into her, true, but she would not have gained a hold on him.
I already dropped Rhino and the likes as admissible evidence for Peters durability one or two posts ago, so why do you keep using them to counter my arguments? 🤨 (btw, this discussion with you is yet most enjoyable)

Yes, even a weaker person can break someones neck. But Spidey is proving to be durable enough to endure being smashed against and through walls every now and then. And within his power class it also makes perfect sense. He still gets bruises and it hurts, but he clearly survives...and that is from the beginning of his career.

I was simply pointing out why it is reasonable to assume, that Peter is at least durable enough to endure his own strength, which is a relative comment. So why are you taking this thought and turn it into an absolutum like: "...means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything."?

I completely agree with you, that the main characters repeatedly do things they usually should not be able to do - and it s*cks. But in this scenario it is DL who does something she should not be able to do, and isn't she a good "guy" too?!
Spidey can still do this stunt...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg

The net does not have to stick to her to do this. [/B]

1) Once again remember she just fell 100 stories so she wasn't in top shape and prior to been tossed from the air she just had a battle with She Hulk and won. Correction on my behalf it was Aurora when she was in her mach 1 phase, and basically did the same thing used her durability to lure her in. The fight didn't end, just showed she could "catch" her. She is really quick, has been trained by Department H for years, literally the Canadian SHIELD and most cases have more advanced technology than them. She has "caught" Puck before as well, they were rivals before and his agility and speed rival Spider-Man [handbooks state that]
2) Maybe, but while Spider-Man was flying towards her we see she is reading to grab him, the way she was positoned she still could have grabbed either leg even if he did move it. No way would his spider-senses have pre-cog and warn him something like this would happen or it would kill him. In many cases when his spider-senses activate they just warn him, not tell him what's going on. However, at times the spider-senses have done that as well. The Rhino comment is an overall comment about Spider-Man does things he shouldn't be able to. Even a full force punch from Spider-Man should seriously injure his hand since he isn't that durable, but is not shown as thus.

Still, it's more realistic this way due to the things Spider-Man does is not possible with his power-set. He isn't that durable, he's marvel's key tickets and is hown thuce. Does Wolverine being shown to stab Thanos and Silver Surfer make it right? not at all. Anything can happen in a fight, been tossed into a building head first would snap your neck. His bones are not that durable, like really when multiple ton fighters get togther one punch should send the one person flying hundreds of feet, but that never happens.

because a person even weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be stronger than them. You hit them at the right place with the right amount of force you can break anything. Scorpion, Venom, Doc Ock are all stronger than him but they didn't crush his head against a wall. Even one good punch can crush a person's skull, it doesn't matter who is stronger.

Wolverine is one of the worst cases of him doing things he shouldn't be able to do. Nope, she has been a bad guy most of her career, she was even responsible for the death of Guardian [Alpha Flight]. She was a temporally ally of Alpha Flight, but I believe even recently she was shown siding with Apoc and prior to that was a secret agent for Weapon X.

Links don't work, is it the one with Blob? if so then yes it does work, even said so earlier.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
1) Once again remember she just fell 100 stories so she wasn't in top shape and prior to been tossed from the air she just had a battle with She Hulk and won. Correction on my behalf it was Aurora when she was in her mach 1 phase, and basically did the same thing used her durability to lure her in. The fight didn't end, just showed she could "catch" her. She is really quick, has been trained by Department H for years, literally the Canadian SHIELD and most cases have more advanced technology than them. She has "caught" Puck before as well, they were rivals before and his agility and speed rival Spider-Man [handbooks state that]

Thing is, in this forum we're discussing character confrontations without considering stories and drama - just plain power and it's logical consequences.
So before we turn full circle in our discussion: Is 1) or 2) the more fitting?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
2) Maybe, but while Spider-Man was flying towards her we see she is reading to grab him, the way she was positoned she still could have grabbed either leg even if he did move it. No way would his spider-senses have pre-cog and warn him something like this would happen or it would kill him. In many cases when his spider-senses activate they just warn him, not tell him what's going on. However, at times the spider-senses have done that as well.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
The Rhino comment is an overall comment about Spider-Man does things he shouldn't be able to. Even a full force punch from Spider-Man should seriously injure his hand since he isn't that durable, but is not shown as thus.
Still, it's more realistic this way due to the things Spider-Man does is not possible with his power-set. He isn't that durable, he's marvel's key tickets and is hown thuce. Does Wolverine being shown to stab Thanos and Silver Surfer make it right? not at all. Anything can happen in a fight, been tossed into a building head first would snap your neck. His bones are not that durable, like really when multiple ton fighters get togther one punch should send the one person flying hundreds of feet, but that never happens.

