29 proof's for macro evolution doesn't say much so far
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
It talks about theories yet doesn't bother to distinguish between,their theroies and facts Example:
Many organisms have been observed to acquire various new functions which they did not have previously (Endler 1986). Bacteria have acquired resistance to viruses (Luria and Delbruck 1943) and to antibiotics (Lederberg and Lederberg 1952). Bacteria have also evolved the ability to synthesize new amino acids and DNA bases (Futuyma 1998, p. 274). Unicellular organisms have evolved the ability to use nylon and pentachlorophenol (which are both unnatural manmade chemicals) as their sole carbon sources (Okada et al. 1983; Orser and Lange 1994). The acquisition of this latter ability entailed the evolution of an entirely novel multienzyme metabolic pathway (Lee et al. 1998). Bacteria have evolved to grow at previously unviable temperatures (Bennett et al. 1992). In E. coli, we have seen the evolution (by artificial selection) of an entirely novel metabolic system including the ability to metabolize a new carbon source, the regulation of this ability by new regulatory genes, and the evolution of the ability to transport this new carbon source across the cell membrane (Hall 1982).
"Such evolutionary acquisition of new function is also common in metazoans. We have observed insects become resistant to insecticides (Ffrench-Constant et al. 2000), animals and plants acquire disease resistance (Carpenter and O'Brien 1995; Richter and Ronald 2000), crustaceans evolve new defenses to predators (Hairston 1990), amphibians evolve tolerance to habitat acidification (Andren et al. 1989), and mammals acquire immunity to poisons (Bishop 1981). Recent beneficial mutations are also known in humans, such as the famous apolipoprotein AI Milano mutation that confers lowered risk to cardiovascular disease in its carriers."
They don't mention that these traits already exsit and that the ratio of bacteria that a resistent simply change due to natural selection.
Also it doesn't do a good job of explaining how mutations create traits.
Then post them please.
mmm..perhaps you missed this
ive given several examples
they're only a few pages from the end in the evolution...not that hard to find if you're not to blinded by bizarre faith in ID to bother
Because the trait was always there, how else would some bacteria survive. The trait was not added via mutation it is a pre existing trait.
if the trait always existed then the bacteria would have always been resistant to antibiotics...given that we both know they haven't then it can be easily surmised that you are talking rubbish again
Again, you sound ignorant read the science and god thread, the term god can be used to describe a concept,the universe or even a dimension.
ok...swap the word god for "intelligent designer" and at least show me some proof for his/hers/it's existance...unless you're arguing that it is the universe itself that is the intelligence then in which case show me some evidence for that
I never said it was solid proof, It's speculation but it's still a good theory, I don't see how that's different from "macro evolution taking to long to document" argument you Darwinist are always barking.
no its not a "theory" and to describe it as such merely shows blatent ignorance to what a scientific theory is and how it differs from a hypothesis
macro evolution does take place on a massive time line....you are most likely aware of the analogy that if the earth's existance was 1 day long then human life has existed for less than a second
the only criticism that can be levied against evolution is that we haven't discovered everything yet...we are probably still to discover geological events that changed life on the planet
but there is more and more evidence apprearing every day to support evolution...where as there is not a tiny shred to support either creationism or intelligent design
Yet despite all that,these random mutations that create species cannot be duplicated in a lab, despite the fact artificial selection is better at bringing out variety amongst a species than natural selection and the mutation rate can be increased. No mutation has been documented to create new traits. Let's not forget these mutations are random yet bring out more efficient forms with no purpose yet increase the organisms chances of survival for the purpose of living, how does that make sense.
how many times are you going to miss the simplest of points
yes a mutation is random....but given that many mutations in offspring result in them not being born then those mutated traits aren't likely to survive are they?
but when a mutation results in a trait that gives it an advantage over others of its species then that trait gets passed on
and you're harping about no mutation causing traits is just gibberish..it documented fact...in fact its the dictionary definition of a mutation
Originally posted by jaden101if the trait always existed then the bacteria would have always been resistant to antibiotics...given that we both know they haven't then it can be easily surmised that you are talking rubbish again
Rubbish, have you heard of dominate and recessive traits, you do know some traits can exsit in your genepool without being active.
Originally posted by jaden101
ok...swap the word god for "intelligent designer" and at least show me some proof for his/hers/it's existance...unless you're arguing that it is the universe itself that is the intelligence then in which case show me some evidence for that
The proof is in the creation, the complexity of life is what ID argues to be evidence of an itelligent creator.
Originally posted by jaden101
how many times are you going to miss the simplest of pointsyes a mutation is random....but given that many mutations in offspring result in them not being born then those mutated traits aren't likely to survive are they?
but when a mutation results in a trait that gives it an advantage over others of its species then that trait gets passed on
Again no proof that mutations create traits.
Originally posted by jaden101and you're harping about no mutation causing traits is just gibberish..it documented fact...in fact its the dictionary definition of a mutation
Then you should have no problem, posting something that show a mutation creating a new trait, not a pre exsisting one.
