Originally posted by batdude123
What about Connor Hawke as well? Hell, what about even Wonder Woman? I just think there are a bunch of uber martial artists in DC that get over-looked sometimes.
WonderWoman is arguably the best fighter on DC Earth, but the thing is that even though she has had crazy training (and more importantly uses that training) her main attribute does not stem from that. Her fighting skill augments her other powers, but she is more than that.
A crude analogy would be to look at the F-22 Raptor.
It is the most maneuvrable production fighter jet (in the West), and thus would be the best jet to use in military aerial acrobatics. Hence the USAF Thunderbirds should trade in their F-16s (which they use for their aerial acrobatics) for the Raptor (which, with its 2D thrust vectoring nozzles, should be better at such stunts than the Viper).
However the Raptor will never be used for such antics ....for one it is too expensive to 'waste' on airshow theatrics, and secondly while it may be very maneuvrable its main aim is to kill anything flying in the skies not to make 12 yr old boys make oogly eyes and drop their ice cream cones on the grass.
Similar with WW......she is a great fighter, and once you add her skill to her speed, her strength, and her resistance to injury, you end up with a really formidable fighter.
However I would be hard pressed to rank WW among 'martial artists' ....even though she is indeed one (a martial art means a fighting art, not necessarily one stemming from the Orient, and thus her Amazonian fighting skills are indeed martial arts)and one of the best. However ranking her as a martial artist would be hard for me.
Same thing with Superman and his Kryptonian martial arts (the Torquasm-Rao -whatever-he-calls-them that include a mental discipline and a physical discipline). If you add these to Superman's strength and speed (especially speed) you have someone who can whoop all the Batmans and Robins and Shivas and Batgirls in one fell swoop! But I wouldn't call him a 'martial artist' in DC, even though he knows what is arguably a martial art. Superman could defeat all the top human martial artists in DC and Marvel under a second with Torquasm-Rao, but I wouldn't call him a martial artist.
Moving on to Drakon.
That guy was written as being able to defeat Connor Hawke, who is supposed to be one of the top martial artists in DC (so good that he is the Silver monkey, a position only below that of the Paper Monkey aka Lady Shiva).
Yet Drakon smeared the pavement with Hawke like he was some snotty nosed punk!
What to say?
nothing .....maybe that is one case where DC editors should have put in overtime. I really have nothing more to say about drakon ....and there is a reason he 'disappeared' and hasn't been heard from in DC.
Connor Hawke.
As said he is/was the Silver Monkey.
He is good (even though the Drakon anomaly exists).
He is not the best.
He is not better than Cassie.
By the way there are others .....for example Cassie's older (imperfect) brother Mad Dog. One of David Cain's failed experiments (before he hit pay dirt with Cassie). He is good, and was written as giving Batgirl a hard time.
Anyways, with that said ....under 'normal' conditions in DC Earth (without including people like WW, BM1M, and KK) and ignoring anomalies like Constantine Drakon and Mad Dog, the top tier is Batgirl, Shiva and Dragon.
Although currently I have to give Batgirl a half-point advantage ....after all her last showing against Shiva was a clear victory. Snapper her neck like kindling and left her hanging on a meat hook.
They'll be no arguments about that victory.
Originally posted by spetznazdude/.....do people actually read all that?
WonderWoman is arguably the best fighter on DC Earth, but the thing is that even though she has had crazy training (and more importantly uses that training) her main attribute does not stem from that. Her fighting skill augments her other powers, but she is more than that.
A crude analogy would be to look at the F-22 Raptor.
It is the most maneuvrable production fighter jet (in the West), and thus would be the best jet to use in military aerial acrobatics. Hence the USAF Thunderbirds should trade in their F-16s (which they use for their aerial acrobatics) for the Raptor (which, with its 2D thrust vectoring nozzles, should be better at such stunts than the Viper).
However the Raptor will never be used for such antics ....for one it is too expensive to 'waste' on airshow theatrics, and secondly while it may be very maneuvrable its main aim is to kill anything flying in the skies.Similar with WW......she is a great fighter, and once you add her skill to her speed, her strength, and her resistance to injury, you end up with a really formidable fighter.
