Vrook vs Darth Malak

Originally posted by Wesker
First, I played The Empire Strikes Back for SNES... omg... Did Luke beat a million storm troopers and jawas? I played Jedi Academy... omg... did Jaden Korr kill hundreds of storm troopers, mercenaries, sand people, and saber users? They must be GODS!

Really, there IS such a thing as a [b]game play mechanic. There is no CANONICAL evidence of Revan defeating anyone other than Bastila and Malak on the Star Forge. What does that mean? It means he could have possibly snuck past them, tricked them, let the jedi knights take the brunt of the attack, butchered them all... we don't know. But instead of assuming that he DID kill all of them and that the enemies we fight in game aren't just filler and part of the gameplay mechanic is called being ridiculous. I mean, if you want to take gameplay mechanics as canon, none of the vendors had wares on their shelves, yet when you talk to them, three dozens weapons and items pop up. Apparently, they keep all their wares in a small subdimensional pocket. zomG! teh gaem kanon!

Second, provide the logic that states conclusively that Vandar cannot be powerful enough to defeat Revan or hold his own in similar circumstances. Until you do that, you have NO case.

Third, don't try and "read into" my posts and procure shit I didn't say. I pointed out before that I wasn't voted for or against Vandar; only pointing out that you have no case either way. You cannot just make a mound of assumptions on Vandar's power, say he could never hold a candle to Revan, and then say Malak pwns because of that. [/B]

1. Yes ofcourse there is such a thing as game mechanics....But its documented in the game dialouge that Malak sends all his available troops to slow Revan, all his sith apprentices, and the'full power of the star forge' and Revan plowed through it all.

2. When is any argument on this forum ever *conclusively* proven??? All Im arguing is that making a few logical inferences will tell you its much easier to believe Vandarr is weaker than Revan, as opposed to stronger. This is the sort of battle where you need to make assumptions, but based on the data we have I believe my theory is correct.

3. "Not really. Yoda was probably capable of destroying Darth Vader or even rechallenging Sidious in the twenty years of Imperial rule, but he didn't. Why? Because he shines like the sun in the Force. Hence why he had to hide on a planet like Dagobah. Even Vandar himself points out that the jedi council is gathered in large numbers on Dantooine both for protection from the Sith army and because they are partially hidden there. It's entirely possible that Vandar didn't attack Revan because he would be a priority target for every ship and two-bit soldier in the sector."

You made comparisons to Yoda right here, I just wanted to point out that even though they are of the same species, Yoda has nothing to do with this in relation to Vandarrs power.

And I have no case? Revan went into the star forge and nothing at all could stop him, If Vandarr was as powerful as Revan why didnt he do the same thing? Because he knew he was no match for Malak, Revan was their only hope in a desperate situation.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Yes ofcourse there is such a thing as game mechanics....But its documented in the game dialouge that Malak sends all his available troops to slow Revan, all his sith apprentices, and the'full power of the star forge' and Revan plowed through it all.

He sends mere goons that he knows won't slow him but for a bit. And really, again there's no canonical evidence that he beat them all fairly or even confronted them, and there's no comparison to any KotOR jedi master not being able to replicate that. It's Feat Wars.

2. When is any argument on this forum ever *conclusively* proven??? All Im arguing is that making a few logical inferences will tell you its much easier to believe Vandarr is weaker than Revan, as opposed to stronger. This is the sort of battle where you need to make assumptions, but based on the data we have I believe my theory is correct.

I'm pointing out that you've never seen Vandar kill anyone or fight them; how can you judge his ability? I've never seen Adolf Hitler fire a gun; can I conclude that because he didn't go to Moscow and butcher Stalin that he can't shoot? Absence of proof is not proof of abscence. Vandar is an UNKNOWN. You cannot effectively say an unknown is weaker than X, because you can't quantify the unknown's level of power. All you're operating on are unfounded assumptions and opinions. This is NOT arguing objectively.

3. "Not really. Yoda was probably capable of destroying Darth Vader or even rechallenging Sidious in the twenty years of Imperial rule, but he didn't. Why? Because he shines like the sun in the Force. Hence why he had to hide on a planet like Dagobah. Even Vandar himself points out that the jedi council is gathered in large numbers on Dantooine both for protection from the Sith army and because they are partially hidden there. It's entirely possible that Vandar didn't attack Revan because he would be a priority target for every ship and two-bit soldier in the sector."

You made comparisons to Yoda right here, I just wanted to point out that even though they are of the same species, Yoda has nothing to do with this in relation to Vandarrs power.

