Originally posted by srankmissingninShe has been since she trained without it. 🙄 And reading your opponent is part of martial combat. Forgetting how to understand body language would ruin any Martial Artist.
Technically speaking in terms of pure MA skill Batgirl isn't anywhere near the top ten. It's her ability to read her opponents body languages that makes her so formidable with out it she better then average at best.And Drakon was badass!
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Anyone can read an opponent to some excent but for Cass it is so percise that it borders telepathy. When she lost the ability read body language like an open book Batman wouldnt even allow her to partrol, saying it would take years before she was up to par... and he lets Robin patrol.
You have mentioned several times that Batgirl is not a topnotch fighter without her reading ability, and even in one post said that she was at best average.
And you base your assertions on what happened when Batgirl learnt how to talk, and in the process forgot how to read what a person was supposed to do with great efficacy.
You are right that she is not as good a fighter as she was without her reading ability, but you are WAAAY wrong in terms of you saying she was an 'average at best' fighter.
Fact of the matter is that Batgirl was still one of the best fighters ......yet she was not allowed to patrol (while Robin, as you correctly pointed out, was given free reign).
Why?
Well, let me dissect this. Have a look at the following conversation.
Batman says: You're still not ready. Your OFFENSE IS FINE, BUT YOUR DEFENSE ......! All your life, you've had that special ability to predict your opponent's moves. Now that's gone ....YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN DEFENSE LIKE THE REST OF US."
Thus there is the first problem with your statements.
You say that without her 'reading' ability she is an 'average' fighter at best.
The truth of the matter is that she is still an offensive beast in every way, she just lacks the same level of defense that was granted by her reading ability.
Now, the next question is obviously why Robin is allowed to patrol, while Batgirl during this stage stayed at home.
Why was that?
Simple, and Oracle addresses it when he is talking to Batgirl.
Batgirl had started to dress up in a different costume to go and tackle criminals, and she (Batgirl) managed to ALWAYS thoroughly defeat them.
As she says, 'who needs defense' when she can take them all out using her offense!
While she is with Oracle the following conversation occurs:
Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."
The above conversation (and another with Robin, which also has him telling her that her daredevil stunts, like walking between bullets, is just insane) basically shows why she is not allowed to patrol.
Her offensive skills are still perfect (while fighting with Shiva, before Shiva fixes her reading skills, Batgirl is seen to think that all she needs is ONE HIT), what is lacking is her reading ability.
This is a problem when she has a penchant for taking skills that Robin DOESN'T, and thus that is why one is allowed to patrol and the other is not.
Again:
- the fight with Shiva where she asks for just one hit
- the fight with the various thugs in Gotham where she needs that with her offense she doesn't need defence
- the talk with Oracle where Oracle explains to her why she (Batgirl) is not ready, even though she is far better than Oracle as Batgirl ever was in the past (basically because of the risks taken by Batgirl, which would be deadly without her reading skills)
And then there is this conversation between Shiva and Batgirl:
Shiva: " It's getting late, and I've wasted enough time on you already I'd heard you were good. Very good. Imagine my surprise when I found that not only IS YOUR DEFENSE PITIFUL ....but that you won't even fight like we both know you can. I saw the moves you didn't make. Lethal moves. You're obviously a TRAINED ASSASSIN. Why do you keep play-fighting?"
Batgirl: "I don't kill."
Batgirl: I need a favor
Shiva: A favor? After that little trick you pulled last time? You'll be lucky to leave this roof alive.
Batgirl: You ...see....moves. Before ....they ....happen. I ....used ....to. I ...want ...to ....again.
Shiva: Yes. Yes, I see it now. The gap in your style. I can give you back what you've lost. Rather quickly infact. But there's a price.
Again, it is not that Batgirl is a bad fighter (or as you say, 'at best average'😉 it is that she is a great fighter with amazing offence, but the problem is that without her reading abilities AND her penchant for taking dangerous stunts, she is not ready for patrol.
Oracle when she was Batgirl never used to take the risks Cassie takes.
Robin NEVER dodges a fullisade of bullets from point-blank range.
Not even Batman and Nightwing take the type of insane risks that Batgirl does.
Conclusion:
Under no circumstances was Batgirl without her reading ability an 'average' fighter.
What she was lacking was her combative defensive suite, which (in her case) was a fatal flaw given the risk choices she takes.
To reiterate .....here is the Oracle conversation again:
Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."
And about the Robin-Batgirl comparison .....let's just say that later on (several issues) while Robin and Batgirl are taking down a room full of criminals, Batgirl takes out some perp firing a gun at her by weaving in-between the bullets.
