Originally posted by Tangible God
So Yoda and Obi-Wan KNEW he'd win? Cause if not, then it was just a guess.
I'm saying though that even for the Jedi, stuff does happen by chance. They had no way of knowing Luke would survive his encounter with Vader and the Emperor, or if he'd stay on the Light. NO way. They sent him off through sheer hope, through a GUESS that he'd win.
And I may be nitpicking, but wasn't Obi-Wan about to kill Anakin when he was unarmed anyway. When Anakin was on the table, no saber, and Obi-Wan was about to slice him BEFORE Anakin called the saber back.
And if you're right about his moral (not emotional) conduct, then he was effectively leaving to chance the fact that Anakin would die on that slope. He should have put his loyalty to the strict Jedi dogma aside in order to save Anakin from himself and the Darkside, and to save the galaxy from Anakin. He did the wrong thing letting him live like that.
Originally posted by Tangible God
He did the wrong thing letting him live like that.
Maybe, butyou could also argue that he did the right thing, when it was all said and done.
The force may have been acting through Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was always taught to trust his feelings, so maybe his feelings at that time were "don't kill him".
Yeah, it is still a bit vague and silly though.
Originally posted by Tangible God
And I may be nitpicking, but wasn't Obi-Wan about to kill Anakin when he was unarmed anyway. When Anakin was on the table, no saber, and Obi-Wan was about to slice him BEFORE Anakin called the saber back.
Yes he was about to kill him... as a full-power sith lord with all his arms, legs and force powers. On the lava pit, Anakin was a terribly wounded enemy who was probably too overcome with the pain of his injuries to use the force against Obi-Wan.
And if you're right about his moral (not emotional) conduct, then he was effectively leaving to chance the fact that Anakin would die on that slope. He should have put his loyalty to the strict Jedi dogma aside in order to save Anakin from himself and the Darkside, and to save the galaxy from Anakin. He did the wrong thing letting him live like that.
Obi-wan did the right thing AND the moral thing by letting Anakin live. The Jedi code served Obi-Wan well. If he had killed Anakin who knows how long the emperor could have served. Besides, Anakin was not the great evil of the galaxy, Palpatine was, and Vader just got ordered around by him.
A lot of things seem to happen by chance in the saga, but what's important is what we call chance, the Jedi would call the will of the Force.
Originally posted by chinabing
Yes he was about to kill him... as a full-power sith lord with all his arms, legs and force powers. On the lava pit, Anakin was a terribly wounded enemy who was probably too overcome with the pain of his injuries to use the force against Obi-Wan.
There is no emotion; there is peace
There is no death; there is the Force
That is what the code says! So that is two things Obi-Wan did wrong. He was strugling with his emotions, he was not at peace. To kill Anakin would have been a moral thing. It wouldn't be wrong...afteral, there is no death, there is only the Force, so ending his suffering would be moral and very Jedi thing to do!
Originally posted by chinabing
Obi-wan did the right thing AND the moral thing by letting Anakin live. The Jedi code served Obi-Wan well. If he had killed Anakin who knows how long the emperor could have served. Besides, Anakin was not the great evil of the galaxy, Palpatine was, and Vader just got ordered around by him.A lot of things seem to happen by chance in the saga, but what's important is what we call chance, the Jedi would call the will of the Force.
Well what Obi-Wan did was not the will of the Force, but his own choice cause he was struggling with his emotions...if he killed Anakin, he would still train Luke to deal with the emperor. And if Luke wasn't struggling with his emotions about his father, he might have completed his training so he would have a better chance against the emperor.
Originally posted by chinabingYes, but nonetheless... defenseless, unarmed. The "heat of the moment" shouldn't be in a Jedi's vocabulary.
Yes he was about to kill him... as a full-power sith lord with all his arms, legs and force powers. On the lava pit, Anakin was a terribly wounded enemy who was probably too overcome with the pain of his injuries to use the force against Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by chinabingObi may not have killed Anakin, but he did endanger the galaxy. He could not forsee the role Vader would play in the Emperor's downfall. And because of that, Obi left to chance that Vader wouldn't live to do what he did in those 24 years. And he was wrong.
Obi-wan did the right thing AND the moral thing by letting Anakin live. The Jedi code served Obi-Wan well. If he had killed Anakin who knows how long the emperor could have served. Besides, Anakin was not the great evil of the galaxy, Palpatine was, and Vader just got ordered around by him.A lot of things seem to happen by chance in the saga, but what's important is what we call chance, the Jedi would call the will of the Force.
And like Cascador said, he went against his own teachings by allowing a mortally wounded being suffer. A coup-de-grace would have been VERY merciful compared to what Anakin was going through.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Yes, but nonetheless... defenseless, unarmed. The "heat of the moment" shouldn't be in a Jedi's vocabulary.
