The Good Star Wars/bad Star Wars

Originally posted by Alliance

The PT and OT are different trilogies. Apparently you don't remember how political the OT was...post apocalyptic grunge industrial imperialsm? Its showed the world as a duty truth, that here in "the future" the world is real, no stainless steel walls and zippy spacecraft, rotting dirty junk. THe rise of the "rebels" (post-vietnam counterculture vs an opressive overmilitarized semi-fascist government). Our hero: the little desert farmboy, a populist counterculture "simple-life" kid who makes it. It was never "just an adventure story" Thats a disrespect to Star Wars The OT was perfect for its time and was all about the politics of the late 70s and early 80's.

The PT is the OT evolved/grown up. Things arent black and white anymore. This isn't some childhood rebellion. The PT is about growing up. This is the 21st century. We are discussing a neo-romantic movement in the midst of overpoliticization, war, and the breakdown of cold war ideals. The PT is about greys. The jedi ideal that you prize from the OT don't work here. You cnat see good, wou can't see evil. Your trapped in a society where everything is planned where you aare destined to achieve an objective because you believe that to be true (Anakin's prophecy). Its about living in a destabilizing society. The PT is about complicated current sociopolitical theory.

If you'd like to talk more/back up more let me know...but you have really misjudged both the OT and the PT. Sorry for the book.

Don't get me wrong, those are some damn good points, but as movies, the Prequels just aren't that good. Just because they're complicated, philosophical and have more deeper meanings than the Original Trilogy doesn't necessesarily make them better movies. The CHARACTER just isn't there, or was there originally, and got lost amidst the contrivances and "deeper meanings", and that, quite rightly, is what matters to most people. It's why the OT is generally regarded as better.

Star Wars: Good!

Fanboys: Bad!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
That's good stuff dude. You got a brain on ya...love your sigs too.

BUT!!!

GOOD STAR WARS!: OT humour: "We're all fine...here...now...thank you. How are you?"

BAD STAR WARS!: PT humour: "Another happy landing."

I mean, really.

Thanks!. lol...I think both quotes are completely horrible. The comedy is so revolting, it makes me laugh. THAT is what's funny to me, especially with the way Harrison Ford dances around the little microphone and with McGregor's stupid smirk. I think my dog could come up better dialogue than that. WOOF! WOOF WOOF!

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Don't get me wrong, those are some damn good points, but as movies, the Prequels just aren't that good. Just because they're complicated, philosophical and have more deeper meanings than the Original Trilogy doesn't necessesarily make them better movies.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm trying to demonstrate that the OT is just as complicated, philospohical, and meaningful as the PT. We just haven't had the years to actually gague a true analysis. The OT has become "classic" Star Wars and people hold it in high regard for that reason. Yet, most people like ESB better than ANH when ANH was an instant classic itself. I suggest that by examining the OT in the context of the PT...there is a lot there that is similar and is not part of the "classic" view of Star Wars. I HARDLY think the PT is superior to the OT, I just see them in them in the same context relative to their times.

Originally posted by OB1-adobe
Star Wars: Good!

Fanboys: Bad!

clap

Originally posted by Alliance
The comedy is so revolting, it makes me laugh.

I think the OT had the perfect blend of natural charm and clever humour. Nothing seemed forced.

The only time I remember something actually being both clever and funny in the PT was in "Clones" when the music stopped as Padme pulled away from Anakin's kiss on Naboo.

Funnily enough not a lot of people got that. Plus, was great to see Lucas finally taking the piss.

Getting side-tracked here...

GOOD STAR WARS!!: Max Rebo Band
BAD STAR WARS!!: Max Rebo Band w/Joh Yowza (yes that Men in Black alien from the SE!)

...for all of you Fanboys that are whining about no Good or Bad Star Wars...chew on that!

The PT and OT are different trilogies. Apparently you don't remember how political the OT was...post apocalyptic grunge industrial imperialsm?