You know what they say about "assume", right? I never once drew the conclusion that Vandar was of Yoda's species, therefore he must be uber. Ever. Not even close. The point I was getting across was that while Yoda was in a similar situation and he was capable of taking down one or both sith lords in personal combat, he couldn't GET close enough. He had to maintian a low profile. Same thing with Vandar. So your assumption doesn't fit.

And I have no case? Revan went into the star forge and nothing at all could stop him, If Vandarr was as powerful as Revan why didnt he do the same thing? Because he knew he was no match for Malak, Revan was their only hope in a desperate situation.

lol...

Firstly, you can't quantify the powers that were arrayed before Revan and then turn around and compare them to an unknown who was not a benefactor of the same circumstances and go "OMfg Vandar sux cuz of this!". Godan Freeman in Half Life was the only person in a position to find and kill the leader of the alien race in the original game. Was he the only person capable of it? No. But no one else benefitted from fate like he did.

Second? No case. You can't show me how Revan stacks up against Vandar personally. Vandar doesn't even draw his lightsaber in the series, and information on Revan is limited to hearsay and Feat Wars. How is this an objective, unbiased speculation, GV?

The events of the Star Forge are meant to prove something. Slaughtering countless Sith speaks for something, its not simply a feat war, its used to establish and support that Revan was a powerful duelist. The other Jedi knights or Jedi masters have done nothing to even prove that that they could defeat an army of dark Jedi or uber droids.

-Vrook, he required the Exile's help to defeat the army of mercenaries

-Kavar, he needed the Exile's help to take out Nihilus' goons and Vaklu's troops

- Malak ordered the release of ALL the Star Forge's defenses and EVERY single one of his dark Jedi. Revan with the help of two companions (not even helpful since canonically an army of Jedi and Star Forge droids would have raped his companions), defeated them all.

I'm pointing out that you've never seen Vandar kill anyone or fight them; how can you judge his ability? I've never seen Adolf Hitler fire a gun; can I conclude that because he didn't go to Moscow and butcher Stalin that he can't shoot? Absence of proof is not proof of abscence. Vandar is an UNKNOWN. You cannot effectively say an unknown is weaker than X, because you can't quantify the unknown's level of power. All you're operating on are unfounded assumptions and opinions. This is NOT arguing objectively.

What the hell is this man? How do you establish that Exar Kun could defeat Vandaar? We don't even see Vandaar with a lightsaber!

Can you guarantee that Vandaar was far greater than his contemporaries? Vrook, Zez, and Kavar all needed the Exile to help them in their dirty work. Revan for the most part, did the job on the Star Forge himself. Remember also that Malak defeated Kavar, a figure akin to Mace Windu, credited for being the best duelist in the order. Now are you trying to contradict canon evidence by saying the Vandaar is > Kavar in lightsaber dueling, an area that is accounted for in determining the strongest, especially for a Jedi?

Zephiel, besides being a Revan fanboy, I'd like to point out only three problems with your post; three because I won't waste more time on it than that.

1- You CANNOT substantiate that Revan killed by himself (That is, indicating his true battle melee prowess) "countless" Sith (Since there were next to no real Sith there; just dark jedi) in the Battle of the Star Forge. Why? There are NO cutscenes of Revan fighting any of them! Nowhere in KotOR II does it say "And Revan hacked through hordes of dark jedi on the Star Forge." Can you even show me how powerful the dark jedi would be who were just sitting around on the Star Forge, playing with themselves before he got there?

2- Nice assumption that the jedi masters NEEDED the Exile, hence Vandar must suck. I absolutely HATE KotOR because of this kind of bullshit mentality.

3- I am not arguing FOR Vandar! I've said he's an UNKNOWN. Look that term up if it stumps you guys. You are claiming that Vandar must be generalized with his peers who you then assume suck based on the Exile who is assumed to be lower than Revan who is in turn living in the house that Jack built. Seriously. Stop assuming, you're all not proving a damn thing argumentally.

Originally posted by Wesker
He sends mere goons that he knows won't slow him but for a bit. And really, again there's no canonical evidence that he beat them all fairly or even confronted them, and there's no comparison to any KotOR jedi master not being able to replicate that. It's Feat Wars.

I'm pointing out that you've never seen Vandar kill anyone or fight them; how can you judge his ability? I've never seen Adolf Hitler fire a gun; can I conclude that because he didn't go to Moscow and butcher Stalin that he can't shoot? Absence of proof is not proof of abscence. Vandar is an UNKNOWN. You cannot effectively say an unknown is weaker than X, because you can't quantify the unknown's level of power. All you're operating on are unfounded assumptions and opinions. This is NOT arguing objectively.