But Anakin at that moment was not defenseless if he had the full use of his sith faculties! When you compare that moment to Anakin on the lava pit, there is no way you can say killing anakin on the table would have been morally equivalent. Absolutely not. Anakin was not a wounded horse to be put out of its misery, nor was he like the chic boxer who wanted to pull the plug. Obi-Wan thought Anakin was already dead. That's why he left, and that it was too dangerous to either skitter down and resuce him nor stab him with the lightsaber. The jedi don't "Finish Him" like in that moronic video game.
Obi may not have killed Anakin, but he did endanger the galaxy. He could not forsee the role Vader would play in the Emperor's downfall. And because of that, Obi left to chance that Vader wouldn't live to do what he did in those 24 years. And he was wrong.
The galaxy was already in danger. Obi-wan's task was to destroy the sith, that's what he thought he did. He didn't leave it to chance, he left it to the will of the Force! There's no such thing as mere luck or chance with the Jedi!
And like Cascador said, he went against his own teachings by allowing a mortally wounded being suffer. A coup-de-grace would have been VERY merciful compared to what Anakin was going through.
We don't know that. Again, it would have been too dangerous to go down the scree to stab him. Anakin could have grabbed him too. I don't remember anything in the films about Jedi not allowing a mortally wounded being to suffer. This isn't Million Dollar Baby.
It is not what you do as a Jedi. It is how!
If at peace, calmly and thoughtfully, a jedi sees that the only best way to deal with the situation is to behead someone or let someone die of his wounds, then by all means thats the right thing to do.
Look: "But how do I know the good side from the bad?"
Yoda: "You will know! When you're calm, at peace, passive..."
When someone is whining about the "letting someone suffer... oww", he or she is thinking with an emotion! There is no emotion, there is peace. Sympathy is good, but it cant override clear thinking.
Anakin "saved" Palpatine from getting sliced due to his sympathy and love for Padme.
And about those Anakins visions...
Yoda: "You must not go!"
Look: "But Han and Leia will die if I dont!"
Obi1: "You dont know that."
Obi1: "Even Yoda cant see that fate."
....
Yoda: "Always in motion is the future."
So Anakin let emotions override his better judgement. And the rest is history...
Originally posted by chinabingTrue. Games that do that piss me off.
But Anakin at that moment was not defenseless if he had the full use of his sith faculties! When you compare that moment to Anakin on the lava pit, there is no way you can say killing anakin on the table would have been morally equivalent. Absolutely not. Anakin was not a wounded horse to be put out of its misery, nor was he like the chic boxer who wanted to pull the plug. Obi-Wan thought Anakin was already dead. That's why he left, and that it was too dangerous to either skitter down and resuce him nor stab him with the lightsaber. The jedi don't "Finish Him" like in that moronic video game.
Originally posted by chinabing The galaxy was already in danger. Obi-wan's task was to destroy the sith, that's what he thought he did. He didn't leave it to chance, he left it to the will of the Force! There's no such thing as mere luck or chance with the Jedi!It would have been foolhardy to go down there, yes. But could he not Force push him in? He could see Vader's rage, he was struggling to get back up. What if he made it? He may live, he may be rescued, he may do what Darth Vader did.Originally posted by chinabing [/i]We don't know that. Again, it would have been too dangerous to go down the scree to stab him. Anakin could have grabbed him too. I don't remember anything in the films about Jedi not allowing a mortally wounded being to suffer. This isn't Million Dollar Baby. [/B]
Oh wait, that happened. And why? Because Obi-Wan left it to chance that Vader would die there, that half the Sith threat would die with him. He treats the Force's will like Karma. That he KNOWS it will happen, and it will happen NOW. And that is a mistake, as we can plainly see from the results. Vader lived, when Obi-Wan had a perfect oppurtunity to kill him. And for his emotions, and for his trust in the Force's will, he doomed the galaxy to 23 years of opression under him.
And Vader or no, I understand the Emperor is the real threat. But killing a general of a dictator is still VERY good.
As I said before he didn't leave it to chance he left it to the will of the force, with the guiding priciples of Jedi Knighthood to guide his actions.
One of those principles is not to finish off a mortally wounded man. He thought leaving him there was enough, that he had left him there to die.
Now I don't doubt that perhaps Obi-Wan regretted his 'Vader Lives' decision in his discussions with Luke on Dagobah, which is why he was so insistent on Luke facing Vader again.
Due to the fact it was against his morals to kill Anakin at that time, that he thought he would die already, that it might kill him to go down the skree and stab him, (again, that was against his morals to do something like that so the point that killing Anakin safely with a force push or throwing a rock at his head or throwing a lightsaber into his chest is really moot), leaving Anakin there was the right and moral decision.
Besides, Obi-Wan's Jedi principles helped save the galaxy! Sure it took years and the deaths of that strangled rebel captain on the tantavie and a few clumsy Imperial captains, but it was worth it when Vader destroyed Palpatine. It all worked out.
That's why you leave it to the will of the Force.