Of course it was! But was it as glorified as in the PT? No, it wasn't. It was simplified in the OT, because really, Star Wars ITSELF may be about politics, but the complexity of a diversified Republic was not brought up every 5 seconds. Because the people did not care for that.

Its showed the world as a duty truth, that here in "the future" the world is real, no stainless steel walls and zippy spacecraft, rotting dirty junk. THe rise of the "rebels" (post-vietnam counterculture vs an opressive overmilitarized semi-fascist government). Our hero: the little desert farmboy, a populist counterculture "simple-life" kid who makes it. It was never "just an adventure story" Thats a disrespect to Star Wars The OT was perfect for its time and was all about the politics of the late 70s and early 80's.

Again, the actuality of the politics means nothing, how it was portrayed is the important part. In the OT, we're not stuck hearing negotiations with Seperatists or spending time listening to some mentally disabled frog speak to a galactic senate. We know there is a political struggle in the OT, but its simply not as involved as the politics in the PT.

The PT is the OT evolved/grown up.

Really? TPM was remarkably childish. It's not Star Wars grown, it's Star Wars made crappy.

Things arent black and white anymore.

Really? Only in ROTS are things not black and white. In TPM/AotC we have the "evil" Sepepratists, "evil" droids and "evil" Sith, we have "good" Jedi, "good" Republic and "good" clones. Things are black and white for the most part.

This isn't some childhood rebellion. The PT is about growing up.
No, it's not.

This is the 21st century. We are discussing a neo-romantic movement in the midst of overpoliticization, war, and the breakdown of cold war ideals.

We are? We see a lame Seperatist movement that does not make the audience consider their ideals, "war" only begins at the very end of AotC, and we have War in the OT btw. Better ones.

The PT is about greys. The jedi ideal that you prize from the OT don't work here. You cnat see good, wou can't see evil.

We can, maybe you couldn't. The Jedi = Good, The Sith (Palpatine) = Bad. Simple, isn't it? The Republic is the only "gray" thing in the PT. And it's so uninteresting in the first place the audience would have been hard-pressed to care.

Your trapped in a society where everything is planned where you aare destined to achieve an objective because you believe that to be true (Anakin's prophecy). Its about living in a destabilizing society. The PT is about complicated current sociopolitical theory.

Again, these ideas are only introduced in ROTS. Intoduced terribly, BTW.

Seriously, watch the OT then watch the PT. Minus Sith, you'll notice the rapid decline in quality.

Originally posted by OB1-adobe
Star Wars: Good!

Fanboys: Bad!

More accurate words were never spoken..........

i kinda hafta agree with Ocelot.

The OT showed.

The PT told.

Because the OT seemed "simpler," it had "deeper" meanings. I showed my mom (who despises sci-fi and aliens and films about space, etc) both the OT and the PT for the first time. Guess which one she enjoyed more? The OT.

oh here's one:

Good Star Wars: way Yoda talked in OT
Bad Star Wars: way Yoda "forced himself to sound like Yoda" in the PT

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think the OT had the perfect blend of natural charm and clever humour. Nothing seemed forced.

The only time I remember something actually being both clever and funny in the PT was in "Clones" when the music stopped as Padme pulled away from Anakin's kiss on Naboo.

Funnily enough not a lot of people got that. Plus, was great to see Lucas finally taking the piss.

Originally posted by Tangible God
HA! Finally someone who found that funny. No one I know saw the humour in that.

Must be a Canada thing, eh?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
[B]I don't get how people don't like the PT, its Star Wars, as much as the OT is Star Wars.

Thank you.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I don't get how people don't like the PT, its Star Wars, as much as the OT is Star Wars.

...only done in such a way that makes people say "that movie sucked!"

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...only done in such a way that makes people say "that movie sucked!"

Originally posted by darthvader_fan
that movie did not suck i dont know what the f**k your talking about

Sorry man...that's what people say.

