Hercules vs. Juggernaut (Prime)

"I have more leverage than you do. You have nothing but your opinion on who is stronger."

Its just simple. We use name puns to determine evidence or not? because if we do, Hulk wins all the times against Juggernaut (example) because his name pun makes it so. Even if the stories -showed- or -stated- otherwise.

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"if I said Thing was stronger than Namor you would laugh at me. But I can show you a scan of Thing overpowering Namor in a contest of pure strength.(In water) Does that mean Thing is stronger than Namor?

It's all about leverage homie."

No. Because practically all showings have Ben getting beaten or down.

In this case theres more evidence that she isent stronger than him, than the other way around. Besides that one, she still couldnt move the Earth and by story statements he held it. Its DC canon.

He either beat guys she didnt or looks even with her. Like the Sinestro clone.

If you even compare with Marvel Herc, she definatly has more lows.

Couldnt take the weight of the Heaven ladder, failed to stop the Specters fall, failing to suceed with the Earth feat (same goes to Superman and MM in those). Kyle did both. Hes the one deserving the credit.

Her best feat with sucess its the moon one. Herc has better and it shows.

Now its clear why i dont belive shes stronger? Has nothing to do with "she just cant be". Its more that the writers post crisis -never- did it.

At most and its plausiable for me, DC Herc and WW are in the same level of the top tier (strenght only).

Wich is below the High tier where Supes, Herc (marvel) and the like are (again strenght only).

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Like I said the FF, Zombies, and others beat Galactus on a monthly basis.

Galactus has become a laughing stock.

I know. It's said. Sentinel Squad One is the worst example. I think Bendis and Millar wanna kill him off, then forget about Abraxas.

Originally posted by olympian
"I have more leverage than you do. You have nothing but your opinion on who is stronger."

Its just simple. We use name puns to determine evidence or not? because if we do, Hulk wins all the times against Juggernaut (example) because his name pun makes it so. Even if the stories -showed- or -stated- otherwise.

- - -

"if I said Thing was stronger than Namor you would laugh at me. But I can show you a scan of Thing overpowering Namor in a contest of pure strength.(In water) Does that mean Thing is stronger than Namor?

It's all about leverage homie."

No. Because practically all showings have Ben getting beaten or down.

In this case theres more evidence that she isent stronger than him, than the other way around. Besides that one, she still couldnt move the Earth and by story statements he held it. Its DC canon.

He either beat guys she didnt or looks even with her. Like the Sinestro clone.

If you even compare with Marvel Herc, she definatly has more lows.

Couldnt take the weight of the Heaven ladder, failed to stop the Specters fall, failing to suceed with the Earth feat (same goes to Superman and MM in those). Kyle did both. Hes the one deserving the credit.

Her best feat with sucess its the moon one. Herc has better and it shows.

Now its clear why i dont belive shes stronger? Has nothing to do with "she just cant be". Its more that the writers post crisis -never- did it.

At most and its plausiable for me, DC Herc and WW are in the same level of the top tier (strenght only).

Wich is below the High tier where Supes, Herc (marvel) and the like are (again strenght only).

The only contest of pure strength between Thing and Namor Thing won. So maybe we can say Thing is stronger.

Just because Namor lifted all of that stuff does not mean Thing could not do it cause hell he never tried it.

"I think your confusing fighting ability with strength. It's not the same."

Im talking strenght. Hes stronger. Skill is another debate.

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"The only contest of pure strength between Thing and Namor Thing won. So maybe we can say Thing is stronger."

That wasent the only contest of strenght they had. Check the Namor thread. Then count how many he has over Namor.

Then count both records against other high tiers.

Then count both lifting/strenght feats.

Then youll see why saying Thing is stronger is wrong. Especially based on -one- fight only.

Wich is the case here with the WW debate. I have example(s). You have -a- name pun.

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"Just because Namor lifted all of that stuff does not mean Thing could not do it cause hell he never tried it."

It isent just because he never tried. Its because he has lost the majority or has looked worse the majority of times he faced Namor and his track record against other high tiers isent on his level.

One is top tier. The other simply isent.

Here comes my comment on this match, be prepared.

First some ability analysis:
-Strength: Immortal Hercules and beyong godhood-Hercules probably have some advantage over the classic Juggernaut, but we are talking about the best version of Juggy as it is mentioned that he is in his prime. This makes the fight a bit unfair since the prime version of J is Trion Juggernaut.

Featwise Trion Juggernaut goes above Hercules, not too many characters go through fabrics of time and dimension with raw power. No version of Hercules would do that.