What does Robin say? He is shocked, then he simply states in awe: "Bullet dodging. Okay!
If Robin used to take the same risks Batgirl took he also wouldn't be allowed to patrol .....unless he got the same defensive skills like Cassie.
And Cassie is not an 'average' fighter. It would have taken her 10 years to be as good as Batman was defensive-wise (and probably much longer to be like she was before she had lost her reading ability), but her offensive skills were still alright.
Hey spetznaz, remember when we had the conversation about how DC has some uber martial artists that don't get mentioned because they are overshadowed by people like Shiva, Dragon, and Cain? What about O-Sensei? He's one of the best DC has to offer. He trained Dragon and this other guy all that they knew in terms of martial arts ability. What's your take on him? I say he's not mentioned in that list of the best simply because people don't know who he is.
Originally posted by spetznaz
You have mentioned several times that Batgirl is not a topnotch fighter without her reading ability, and even in one post said that she was at best average.
And you base your assertions on what happened when Batgirl learnt how to talk, and in the process forgot how to read what a person was supposed to do with great efficacy.You are right that she is not as good a fighter as she was without her reading ability, but you are WAAAY wrong in terms of you saying she was an 'average at best' fighter.
Fact of the matter is that Batgirl was still one of the best fighters ......yet she was not allowed to patrol (while Robin, as you correctly pointed out, was given free reign).
Why?Well, let me dissect this. Have a look at the following conversation.
[b]Batman says: You're still not ready. Your OFFENSE IS FINE, BUT YOUR DEFENSE ......! All your life, you've had that special ability to predict your opponent's moves. Now that's gone ....YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN DEFENSE LIKE THE REST OF US."
Thus there is the first problem with your statements.
You say that without her 'reading' ability she is an 'average' fighter at best.
The truth of the matter is that she is still an offensive beast in every way, she just lacks the same level of defense that was granted by her reading ability.Now, the next question is obviously why Robin is allowed to patrol, while Batgirl during this stage stayed at home.
Why was that?Simple, and Oracle addresses it when he is talking to Batgirl.
Batgirl had started to dress up in a different costume to go and tackle criminals, and she (Batgirl) managed to ALWAYS thoroughly defeat them.
As she says, 'who needs defense' when she can take them all out using her offense!
While she is with Oracle the following conversation occurs:Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."
The above conversation (and another with Robin, which also has him telling her that her daredevil stunts, like walking between bullets, is just insane) basically shows why she is not allowed to patrol.
Her offensive skills are still perfect (while fighting with Shiva, before Shiva fixes her reading skills, Batgirl is seen to think that all she needs is ONE HIT), what is lacking is her reading ability.
This is a problem when she has a penchant for taking skills that Robin DOESN'T, and thus that is why one is allowed to patrol and the other is not.Again:
- the fight with Shiva where she asks for just one hit
- the fight with the various thugs in Gotham where she needs that with her offense she doesn't need defence
- the talk with Oracle where Oracle explains to her why she (Batgirl) is not ready, even though she is far better than Oracle as Batgirl ever was in the past (basically because of the risks taken by Batgirl, which would be deadly without her reading skills)And then there is this conversation between Shiva and Batgirl:
Shiva: " It's getting late, and I've wasted enough time on you already I'd heard you were good. Very good. Imagine my surprise when I found that not only IS YOUR DEFENSE PITIFUL ....but that you won't even fight like we both know you can. I saw the moves you didn't make. Lethal moves. You're obviously a TRAINED ASSASSIN. Why do you keep play-fighting?"
Batgirl: "I don't kill."Batgirl: I need a favor
Shiva: A favor? After that little trick you pulled last time? You'll be lucky to leave this roof alive.
Batgirl: You ...see....moves. Before ....they ....happen. I ....used ....to. I ...want ...to ....again.
Shiva: Yes. Yes, I see it now. The gap in your style. I can give you back what you've lost. Rather quickly infact. But there's a price.Again, it is not that Batgirl is a bad fighter (or as you say, 'at best average'😉 it is that she is a great fighter with amazing offence, but the problem is that without her reading abilities AND her penchant for taking dangerous stunts, she is not ready for patrol.
Oracle when she was Batgirl never used to take the risks Cassie takes.
Robin NEVER dodges a fullisade of bullets from point-blank range.
Not even Batman and Nightwing take the type of insane risks that Batgirl does.Conclusion:
Under no circumstances was Batgirl without her reading ability an 'average' fighter.