However I would be hard pressed to rank WW among 'martial artists' ....even though she is indeed one (a martial art means a fighting art, not necessarily one stemming from the Orient, and thus her Amazonian fighting skills are indeed martial arts)and one of the best.Moving on to Drakon.
That guy was written as being able to defeat Connor Hawke, who is supposed to be one of the top martial artists in DC (so good that he is the Silver monkey, a position only below that of the Paper Monkey aka Lady Shiva).
Yet Drakon smeared the pavement with Hawke like he was some snotty nosed punk!
What to say?
nothing .....maybe that is one case where DC editors should have put in overtime. I really have nothing more to say about drakon ....and there is a reason he 'disappeared' and hasn't been heard from in DC.Connor Hawke.
As said he is/was the Silver Monkey.
He is good (even though the Drakon anomaly exists).
He is not the best.
He is not better than Cassie.By the way there are others .....for example Cassie's older (imperfect) brother Mad Dog. One of David Cain's failed experiments (before he hit pay dirt with Cassie). He is good, and was written as giving Batgirl a hard time.
Anyways, with that said ....under 'normal' conditions in DC Earth (without including people like WW, BM1M, and KK) and ignoring anomalies like Constantine Drakon and Mad Dog, the top tier is Batgirl, Shiva and Dragon.
Although currently I have to give Batgirl a half-point advantage ....after all her last showing against Shiva was a clear victory. Snapper her neck like kindling and left her hanging on a meat hook.
They'll be no arguments about that victory.
Originally posted by batdude123
What about Connor Hawke as well? Hell, what about even Wonder Woman? I just think there are a bunch of uber martial artists in DC that get over-looked sometimes.
Originally posted by spetznaz
WonderWoman is arguably the best fighter on DC Earth, but the thing is that even though she has had crazy training (and more importantly uses that training) her main attribute does not stem from that. Her fighting skill augments her other powers, but she is more than that.
A crude analogy would be to look at the F-22 Raptor.
It is the most maneuvrable production fighter jet (in the West), and thus would be the best jet to use in military aerial acrobatics. Hence the USAF Thunderbirds should trade in their F-16s (which they use for their aerial acrobatics) for the Raptor (which, with its 2D thrust vectoring nozzles, should be better at such stunts than the Viper).
However the Raptor will never be used for such antics ....for one it is too expensive to 'waste' on airshow theatrics, and secondly while it may be very maneuvrable its main aim is to kill anything flying in the skies not to make 12 yr old boys make oogly eyes and drop their ice cream cones on the grass.Similar with WW......she is a great fighter, and once you add her skill to her speed, her strength, and her resistance to injury, you end up with a really formidable fighter.
However I would be hard pressed to rank WW among 'martial artists' ....even though she is indeed one (a martial art means a fighting art, not necessarily one stemming from the Orient, and thus her Amazonian fighting skills are indeed martial arts)and one of the best.Moving on to Drakon.
That guy was written as being able to defeat Connor Hawke, who is supposed to be one of the top martial artists in DC (so good that he is the Silver monkey, a position only below that of the Paper Monkey aka Lady Shiva).
Yet Drakon smeared the pavement with Hawke like he was some snotty nosed punk!
What to say?
nothing .....maybe that is one case where DC editors should have put in overtime. I really have nothing more to say about drakon ....and there is a reason he 'disappeared' and hasn't been heard from in DC.Connor Hawke.
As said he is/was the Silver Monkey.
He is good (even though the Drakon anomaly exists).
He is not the best.
He is not better than Cassie.By the way there are others .....for example Cassie's older (imperfect) brother Mad Dog. One of David Cain's failed experiments (before he hit pay dirt with Cassie). He is good, and was written as giving Batgirl a hard time.
Anyways, with that said ....under 'normal' conditions in DC Earth (without including people like WW, BM1M, and KK) and ignoring anomalies like Constantine Drakon and Mad Dog, the top tier is Batgirl, Shiva and Dragon.
Although currently I have to give Batgirl a half-point advantage ....after all her last showing against Shiva was a clear victory. Snapper her neck like kindling and left her hanging on a meat hook.
They'll be no arguments about that victory.