I don't understand how some of you idiots can be like:

"yeah Darth maul was kick ass, and the pod race was awesome, cool lightsaber fights, and a lot of the story was interesting....but yeah that movie just sucked though."

Originally posted by OB1-adobe
I don't understand how some of you idiots can be like:

"yeah Darth maul was kick ass, and the pod race was awesome, cool lightsaber fights, and a lot of the story was interesting....but yeah that movie just sucked though."

WOAH!...lay off the ad-hominum comments.

There is more to a movie than just simply thinking its good. I think all the SW movies excluding ANH were bad movies...they are not well made! They don't hold up as a film, espcially due to their atrocius acting and childlike dialogue (ESB "nerf herder"? ROTS "i love you...no i love you...no i love you...no i love you"😉. YET...the reason I like them so much are the concepts presented: art, cinematography, cultural statement, visual impact, thematic impact, and universe (these are my personal favorites which I'm sure ar shared by others)

There is more to a movie than it being a good piece of film. Maul represents an amazing character design (for a new role that had not been previously in the SW films). The podrace has incredible sound and camera movements (like the ANH trench run). The TPM lightsaber fight was more advanced than anything we had seen the the OT (which is stimulating visually). The move had a good plot (though Lucas CLEARLY did not handle it well and focused on the wrong things).

In short, there are aspects of the films that make SW wonderful films that we charish. That does not make them a good movie... i have no problem liking crappy films like Star Wars because I think they're great and offer us so much more than the artistic experience of a good film. I hold different standards.

Ok, here is my response R.Ocelot. Sorry to ALL for the shame of the longest post ever. And a major apology for a double post but this argument had to be seperate.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
[b] The PT and OT are different trilogies. Apparently you don't remember how political the OT was...post apocalyptic grunge industrial imperialsm?

Of course it was! But was it as glorified as in the PT? No, it wasn't. It was simplified in the OT, because really, Star Wars ITSELF may be about politics, but the complexity of a diversified Republic was not brought up every 5 seconds. Because the people did not care for that.[/B]

The OT did discuss politics frequently, but you have to remember that the politics are military suppression of rebellious factions. ANH- there is a whole conversation about the dissolution of the Galactic Senate and how the emperor intends to maintain control. Politics is just taking place through military action and not through republican debate. The supression of a rebellion is just a different form of politics that involves war and doesn't involve talking (which makes it more appealing to some people). The complexity of the Republic is clearly paralleld by the simplicity of the Empire.

You are right to say that politics is more prevelant in the PT...but Lucas cut a lot of good political stuff. The points he made were appropriate, especially since politics is how the Empire came to be...Lucas should have streamlined the sections and pack more into thesee short sequences. (but i also think they are supposed to be slow to show how painful democracies can be...look at the USA)

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
[b][b]The PT is the OT evolved/grown up.[/B]

Forgive my poor choice of words. The charaters in the OT are more mature...the concepts, discussed below are not. Children tend to see things as yes no answers (Rebels Good:Empire Bad...OT Good😛T Bad [if I may be so bold to call such things childish]). Adults tend to see things in shades of grey.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
[b][b]Things arent black and white anymore.

Really? Only in ROTS are things not black and white. In TPM/AotC we have the "evil" Sepepratists, "evil" droids and "evil" Sith, we have "good" Jedi, "good" Republic and "good" clones. Things are black and white for the most part.

This is the 21st century. We are discussing a neo-romantic movement in the midst of overpoliticization, war, and the breakdown of cold war ideals.

We are? We see a lame Separatist movement that does not make the audience consider their ideals, "war" only begins at the very end of AotC, and we have War in the OT btw. Better ones.

The PT is about greys. The jedi ideals that you prize from the OT don't work here. You can’t see good, you can't see evil.