What she was lacking was her combative defensive suite, which (in her case) was a fatal flaw given the risk choices she takes.
To reiterate .....here is the Oracle conversation again:Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."And about the Robin-Batgirl comparison .....let's just say that later on (several issues) while Robin and Batgirl are taking down a room full of criminals, Batgirl takes out some perp firing a gun at her by weaving in-between the bullets.
What does Robin say? He is shocked, then he simply states in awe: "Bullet dodging. Okay!If Robin used to take the same risks Batgirl took he also wouldn't be allowed to patrol .....unless he got the same defensive skills like Cassie.
And Cassie is not an 'average' fighter. It would have taken her 10 years to be as good as Batman was defensive-wise (and probably much longer to be like she was before she had lost her reading ability), but her offensive skills were still alright. [/B]
yep 💃
Originally posted by batdude123
Hey spetznaz, remember when we had the conversation about how DC has some uber martial artists that don't get mentioned because they are overshadowed by people like Shiva, Dragon, and Cain? What about O-Sensei? He's one of the best DC has to offer. He trained Dragon and this other guy all that they knew in terms of martial arts ability. What's your take on him? I say he's not mentioned in that list of the best simply because people don't know who he is.
It is as you said ....not popular/known equals not being mentioned.
I guess normally DC maintains that the 'normal' (i.e non-Karate Kid/Batmanonemillion) top is the Trimurti comprised of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva , but obviously being fiction nothing is set in stone and it is easy for a different writer to throw things into chaos mode (for example the whole Constantine Drakon debacle, where he was written in such a manner as to cast doubt on the Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva trinity).
Anyways, Shiva claims to always keep a list of the 25 best martial artists, and Prometheus had the moves of 25 (or was it 30) of the best martial artists stored in his helmet's drive.
Thus there must be a bunch, and they must be good .....and it allows for different writers to just introduce some character from the blue and throw everything out of synch .....but generally speaking it is the trimurti of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva that has prominence, and of the three currently Batgirl is at the helm after her final and total defeat of Shiva.
Nightwing and Robin win this.Robin is a 4 second destraction at best but with someone like Nightwing 4 seconds is all you need.I still say Nightwing by himself could beat her on his own more then 50% of the time.He may not be as good as fighter as she is but he's stronger, faster, and more agile.Not to mention that he has spent the majority of his crime fighting career fighting against people with super powers and with teamates with super powers.
Originally posted by spetznaz
It is as you said ....not popular/known equals not being mentioned.I guess normally DC maintains that the 'normal' (i.e non-Karate Kid/Batmanonemillion) top is the Trimurti comprised of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva , but obviously being fiction nothing is set in stone and it is easy for a different writer to throw things into chaos mode (for example the whole Constantine Drakon debacle, where he was written in such a manner as to cast doubt on the Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva trinity).
Anyways, Shiva claims to always keep a list of the 25 best martial artists, and Prometheus had the moves of 25 (or was it 30) of the best martial artists stored in his helmet's drive.
Thus there must be a bunch, and they must be good .....and it allows for different writers to just introduce some character from the blue and throw everything out of synch .....but generally speaking it is the trimurti of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva that has prominence, and of the three currently Batgirl is at the helm after her final and total defeat of Shiva.
You're probably right. ✅
Promethius' disk in that old JLA issue, when he ran into Batman, said it had the top ten, and he Batman just narrowed his eyes and got ready. Then he said "And one of them .. . is you." Then Bats got clobbered. Since then Promethius has become somewhat of a pud, but he's about to be put back in the limelight.
Originally posted by Juntai
Promethius' disk in that old JLA issue, when he ran into Batman, said it had the top ten, and he Batman just narrowed his eyes and got ready. Then he said "And one of them .. . is you." Then Bats got clobbered. Since then Promethius has become somewhat of a pud, but he's about to be put back in the limelight.
Grazie!
I knew his helmet's drive had several of the top martial artists on record, but I had forgotten how many of them there were.
Thanks for the clarification.
He may have added more since, but I haven't really seen him utilize it. I still think that Batman could have stood a better change in that fight through physical prowess of having actually performed all the moves on that disc hundreds of times.... then again, it was pretty much all off panel, so we didn't really get to see how well he stood up. He was just laid out next time we seen him. Though it's a wonder in a situation like that, that they didn't just teleport him out, or turn on the defense protocols, which knows the bio-signature of the JLA teams. But hey- most of that is irrelivent to the point here. I'm rambling 😄