Originally posted by Rampant oxI'm too lazy t read the page in between, so w/e.
WTF?!?! If you can name somebody else that could accomplish everything Dooku has accoplished I will leave my argument there. If not you are simply making an assumption, and a very large assumption at that.Dooku was fooled by one man only. This man happened to be one of the greatest sith lords of all time, manipulate his way to the top of the Republic, wipe out all the jedi and hold his own against Yoda. If Dooku was to fall victim to anyone it would be Sids. Its one mistake Dooku made and not suprising seeing Sids has so much manipulative power.
Read my words properly. I said who's to say there's noone in the entire SW GALAXY that couldn't manipulate like Dooku did?
Frankly it wasn't even manipulating. He didn't lie to the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guilds. He offered them power and riches in exchange for their allegiance, which they gave. He followed through on his promises to them, until he died. The only way he screwed over the CIS is by commissioning Jango to be the Clone template. And it's not like it takes a freakin' genius to pay a bounty hunter. Dooku was only the right man at the right time, it was only his charm and charisma that let him rise as he did. If someone else came through with equally admirable attributes, then Palpatine could just have easily used them. Dooku was nothing special, he was only convenient.
^Hmmmmm. Dooku was powerful. Powerful enough to be the dark lord of the siths apprentice and right hand man. Seeing Sids chose Dooku and not anyone else would imply that Dooku was a better choice than anyone else. I highly doubt that Sids was limited in choices into who would be his apprentice. I also dont see how commisioning Jango to be the clone template was a bad thing either. He was the best bounty hunter in the business. And Dooku being nothing special is a load of s**t. He was the second most powerful duellist (tied with Mace and behind Yoda) and easily up there in terms of force ability. He also had a great deal political influence.
Originally posted by Tangible God
He didn't lie to the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guilds. He offered them power and riches in exchange for their allegiance, which they gave. He followed through on his promises to them, until he died.
If I may join in, Dooku DID lie to the Separtists, right in AOTC!
"How could the Jedi come up with an army so quickly."
So right there, Dooku lied to them! He was they guy who got Fett to be the original host for the Republic's clone army. Dooku is playing the Separtists right into his hands.
Originally posted by Sesse
Or perhaps he was just plain dumb?"Hohum... Sidious instructed me to order some army. But this is the Republics army?! That cant be it. Now, where did they get this one..."
Ya right. Dooku is feigning surprise so the nemoidians & other separtists will be jump into the clone war.
The purpose of the clone wars was to help destroy the Jedi and keep the Sith in power through the regional governors. But first, the war had to begin, which is what Dooku happily told Sidious at the end of the movie.
"Everything is going as planned." -- one of my favorite lines from AOTC!
Originally posted by Rampant oxPalpatine couldn't just pick anyone he wanted, as most of the Order realized at this time the Sith were alive. Any Knight or Master would have been aware that they were being manipulated, and most were loyal to the Republic and the Council, so it would be harder to convince them to join the Dark Side. Only stray Padawans would have been a good choice. Dooku was a Jedi Maater who had resigned from the Order due to his anger at the Republic's corruption. There were 10 000 Jedi in the Order at the time, Palpatine could have preyed upon many of them, but he chose the one he could exploit the best. Dooku was rich, and influential, but that doesn't make him uber. Again, it makes him convenient. And when did I say commissioning Jango was bad? I said it was nothing special.
^Hmmmmm. Dooku was powerful. Powerful enough to be the dark lord of the siths apprentice and right hand man. Seeing Sids chose Dooku and not anyone else would imply that Dooku was a better choice than anyone else. I highly doubt that Sids was limited in choices into who would be his apprentice. I also dont see how commisioning Jango to be the clone template was a bad thing either. He was the best bounty hunter in the business. And Dooku being nothing special is a load of s**t. He was the second most powerful duellist (tied with Mace and behind Yoda) and easily up there in terms of force ability. He also had a great deal political influence.
Originally posted by chinabingThat's true, I knew I knew there was one.
Ya right. Dooku is feigning surprise so the nemoidians & other separtists will be jump into the clone war.The purpose of the clone wars was to help destroy the Jedi and keep the Sith in power through the regional governors. But first, the war had to begin, which is what Dooku happily told Sidious at the end of the movie.