We can, maybe you couldn't. The Jedi = Good, The Sith (Palpatine) = Bad. Simple, isn't it? The Republic is the only "gray" thing in the PT. And it's so uninteresting in the first place the audience would have been hard-pressed to care.[/B]

I will now address the points above. First, there is no we...speak for yourself and let others state their own opinions.

Major military conflict began with the invasion of Naboo (TPM) which led to the arms race which led to the Clone Wars. I wouldn’t consider the jedi to be good. A jedi ordered a Clone Army that allowed the Clone Wars to be fought. The jedi did not act peacefully to confront the separatist threat. The Republic, led by the Jedi invaded Geonosis and began the Clone War. The jedi, after doing nothing, traded in their ideals and went to war. That doesn’t seem like a “good” thing to me. Look at how many jedi fell to the darkisde during the Clone Wars...thats not a product of them adhering to thier supposedly “good” ideals. The jedi failed because they were narrowminded and limited by the code. In many ways it was their fault that the Clone Wars happened.

You say the Republic is “grey” and “uninteresting”. The Republic is presented in this way because it is supposed to be a failing form of government. Is it “bad” for the sith and the separatists to replace this crumbling corrupt government with one that will be more effective and delocalized? Padmé specifically asks Anakin in ROTS if they are on the wrong side of this war. The Jedi clearly think the Republic is not. I don’t think that opinon is “good.” Padmé has it right and is specifically and constantly questioning the rationale of this war. The Republic and the GAR (you described the clones as “good”) become the agent of “evil” that you see in the OT. The PT is supposed to make you think that the Republic is the “good side” and that the jedi and etc. are “good” people fighting for “good”causes against “bad” people with “bad” motives. I don’t feel this analysis holds up.

You do make a point that Palpatine is evil. I will give that some credit, but we don’t really know his motives. He has a vengeance against the jedi, but he also says that “we will have peace.” I don’t know if he made such comments to seduce Anakin or if he actually felt this way. I don’t think we can tell given the current information. Perhaps this bears further scrutiny. If he did actually feel that he was helping the universe by supplanting the Republic...perhaps we can’t make him out to be so evil. On the other hand, maybe he just had an insatiable lust for power.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Seriously, watch the OT then watch the PT. Minus Sith, you'll notice the rapid decline in quality.

I have watched all the star wars movies countless of times. They are my favorite films. The PT is more childlike, but I don’t consider the PT to be lesser films or lower in quality. Especially in the cinematography of the PT, Lucas had the option to do all the shots he wanted. He is an excellent film editor and can really gauge movement across the screen (compare ANH to 2001 and see the difference in the movement of the shots! WOW! No wonder ANH was a film revolution) I think the things I have described above and in my previous posts show that the PT and the OT are actually both great trilogies for the same reasons.

Ahhhh! My thread is deteriorating into Star Wars debating jibberish!

...some good points though I must admit.

BUT...

GOOD STAR WARS: Big climactic battles!

BAD STAR WARS: Big climactic battles that end with a little kid accidentally flying up to the bad guys' starship. blowing it up and saving the day...(and you wonder why people think the new Star Wars movies suck).

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Ahhhh! My thread is deteriorating into Star Wars debating jibberish!

...some good points though I must admit.

BUT...

GOOD STAR WARS: Big climactic battles!

BAD STAR WARS: Big climactic battles that end with a little kid accidentally flying up to the bad guys' starship. blowing it up and saving the day...(and you wonder why people think the new Star Wars movies suck).

YES!....

that was stupid... one of the best quotes prior to episode III was...when showing the EIII space battle was something along the lines of "at first, the large number of capitol ships might seem meanacing, unitl you realize that one of these was accidentally destroyed by and 8 year old" 😆

(but the PT doesnt suck 😄, and sorry for gunking up your thread!)

Good Star Wars: Ewoks being cute and furry and accepting cookies (from Leia)
Bad Star Wars: Ewoks were going to roast Han, Luke, and Chewbacca alive to eat them....that's f*cked up