As controversial as it is, was Mace not about to finish off the unarmed Palpatine? A little precedent there.
Morals are a key part to life, as are emotions, both of which are factors in Obi-Wan's choice to let Anakin live. However, in times of crisis, such as this, he should have put aside those feelings for the good and benefit of others. Like I said, he had NO way of knowing that Vader would be the Emperor's ultimate downfall. At that time, he simply let his emotions get in the way--- something which would be condemned by the Jedi.
His actions led to the saviour of the galaxy, in the long run. And it isn't appropriate to get into "what ifs" should Vader have died that day. But at that moment in time, in that year, on that slope on Mustafar, Obi-Wan put the galaxy in great risk. I'm sounding like a broken record, but he did NOT know that leaving Vader alive would be good. (potentially remember) It was his INTENTION to let Vader die naturally, leaving it to chance that he would, not the will of the Force.
Obi-Wan has never struck me as a person who treats the Force as religiously as that, putting blind faith in it. He either did that, which is a mistake, or he was stupid. And he's definitley not stupid. So you can say it was his mistake TO put trust in the will of the Force, hoping by the Force's will that Vader would die.
let's think about Anakin killing Dooku...Dooku was like Anakin defenseless....why was it wrong to kill him but why would it not be wrong to kill Anakin....Dooku wasn't in pain and suffering, he could be taken captive for interrogation easily...and as you can see when Anakin returns the Jedi didn't much care that Dooku was dead.
Anakin on the other hand...why interrogate him? They know everything (only not why he really turned to the Dark Side, but in case of saving the galaxy that was pretty much irrelivant) He was once again in pain and suffering, so why wouldn't it be a moral thing to do to end his misery! Either he should have killed Anakin or he should have taken Anakin with him. And if Obi-Wan was scared to finish him him off as you claim, why was Anakin thinking later after he killed Dooku that he could still take him captive? Wouldn't Dooku also be able to slay them even if he is wounded...and he wasn't as badly wounded as Anakin! No the reason Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin didn't have to do anything with the Will of the Force or the Jedi Code. If he is so loyal to the Jedi Code, why was he using the Dark Side during the fight...no it were Obi-Wan's emotions. He was certainly not at peace, cause you could still see he was frustrated on Padmé's ship. And he wasn't thinking like Yoda...Yoda knew that he wasn't Anakin anymore, he was Darth Vader, but Obi-Wan didn't see it or didn't want to see it, cause he was still calling him Anakin, all because of his attachment (and we know that is dangerous, but in case of master and apprentice, there has to be a bond, but then again you never suspect immediatly that your apprentice would turn to the Dark Side)
Obi-Wan wasn't at peace...Obi-Wan was strugling with his emotions, another mistake of Yoda to sent him to Anakin. But he didn't have a choice. And didn't Yoda said that the Sith had to be destroyed? Leaving him there with the possibility that he might survive is not really what Yoda was asking of him. So he ignored what his former-master said...Not very loyal of him. But I don't blame him for the love he had for Anakin. It has nothing to do with the Will of the Force...it was certainly morraly wrong. It was his love for Anakin that stopped him.
The Anakin-killing-Dooku and Obi-Wan-not-killing-Anakin duality is very important to explore. Anakin turned to the dark side in killing Dooku, and Obi-Wan didn't by not killing Anakin. You could say that Anakin was seduced into killing Dooku, but while he was still a young jedi, he was still in control of his actions.
Anakin regretted killing Dooku because it wasn't the Jedi way. Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin because it *was* the Jedi way.
Both men in both situations had opportunities to kill helpless, wounded Sith Lords. Neither Jedi had knowledge of what the future would bring. Which Jedi turned to the Dark Side? What more proof do you need?
Dooku= not suffering, almost harmless, defenceless, war prisoner
Anakin= In pain, suffering, intolerable pain, hopeless, potential treat to the galaxy
you see the difference? To kill a harmless person isn't the Jedi way...to kill someone in suffering and intolerable pain who still could be a treat to the galaxy...that would have been the Jedi way....it would also have been what Yoda asked...if Yoda's wisdom isn't the Jedi way...if Mace Windu's wisdom isn't the Jedi way? Anakin didn't agree that killing Sidious wouldn't be the Jedi way just because he needed him and he usd that as an excuse! Mace Windu knew better and knew the Sith had to be killed...Anakin was a Sith..."Destroy the Sith we must" Yoda said...
Obi-Wan didn't obey his orders....which is certainly not loyal and was a big mistake.
He didn't do what Yoda asked of him...he didn't end a suffering man from total misery. He was in conflict with this emotions, he wasn't at peace. He couldn't see the truth that Anakin was no more, which is not very rational or wise...it's all a big mistake!
Killing Anakin there would have been a "quick and easy way" to solve the thing. The things just got too severe to be toyed with by having infinite patience.
- "If you end your training now, If you choose a quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become........... an AGENT OF EVIL! =O"
- "Patience!"