Conclusion: Beyond godhood-Hercules wins the classic Juggernaut in pure strength, but loses to Trion Juggernaut. Thus, Juggernaut wins.

-Stamina: This two titans can both exert themselves practically forever. And the Juggernaut can apparently do it forever since he does not tire at all. Definitely not when considering Trion Juggernaut.

Conclusion: Even a tie or then an advantage to Juggs. Either way, this does not play a major part in this fight because they wouldn't get tired during it, they have more stamina than that.

-Durability: Herc is one tough nut to beat in this one. He has taken hits from Mindless Hulk, one of the most powerful earthlings, without getting knocked out. The truth, however, is that Herc is utterly unable to hurt or harm the classic Juggernaut, let alone Trion. Juggernaut takes this easily.

-Speed: Not enough feats from Trion, so this can be given to Herc because he is faster than other Juggernaut-incarnations. Winner of in this aspect is arguably Hercules.

-Other talents: Hercules is a formidable hand-to-hand combatant. He has so many years of training and experience that it is not even worth counting while Juggy only has basic knowledge of hand-to-hand fighting.

On the other hand, Juggernaut wields huge amount of mystical powers, most notable of which arguably is his personal forcefield. This gives him virtually absolute protection against physical attacks.

So, from the aspects I evaluated Hercules only won in speed and it is arguable as we don't know much about Trion. Herc also is a better fighter. Big J got strength, durability, stamina and magical powers. Doesn't look too good for Hercules.

The only possibility Hercules has is battlefield removal. But how is he going to do that if the Juggernaut really fights back? If H throws and island to space Juggernaut just jumps off the island of smashes through it. If Herc tries to throw him he just uses his forcefield. Give an option and Juggernaut has a countermeasure for it. Herc just doesn't have what it takes to overcome Trion. Or even the classic Juggernaut.

But, Trion has time. He does not wear out at all. He could just destroy the damn planet and live Hercules into space.

Originally posted by olympian
"I think your confusing fighting ability with strength. It's not the same."

Im talking strenght. Hes stronger. Skill is another debate.

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"The only contest of pure strength between Thing and Namor Thing won. So maybe we can say Thing is stronger."

That wasent the only contest of strenght they had. Check the Namor thread. Then count how many he has over Namor.

Then count both records against other high tiers.

Then count both lifting/strenght feats.

Then youll see why saying Thing is stronger is wrong. Especially based on -one- fight only.

Wich is the case here with the WW debate. I have example(s). You have -a- name pun.

- - -

"Just because Namor lifted all of that stuff does not mean Thing could not do it cause hell he never tried it."

It isent just because he never tried. Its because he has lost the majority or has looked worse the majority of times he faced Namor and his track record against other high tiers isent on his level.

One is top tier. The other simply isent.

In a test of strength Thing has bested Namor. Give me a issue # where Namor bested Thing in a test of strength.(Not fighting).

Wether it's arm wrestling, lifting weights, pulling etc.

What kind of strenght test did Thing bested Namor then? Lifting/pushing feat or direct combat? You can only measure strenght in those ways.

Can you get the scans of it so ill know what you mean exactly?

Originally posted by olympian
What kind of strenght test did Thing bested Namor then? Lifting/pushing feat or direct combat? You can only measure strenght in those ways.

Can you get the scans of it so ill know what you mean exactly?

This is what I mean in a test of pure strength.(No fighting).

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/doggydogg2/ThingandNamorFF9.jpg
(Namor was in the water too when Thing pulled him out)

"Direct combat is not a example of strength. It's a example of skill basically"

Unless its a stricly h2h match, then it always has strenght involved. Otherwise Hulk matches with others wouldnt show ever how strong he is. And they do.

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"This is what I mean in a test of pure strength.(No fighting).

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j...andNamorFF9.jpg
(Namor was in the water too when Thing pulled him out)"

Post the whole thing Snoop. Will you? There was more than just that.

At best from that instance, he overpowered Namor. Then again in Namor`s first apperance in F4, three of them tried to subdue the Mariner (Thing included) and he tossed them away.

that scan is so old anyway as to practically be irrelevent . ..

i would want juggy to win. but i admit hercules would take this one

How?

Originally posted by leonidas
that scan is so old anyway as to practically be irrelevent . ..

Stan Lee! So imo it's as credible as anything.

hmm, i don't know. i get what you're saying, but i think it's usually more viable to use current material. at best, we can say stan saw ben as being stronger 40 years ago. that may or may not have a true bearing on how writers of today see things. many characters have changed dramatically in that time. just take sue for example . . .

and i liked it better when you and oly were fighting. 😛