You know what they say about "assume", right? I never once drew the conclusion that Vandar was of Yoda's species, therefore he must be uber. Ever. Not even close. The point I was getting across was that while Yoda was in a similar situation and he was capable of taking down one or both sith lords in personal combat, he couldn't GET close enough. He had to maintian a low profile. Same thing with Vandar. So your assumption doesn't fit.

lol...

Firstly, you can't quantify the powers that were arrayed before Revan and then turn around and compare them to an unknown who was not a benefactor of the same circumstances and go "OMfg Vandar sux cuz of this!". Godan Freeman in Half Life was the only person in a position to find and kill the leader of the alien race in the original game. Was he the only person capable of it? No. But no one else benefitted from fate like he did.

Second? No case. You can't show me how Revan stacks up against Vandar personally. Vandar doesn't even draw his lightsaber in the series, and information on Revan is limited to hearsay and Feat Wars. How is this an objective, unbiased speculation, GV?

1. First you made a big deal about Vandarr having to go through armies if he wanted to get to Malak, now your dimissing them as goons? Fine, but that also invalidates your argument that Vandarr wanted to avoid drawing attention, they are all insignificant anyways correct?

2. No...

Vandarr is not a true unknown, thats narrow-minded thinking. Your saying Vandarr could perhaps beat Ragnos? Hes an unknown right? Theres no telling how powerful he is...?

3. Your assuming firstly, that Yoda was capable of defeating Palpatine. Not even close to fact. Moving on, WHY was Vandarr not able to get close enough??? His presence in the force? How do you know the situation wasnt the same for Revan? I think it is more likely that Revans presence in the force was much greater than Vandarrs, yet he kicked everyones ass regardless.

4. The situation in HL2(good game) is in no way applicable to KOTOR. Vandarr could of went into the star forge and fought Malak, but he choose not to.

And in closing, Ill bring up the quote I used in the first page:

Vandarr:"It will require the combined might of our order to defeat Darth Malak." Is it logical that somone who was capable of defeating Malak one on one would say this???

Well, as far as game mechanics go, Vrook is a real *****. Whether they made him (by far) the strongest Jedi Master on purpose, though, is unknown.

Also consider that (bringing in PT logic) the gap between second (Mace Windu) and third (Obi-Wan Kenobi) is reasonably large. Perhaps, just perhaps, the gap between Vrook and Kavar are similar!

Am I the only one seeing Vrook walking outta this one?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. First you made a big deal about Vandarr having to go through armies if he wanted to get to Malak, now your dimissing them as goons? Fine, but that also invalidates your argument that Vandarr wanted to avoid drawing attention, they are all insignificant anyways correct?

Firstly, least you could do is spell his name right. Second, Vandar had no chance in hell of finding the Star Forge since its location was hidden away in Revan's memories. Third, Vandar could not maintain a low profile while searching for the maps. And fourth, it's HIGHLY doubtful that he could have accomplished what Revan accomplished, because of the fact that Revan had personal knowledge of the situation and could move virtually unmolested.

Don't twist my words and be a prick about it, GV. Your argument lacks substance, and I'm pointing that out without championing Vandar. I can do that. You made the claim, and you failed ot back it up. I'm showing you why that claim is faulty.

2. No...

Vandarr is not a true unknown, thats narrow-minded thinking. Your saying Vandarr could perhaps beat Ragnos? Hes an unknown right? Theres no telling how powerful he is...?

No, it's highly unlikely that he could even make Ragnos do more than laugh. But you assigning arbitary levels of power to him is pretty ridiculous considering he hasn't been seen in combat. Instead of trying to prove that Vandar is a certain level of power, try and prove the case for Revan or Malak.

3. Your assuming firstly, that Yoda was capable of defeating Palpatine. Not even close to fact.

Around ROTS he was certainly capable, unless you slept through the movie. He had twenty years to make another attempt. Why didn't he at least try? Because for one thing, he was waiting for Anakin's children to mature. Another, he could not make his presence known.

Moving on, WHY was Vandarr not able to get close enough??? His presence in the force? How do you know the situation wasnt the same for Revan? I think it is more likely that Revans presence in the force was much greater than Vandarrs, yet he kicked everyones ass regardless.

Which is why you are being ridiculous. It's said all throughout KotOR that Revan is virtually unknown to most and his power is supressed, so it's not as easy to track. Vandar is only a three foot tall green jedi master who's likely the only one of his era. You think Vandar could fly from planet to planet and replicate Revan's accomplishments considering he's extra noticeable and the Sith are no doubt looking for him.