"Everything is going as planned." -- one of my favorite lines from AOTC!
Originally posted by Tangible God
Palpatine couldn't just pick anyone he wanted, as most of the Order realized at this time the Sith were alive. Any Knight or Master would have been aware that they were being manipulated, and most were loyal to the Republic and the Council, so it would be harder to convince them to join the Dark Side. Only stray Padawans would have been a good choice. Dooku was a Jedi Maater who had resigned from the Order due to his anger at the Republic's corruption. There were 10 000 Jedi in the Order at the time, Palpatine could have preyed upon many of them, but he chose the one he could exploit the best. Dooku was rich, and influential, but that doesn't make him uber. Again, it makes him convenient. And when did I say commissioning Jango was bad? I said it was nothing special.
Please define 'uber'. If uber means powerful look at it this way. Dooku had a great deal of political influence. The more of this political influence you have the more powerful you will become, just look at what Sids did.
Then on top of his political power he had vast amounts of force knowledge and saber skills. Then on top of that you have all of his wealth, and wealth can make someone very powerful. So if you add them all up I think Dooku can be classed as 'uber'.
Sidious chose Dooku to be his apprentice because he was the best choice. Sids wouldnt just be looking at the jedi. He would have eyes all over the galaxy trying to find a suitable replacement. Dooku being convenient is true to an extent, but it is more because he was the best choice.
As far as the thread topic is concerned, no the Sith shouldn't have ruled for longer than they did given that they enslaved multiple races, comitted genocide, destroyed planets, restricted freedoms, usurped democracy, disbanded the Senate, killed anyone who dissented, and were evil.
As far as Darth Tyrannus goes, he's good there's no doubt there but he's not better than Sidious, Mace, Yoda, a theoretical fully-realized Anakin, Luke as a Master, Leia if she fufilled her full potential given that she as well as Luke have Anakin's potential, Jacen circa Dark Nest, or Darth Revan.
Originally posted by StarwalkerDamn straight. Dooku was a very good character, but in terms of power, as in Force-related powers, he's not that great. The Jedi, even the masters, were waning in the PT. They had been decreasing in power for centuries. And since Dooku was not even more powerful than the top of said Jedi, that doesn't say much about him. He was below Mace and Yoda, and given a little more time, Anakin as well.
As far as the thread topic is concerned, no the Sith shouldn't have ruled for longer than they did given that they enslaved multiple races, comitted genocide, destroyed planets, restricted freedoms, usurped democracy, disbanded the Senate, killed anyone who dissented, and were evil.As far as Darth Tyrannus goes, he's good there's no doubt there but he's not better than Sidious, Mace, Yoda, a theoretical fully-realized Anakin, Luke as a Master, Leia if she fufilled her full potential given that she as well as Luke have Anakin's potential, Jacen circa Dark Nest, or Darth Revan.
Oh and Ox, by what you define as "uber" and "powerful" you could also say about Saddam, or Hitler or Stalin, or any other un-democratic ruler in history. They had the riches of their countries behind them, their armies to fight with, and many excelled in oratory skills. But few in history have been deemed "uber." Dooku was nothing special compared to many in the SW Saga. His greatest characteristic is his charisma and charm.
Originally posted by StarwalkerAs far as Darth Tyrannus goes, he's good there's no doubt there but he's not better than Sidious, Mace, Yoda, a theoretical fully-realized Anakin, Luke as a Master, Leia if she fufilled her full potential given that she as well as Luke have Anakin's potential, Jacen circa Dark Nest, or Darth Revan.
pffffft. Dooku was on par with Mace and depending on the setting would have beaten Sids in saber combat. He also managed to hold his own against Yoda who you all deem as 'uber'. Had he not taunted Anakin he would have got wtf pwned, just like his master.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Oh and Ox, by what you define as "uber" and "powerful" you could also say about Saddam, or Hitler or Stalin, or any other un-democratic ruler in history. They had the riches of their countries behind them, their armies to fight with, and many excelled in oratory skills. But few in history have been deemed "uber."