The proof is in the creation, the complexity of life is what ID argues to be evidence of an itelligent debater.
lets not forget that while the complex mathematics that humans defined in equation existed in nature before we made them mathematically complex
in actuallity it is simply the most efficient way of performing a certain function...as i gave examples earlier with tree leaves being spread in in a fibonacci sequence in a tree to achieve maximum sun exposure...to ensure its survival
in which case the only argument you can really put forward for that being designed by intelligence is that the tree had the intelligence to spread its leaves out itself...hell at least you can prove that the tree actually exists...
Again no proof that mutations create traits.
yes...there is...and not matter how mant times you say that there isn't...you're still wrong
Then you should have no problem, posting something that show a mutation creating a new trait, not a pre exsisting one.
i already have...several times...you just lack the ability to understand it
Yes, please.
Let's see some proof of ID and Creationism, Blue Nocturne. Or some proof the facts presented on the sites I gave you are false.
Proof with links, thank you, to articles written by scientists (real scientists, not self-proclaimed scientists.) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
Originally posted by jaden101
lets not forget that while the complex mathematics that humans defined in equation existed in nature before we made them mathematically complexin actuallity it is simply the most efficient way of performing a certain function...as i gave examples earlier with tree leaves being spread in in a fibonacci sequence in a tree to achieve maximum sun exposure...to ensure its survival
in which case the only argument you can really put forward for that being designed by intelligence is that the tree had the intelligence to spread its leaves out itself...hell at least you can prove that the tree actually exists...
And like I said, there are many perspectives of God.
Originally posted by jaden101yes...there is...and not matter how mant times you say that there isn't...you're still wrong
i already have...several times...you just lack the ability to understand it
And you lack the ability to differentiate, your example of bacteria like I said is an example of genetic variation, No new traits were added to the gene pool the ratio of antibiotic bacteria simply changed.
Originally posted by The Omega
Yes, please.
Let's see some proof of ID and Creationism, Blue Nocturne. Or some proof the facts presented on the sites I gave you are false.[/url]
I just gave proof, the complexity in nature advocates intelligence
Originally posted by The Omega
Proof with links, thank you, to articles written by scientists (real scientists, not self-proclaimed scientists.) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
Why does it matter if I post links, so if prof. Whoever says something it's true ?if I'm wrong it can be debunked with simple test.
Originally posted by Blue nocturne
And like I said, there are many perspectives of God.
Where? Who found them? Who defined what is a perspective of God?
Originally posted by Blue nocturne
And you lack the ability to differentiate, your example of bacteria like I said is an example of genetic variation, No new traits were added to the gene pool the ratio of antibiotic bacteria simply changed.
If the bacteria did not have the trait “resistance to antibiotics” before, and then gained it, it – the bacteria – has gained a new trait, namely resistance to antibiotics.
“No new traits were added to the gene-pool, the ratio of antibiotic bacteria simply changed.” How do you KNOW some bacteria had this resistance all along? Which biologist has said so?
AND … come on! Proof of intelligent design.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Blue Nocturne is at it again.How many times have I pointed you in the right direction, to DNA and copying errors and mutations??
Holy shit man. You just ignore anything that may prove you wrong. Just like a creationist...
But you never,ever,ever show me any proof of mutations creating new traits. All I get is "It takes millions of years" How is that evidence.
And like I said, there are many perspectives of God.
yeah there is...but show me some evidence that actually supports any of them
I just gave proof, the complexity in nature advocates intelligence
not it doesn't...especially when the complexity is actually efficiency...which is the whole driving force behind EVOLUTION
i notice you now use terms such as "advocates" and "perspectives" rather than proof
Originally posted by The Omega
Where? Who found them? Who defined what is a perspective of God?If the bacteria did not have the trait “resistance to antibiotics” before, and then gained it, it – the bacteria – has gained a new trait, namely resistance to antibiotics.
“No new traits were added to the gene-pool, the ratio of antibiotic bacteria simply changed.” How do you KNOW some bacteria had this resistance all along? Which biologist has said so?AND … come on! Proof of intelligent design.
biophysicist Lee Spetner states that, and it should be quite obivious no antibiotic kills 100% bacteria the ones that are left over have it.
Originally posted by Blue nocturne
But you never,ever,ever show me any proof of mutations creating new traits. All I get is "It takes millions of years" How is that evidence.
you're not paying attention are you?
there is even investigations into a human trait that has been found in different individuals that is the result of a mutation of a gene
the trait is resistance to the HIV virus
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/1996pres/960926.html
another team of researchers confirms in this week's issue of Science that people who inherit two altered copies of the CKR5 gene avoid HIV infection even after being exposed to the virus many times. The scientists found that the 17 people in the study exposed to HIV-1 who had dual mutations in CKR5 were free of HIV infection, strongly suggesting they have a natural resistance to the virus.
Originally posted by jaden101
you're not paying attention are you?there is even investigations into a human trait that has been found in different individuals that is the result of a mutation of a gene
the trait is resistance to the HIV virus
No you don't understand some traits make people more susceptible to disease, by not having this trait then they become immune.