4. The situation in HL2(good game) is in no way applicable to KOTOR. Vandarr could of went into the star forge and fought Malak, but he choose not to.

I was talking about the original Half Life, thanks. And everything said and written in and about KotOR says explicitly that only Revan had the hidden knowledge, low profile, and descreetness to get the mission done. Go replay the game and stop talking out of your ass.

And in closing, Ill bring up the quote I used in the first page:

Vandarr:"It will require the combined might of our order to defeat Darth Malak." Is it logical that somone who was capable of defeating Malak one on one would say this???

He was talking about the new Sith forces, GV. You know? The infinite ships... hordes of dark jedi... sith troopers...? I mean, you can't just walk past an army and see the head Sith, kill him in combat and go home... No one even knew where the Leviathan or the Star Forge was.

Now, stop talking out of your ass, GV.

Firstly, least you could do is spell his name right. Second, Vandar had no chance in hell of finding the Star Forge since its location was hidden away in Revan's memories. Third, Vandar could not maintain a low profile while searching for the maps. And fourth, it's HIGHLY doubtful that he could have accomplished what Revan accomplished, because of the fact that Revan had personal knowledge of the situation and could move virtually unmolested.

Alright, but why would the Jedi council take such a great risk in sending Revan? If Revan regained his memory, they would have an even harder time around than if they just let Malak rule. You claim that they did not send Revan because he alone was the only person who could fight Malak and defeat him. Revan was memory wiped at the time, he knew nothing ABOUT the Star Forge. If Vrook or Vandaar was stronger than Malak, then the council would have sent either Vrook, Kavar, or Vandaar on the Star Forge quest with Bastila. Remember that Bastila also had knowledge on where the Star Maps were located. Revan would not be essential. They could have simply obtained a voice print and took it with them, so that they would not have to risk the chance of a new dark lord.

No, it's highly unlikely that he could even make Ragnos do more than laugh. But you assigning arbitary levels of power to him is pretty ridiculous considering he hasn't been seen in combat. Instead of trying to prove that Vandar is a certain level of power, try and prove the case for Revan or Malak.

Wesker, you are the one assigning Vandaar arbitrary powers. All the evidence points against Vandaar being stronger than Revan, yet you insist that he is.

He was talking about the new Sith forces, GV. You know? The infinite ships... hordes of dark jedi... sith troopers...? I mean, you can't just walk past an army and see the head Sith, kill him in combat and go home... No one even knew where the Leviathan or the Star Forge was.

He was talking about both buddy. Kavar was the best duelist in the order, but he was defeated by Malak. That is evidence that Malak could beat the other masters, Vandaar included.

Originally posted by Wesker
Firstly, least you could do is spell his name right. Second, Vandar had no chance in hell of finding the Star Forge since its location was hidden away in Revan's memories. Third, Vandar could not maintain a low profile while searching for the maps. And fourth, it's HIGHLY doubtful that he could have accomplished what Revan accomplished, because of the fact that Revan had personal knowledge of the situation and could move virtually unmolested.

Don't twist my words and be a prick about it, GV. Your argument lacks substance, and I'm pointing that out without championing Vandar. I can do that. You made the claim, and you failed ot back it up. I'm showing you why that claim is faulty.

No, it's highly unlikely that he could even make Ragnos do more than laugh. But you assigning arbitary levels of power to him is pretty ridiculous considering he hasn't been seen in combat. Instead of trying to prove that Vandar is a certain level of power, try and prove the case for Revan or Malak.

Around ROTS he was certainly capable, unless you slept through the movie. He had twenty years to make another attempt. Why didn't he at least try? Because for one thing, he was waiting for Anakin's children to mature. Another, he could not make his presence known.

Which is why you are being ridiculous. It's said all throughout KotOR that Revan is virtually unknown to most and his power is supressed, so it's not as easy to track. Vandar is only a three foot tall green jedi master who's likely the only one of his era. You think Vandar could fly from planet to planet and replicate Revan's accomplishments considering he's extra noticeable and the Sith are no doubt looking for him.

I was talking about the original Half Life, thanks. And everything said and written in and about KotOR says explicitly that only Revan had the hidden knowledge, low profile, and descreetness to get the mission done. Go replay the game and stop talking out of your ass.