Hmmmmm. I see your point. But Hitler was seen as one of the greatest military tacticians of all time. He had the backing of his country and his government and because of this power this gave him, he managed to kill millions of people, and was on the brink of victory. This can be vaguely compared to Dooku. He had much political influenceand the backing of the CIS and because of it managed to start the great Clone Wars. This was a war where many millions of people died. So the point I am making is that physical power (saber skills and force abilities) is one thing, but political power is far greater.
Originally posted by DE Luke
Look,there's no reason to be a jerk.Everyone knows how you're obsessed with Dooku,and you're a fanboy,fanboy's tend to make statements like that all the time.Don't trust me,search around the SW Versus Forum.
Originally posted by Rampant oxVery true. Oh and I don't wanna argue this, but... Hitler was far from a great military expert. He made very foolish and unwise decisions that cost him the war. But the point still stands.
Hmmmmm. I see your point. But Hitler was seen as one of the greatest military tacticians of all time. He had the backing of his country and his government and because of this power this gave him, he managed to kill millions of people, and was on the brink of victory. This can be vaguely compared to Dooku. He had much political influenceand the backing of the CIS and because of it managed to start the great Clone Wars. This was a war where many millions of people died. So the point I am making is that physical power (saber skills and force abilities) is one thing, but political power is far greater.
The pen (or in this case, the spoken word) is mightier than the sword (or the saber.)
And I don't wanna double post, so... your response to Starwalker is more your opinion than SW canon.
Palpatine had convinced Dooku that Kenobi's death would make Anakin vulnerable to the dark side. Once turned, Dooku believed, Anakin would be the perfect commanding general of his new Sith Army, built from the remnants of the Jedi Order.
Count Dooku in his final moments.But Dooku never imagined the outcome of the duel. At the beginning he was winning somewhat easily, however, he did not realize that the fundamental and weak lightsaber forms Kenobi and Skywalker were using were a ruse; they had recently become masters of Soresu (Kenobi), and Djem So (Skywalker). Though able to block against the saber strikes of the two Jedi, he was forced onto the defensive. He Force pushed Kenobi out of the way but was pursued by Skywalker, who brutally hammered at the Sith. As Obi-Wan rejoined the fight Dooku realized that his opponents were more dangerous than he could have thought possible. Tyranus kicked Skywalker against a wall and locked Obi-Wan in a Force grip before hurling him across the room, leaving him unconscious. But then Skywalker barreled at him and Dooku found himself fighting for his life. Not only had Anakin mastered Djem So, an extremely powerful saber style, but his connection to the Force had greatly intensified since his last duel with the Dark Lord. In the end Anakin repaid the Count for his humiliating defeat on Geonosis by cutting off not one, but both, of Dooku's hands. Sidious had promised Dooku that he would intervene in the unlikely event that Anakin won the duel, but unfortunately for Dooku, he only realized Palpatine's betrayal in the moment before his death. In reality, Palpatine never intended Dooku to be the true apprentice; Dooku was merely a placeholder for Anakin and a tool for engineering the Clone Wars. At Palpatine's insistence, Anakin decapitated the helpless Sith Lord. Absolutely terrified, Dooku did not even ask for his master's help. Skywalker would later become Darth Vader, Palpatine's third and greatest apprentice.
-Wikipeda.
This pretty much proevs that Dooku wasn't "playing" with Anakin he whole time? It says that Dooku had to "quickly go on the defensive" when fighting the duo.
Originally posted by Blaxican Style
[I]-Wikipeda.
This pretty much proevs that Dooku wasn't "playing" with Anakin he whole time? It says that Dooku had to "quickly go on the defensive" when fighting the duo.
Wikipedia isnt completely accurate. The movie is higher canon and in the movie we do see Dooku being pushed back. But this isnt because the duo are more skilled it is because it is far harder to push two opponents back than for two people to push their opponent back. We also see Dooku dispose of Kenobi with minimal effort. While he was fighting Anakin he doesnt seem that concerned. He is confident enough to provoke Anakin. Not until just before his arms get chopped off do we see any fear or doubt on the Count. And he did think that Sids would step in if need be so there was no need for him to go all out - or so he thought.