What about O-Sensei? You're ignoring a bunch of characters because they are "too powerful." So, big deal. They are better martial artists than Batgirl. This is who has the best martial artists skill. You can't just ignore somebody's hard-trained skill because they could mop the floor with DC's other martial artists without actually having to use their skills. The point about the F-22 Raptor and the F-16 Falcon, just because the F-22 Raptor is used for other purposses, doesn't change the fact that it is more acrobatic in the air. I agree that Batgirl Cass is perhaps the most skillfully endowed in martial arts in the human category, but you can't just omit the other ones. My point, just because the other ones are more powerful than Dragon, Shiva, and Cain, doesn't make them any less of a martial artist and they deserve their respect at the top of the list. 😉
Originally posted by batdude123
What about O-Sensei? You're ignoring a bunch of characters because they are "too powerful." So, big deal. They are better martial artists than Batgirl. This is who has the best martial artists skill. You can't just ignore somebody's hard-trained skill because they could mop the floor with DC's other martial artists without actually having to use their skills. The point about the F-22 Raptor and the F-16 Falcon, just because the F-22 Raptor is used for other purposses, doesn't change the fact that it is more acrobatic in the air. I agree that Batgirl Cass is perhaps the most skillfully endowed in martial arts in the human category, but you can't just omit the other ones. My point, just because the other ones are more powerful than Dragon, Shiva, and Cain, doesn't make them any less of a martial artist and they deserve their respect at the top of the list. 😉
You do have a good point BD123.
And true ....it is not really prudent to 'ignore' characters.
The only reason I did so is because some (like WW, and Superman when he decides -LOL- to go Torqua-whatever-its-called) simply have their martial skills as secondary aspects of a far more powerful skill/ability set.
Take their fighting abilities away and there would be no difference (of any significance).
On the other hand take away the martial art abilities of Lady Shiva or Richard Dragon for example, and all you have is a lithe attractive female and some white dude.
The ones that give me most pause are people like Drakon.
I still say a DC editor wasn't paying much attention. The problem with that is that comics are written/drawn fiction, and thus if an editor goes to sleep you can have Huntress beating Batman in H2H or something similarly wacky. Or say Arsenal pimp slapping Superman (none of the above happened, but for it to happen all that would be necessary is someone to draw it as such and for the editing department that takes care of continuity to be asleep).
Drakon is great, but having him beat Connor like it was nothing, and yer Connor has faced off against Dragon and Shiva (and not lost respect), basically makes Drakon the very best in 'normal' DC.
Yet Shiva/Cassie/Dragon are also written as the top tier.
Again, there is a reason why Drakon simply disappeared from DC continuity. Too many lose ends.
Originally posted by spetznaz
You do have a good point BD123.
And true ....it is not really prudent to 'ignore' characters.The only reason I did so is because some (like WW, and Superman when he decides -LOL- to go Torqua-whatever-its-called) simply have their martial skills as secondary aspects of a far more powerful skill/ability set.
Take their fighting abilities away and there would be no difference (of any significance).On the other hand take away the martial art abilities of Lady Shiva or Richard Dragon for example, and all you have is a lithe attractive female and some white dude.
The ones that give me most pause are people like Drakon.
I still say a DC editor wasn't paying much attention. The problem with that is that comics are written/drawn fiction, and thus if an editor goes to sleep you can have Huntress beating Batman in H2H or something similarly wacky. Or say Arsenal pimp slapping Superman (none of the above happened, but for it to happen all that would be necessary is someone to draw it as such and for the editing department that takes care of continuity to be asleep).Drakon is great, but having him beat Connor like it was nothing, and yer Connor has faced off against Dragon and Shiva (and not lost respect), basically makes Drakon the very best in 'normal' DC.
Yet Shiva/Cassie/Dragon are also written as the top tier.
Again, there is a reason why Drakon simply disappeared from DC continuity. Too many lose ends.
Thank you! 😄 I agree that martial art skills are definitely more important to Shiva/Cass/Dragon, but that doesn't mean that the powerful ones don't have it (Karate Kid, Batman 1 Million, Wonder Woman, etc...) But what about O-Sensei? He was Richard Dragon and some other dudes sensei and he tought them everything they know.