because a person even weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be stronger than them. You hit them at the right place with the right amount of force you can break anything. Scorpion, Venom, Doc Ock are all stronger than him but they didn't crush his head against a wall. Even one good punch can crush a person's skull, it doesn't matter who is stronger.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nope, she has been a bad guy most of her career, she was even responsible for the death of Guardian [Alpha Flight]. She was a temporally ally of Alpha Flight, but I believe even recently she was shown siding with Apoc and prior to that was a secret agent for Weapon X.

ah dude if spidey had won he would have raped her.
So Spidey bad and he had to die. Stupid death.

Originally posted by wannabe

As i already told you, there are only two possibilities:
1) She is indeed as fast as Puck and Spidey, making it sensible that she is able to grab them in the comics and i'm on the wrong track discussing this point...
[B]or
2)...she is not (and her comment indicates, that he's a lot faster) and it is just an exaggeration feat to further and nourish the story, which is often done and more often than not ok (Spidey would otherwise be virtually unbeatable for most streetlevellers, which would be most boring in the comics). Such feats are not very believable, but if the story needs it...

Thing is, in this forum we're discussing character confrontations without considering stories and drama - just plain power and it's logical consequences.

So before we turn full circle in our discussion: Is 1) or 2) the more fitting?
[/B]

Number #1 is accurate, due to she which I forgot to mention before was traveling in Llan's dimensions for a day with no food and water fighting between dimensions and got teleported into this reality where her and Alpha Flight fought the Avengers, she took on She-Hulk and won and then Rogue dropped her hundreds of stories in the air. Then finally Spider-Man appeared, she was far....FAR from being 100%

That's fine, I'm not saying Diamond Lil even wins, just the fact that this scene is believable. Spider-Man isn't that durable. Diamond Lil and Spider-Man have similar abilities, but Lil has the durability while Spider-Man has more speed.

Originally posted by wannabe [/b]
She [B]reads a person she describes like "moved so fast, i could hardly see him" two panels ago?!
"No way would his Spider-sense have precog and warn him...", the same Spidersense that makes Peter dodge bullets and energy blasts, even in close quarters...an official ability of his?
I think we're reaching a level of wishful guessing and preoccupied interpretation, that is a perfect point to stop this particular point of discussion.
[/B]

Except she has caught faster people before, so no something does not add up. It's not overall speed, but the sheer movement and the pattern that might have screwed her up.

Not really, seeing as most cases he sees the guns point blank and I have seen many cases where his spider-sense activates and DOES not tell him what the immediate danger is. I even have comics which explains the spider-sense and he says point blank it doesn't. Yet, at times it has been shown to some him. So his spider-sense is iffy at best.

That's fine with me, were getting completly off-topic.

Originally posted by wannabe [/b]
You make it sound as if you have precise and decisive data about Spiderman's durability?! As far as i can remember, the only thing that is known is, that his superpowers make him far more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to be bulletproof. The approximate degree of his durability can thus only be measured by looking at his feats and logic.

Logic dictates, that he is at least durable enough to endure his own strength.

The feats consistently show us his durability is good enough to make him well survive being thrown through walls, multiple stories falls, being punched by characters of roughly his own strength class (Goblins, Symbiotes, Doc Oc...) and those far above it (Rhino, Firelord...). Since the last feat would logically need him to be at least durable enough to also be bulletproof, and he is officially not, it can be considered an exaggeration feat, made to flourish the story and celebrate the character. This is indeed comparable to the mentioned Wolverine feats.
Leaves us with all the other durability feats that do not defy logic or official background informations about his powers. Since we're talking about super powers and have no other pieces of circumstantial evidence but these consistent feats, it is only logical and reasonable to assume, that Spiderman's durability simply is at least as high as shown.