He was talking about the new Sith forces, GV. You know? The infinite ships... hordes of dark jedi... sith troopers...? I mean, you can't just walk past an army and see the head Sith, kill him in combat and go home... No one even knew where the Leviathan or the Star Forge was.

Now, stop talking out of your ass, GV.

Firstly, calm down...I was arrogant before, I apologize, but your taking it to new levels.

1. I was never talking about the journey to find the star forge, Im talking about the final battle and what he could of done.

2. My argument doesnt lack substance, your apparently taking the apathetic stance that Vandars power is an unknown and there is no point in debating about it. Im taking the stance that it is not logical for Vandar to be more powerful than Revan, and Ive shown you numerous examples why.

3. Then Vandar is not an unknown... although he has never been in true combat, it is not reasonable to assume that he is above a certain level of power based on his actions throughout the game. And that level in my belief is below Revan.

4. Yoda at BEST fought to a draw...To assume he could of fought a second time and won is 100% blind speculation.

5. See number 1.

6. HL? HL2? Whatever...Again refer to number 1.

7. No actually he wasnt. He was talking about Malak, the quote is not uncertain.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Alright, but why would the Jedi council take such a great risk in sending Revan? If Revan regained his memory, they would have an even harder time around than if they just let Malak rule. You claim that they did not send Revan because he alone was the only person who could fight Malak and defeat him. Revan was memory wiped at the time, he knew nothing ABOUT the Star Forge. If Vrook or Vandaar was stronger than Malak, then the council would have sent either Vrook, Kavar, or Vandaar on the Star Forge quest with Bastila. Remember that Bastila also had knowledge on where the Star Maps were located. Revan would not be essential. They could have simply obtained a voice print and took it with them, so that they would not have to risk the chance of a new dark lord.

Uh, did you PLAY the game? Revan had the reoccuring memories which LEAD his party to the maps! He was the only one who could get to them! Revan was sent to find and destroy the Star Forge. Killing Malak was not part of the jedi's objective, just icing on the cake.

Wesker, you are the one assigning Vandaar arbitrary powers. All the evidence points against Vandaar being stronger than Revan, yet you insist that he is.

No, I'm not. How thick are you people? There IS no evidence, which is exactly what I'm arguing! Vandar probably IS weaker than Revan at the latter's peak. Then again, it's possible that he's the only KotOR Makashi/Juyo master and can WTFpwn him. We don't know. And there's nothing to say whether he is inferior or superior at this point. NO canonical evidence either way. Get that through your head, both of you.

He was talking about both buddy. Kavar was the best duelist in the order, but he was defeated by Malak. That is evidence that Malak could beat the other masters, Vandaar included.

Kavar was the best duellist in the order? Where's your source for this, kid? Source for anything? I've played both games ten times apiece. I'm sure if your claims were ingame and had merit, I'd know of them already. Stop talking out of your ass.

Oh, **** this thread. I remember now why I don't debate here as much anymore.

[B]Uh, did you PLAY the game? Revan had the reoccuring memories which LEAD his party to the maps! He was the only one who could get to them! Revan was sent to find and destroy the Star Forge. Killing Malak was not part of the jedi's objective, just icing on the cake.

Yes I did, but you clearly did not understand what I said buddy. Did you notice that Bastila had the dreams as well? She also has visions on where the Star Maps are located.

No, I'm not. How thick are you people? There IS no evidence, which is exactly what I'm arguing! Vandar probably IS weaker than Revan at the latter's peak. Then again, it's possible that he's the only KotOR Makashi/Juyo master and can WTFpwn him. We don't know. And there's nothing to say whether he is inferior or superior at this point. NO canonical evidence either way. Get that through your head, both of you.

Right, then you admit that Vandaar is probably weaker than Revan.

Kavar was the best duellist in the order? Where's your source for this, kid? Source for anything? I've played both games ten times apiece. I'm sure if your claims were ingame and had merit, I'd know of them already. Stop talking out of your ass.

Where did I get it from? Um an in game quote from Canderous which reitirated what was common fact in the Star Wars universe at the time. 🙄

Originally posted by Wesker
Oh, **** this thread. I remember now why I don't debate here as much anymore.

Don't blame me Wesker. I was trying to be civil during the entire time. You're the one that called me a fanboy, and then whined yourself away.

Originally posted by Wesker
Oh, **** this thread. I remember now why I don't debate here as much anymore.

*sigh* Fine, go home then.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Don't blame me Wesker. I was trying to be civil during the entire time. You're the one that called me a fanboy, and then whined yourself away.

You are a fanboy...

Vrook's technical mastery won't beat Malak's passion and fury with a lightsaber.