This again strongly implies, that DL killing Peter just like that by smashing him against a wall is an exaggeration feat of hers, thus not admissible as backup, just like Spidey taking a full hit by Rhino is not admissible as one of his high end durability feats (that it is exaggeration to make Rhino able to hit Peter in the first place, is another story).[/B]

Well considering the most comics I have of one series being 250+ issues is none other than Spider-Man I think I know what I'm talking about. He is more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to survive a head crushing attack. Hell, even recently he did get his arm broke by Jigsaw

That would be wrong, since many characters who are stronger than some still lose due to skill or just overall luck. Which can be linked to Diamond Lil, since she wasn't trying to kill him just to make him stop. Like even Spider-Man has gave Namor a run for his money, he is Marvel's poster-boy they have him go against people he should't win against but he does.

Multiple story falls? No way is he that durable, the fall would he be able to survive to high of a fall he really isn't that durable. If he actually could do that, that would make him have metahuman durability and basically being bulletproof. His durability is decent, but not decent enough to fully survive a head crushing blow. Would this happen again if they fought? *shrugs* up to others to decide. Taking hits from someone your strength is different than getting your own strength being tossed straight into a brick wall.

That's fine, I don't think Diamond Lil wins all their fights it comes down to luck and skill. Diamond Lil got the better of him one time, could be different the next hence why I made this thread. However, like I mentioned earlier he did get his arm broke by Jigsaw recently

Originally posted by wannabe

Important is only who is the "good guy" in this particular story. How would you answer an according question?

Because she was never the good guy, everyone hated her except for Jeffries. So only good guys win then?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Number #1 is accurate, due to she which I forgot to mention before was traveling in Llan's dimensions for a day with no food and water fighting between dimensions and got teleported into this reality where her and Alpha Flight fought the Avengers, she took on She-Hulk and won and then Rogue dropped her hundreds of stories in the air. Then finally Spider-Man appeared, she was far....FAR from being 100%

That's fine, I'm not saying Diamond Lil even wins, just the fact that this scene is believable. Spider-Man isn't that durable. Diamond Lil and Spider-Man have similar abilities, but Lil has the durability while Spider-Man has more speed.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Except she has caught faster people before, so no something does not add up. It's not overall speed, but the sheer movement and the pattern that might have screwed her up.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well considering the most comics I have of one series being 250+ issues is none other than Spider-Man I think I know what I'm talking about. He is more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to survive a head crushing attack. Hell, even recently he did get his arm broke by Jigsaw

That would be wrong, since many characters who are stronger than some still lose due to skill or just overall luck. Which can be linked to Diamond Lil, since she wasn't trying to kill him just to make him stop. Like even Spider-Man has gave Namor a run for his money, he is Marvel's poster-boy they have him go against people he should't win against but he does.

Multiple story falls? No way is he that durable, the fall would he be able to survive to high of a fall he really isn't that durable. If he actually could do that, that would make him have metahuman durability and basically being bulletproof. His durability is decent, but not decent enough to fully survive a head crushing blow. Would this happen again if they fought? *shrugs* up to others to decide. Taking hits from someone your strength is different than getting your own strength being tossed straight into a brick wall.

So it's luck and/or exaggeration? Well, that's what i'm talking about above. It happens to do a story - fine. Does that make a feat more believable or useful for this forum?

Even some normal humans have survived a multiple story fall occasionally (though mostly not in good shape 😈 ) and when a superhuman whose physiology can withstand the pressure force of ten tons and more projected on the surface of about two hand palms (when he carries this weight) does the same it's impossible?
Ever calculated the pressure force of a 80kg body falling from 20m height and compared it to the pressure force of ten tons just lying on a body? I suggest you do!
If even real world science is on Spideys side in this particular case...

Jigsaw breaking Spideys arm without mechanical help is simply not possible, so it's exaggeration like in so many other cases of people without superpowers hurting those with. The proportional strength and resulting minimum durability difference between a normal athlete human and a ten-tonner is bigger than that between the athlete and 3 year old boy. Is the boy in any way able to break the athletes arm just with his strength?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Because she was never the good guy, everyone hated her except for Jeffries. So only good guys win then?