Originally posted by olympian
Cain apperantly gets more vulnerable to a certain type of attacks, besides TK without the helmet. A helmet that Thor alone has broken off him the same way Nimrod has. And the duo can at least thunderclap him close to make him lose focus the same way.
Anyone possessing at least Colossus' level of strength can remove Juggernaut's helmet. And really, since when can Black Tom make promises that even Cyttorak hasn't guarenteed. Whether mystically sealed or bolted on, the helmet has always been removable.
And even though its an old point, since I think its acknowledged that the handbooks are often inadequate or even flat-out wrong, back in the Hulk's letter pages in the late 90's (issue 419+) the editor said that with the exception of those working on Hulk's own comic, the current opinion around Marvel HQ is that Juggernaut is the 'strongest' super hero (?) because of the limitless power of Cyttorak that he can call upon. FWIW.
Of course, now that he's a hero he's been forsaken by his diety. I currently refuse to acknowledge that Cain is the true Juggernaut especially in light of Nocturne's comment that he almost drowned in a recent Excaliber. I mean, Classic Juggernaut walked from Vietnam to America, underwater for a good portion of the trip.
Sorry, forgot the point of the second paragraph. If a straight up brawl between Herc/Thor and Hulk have gone in Hulk's favor more often then not, then its conceivable that maybe Herc/Thor aren't stronger stronger than Juggernaut.
You haven't seen Juggernaut use this unlimited strength ability before? You haven't seen him focusing his strength? Ah, then you haven't seen the Eighth Day Juggernaut. The strength's always been there and when forced by the overriding command of Cyttorak, he called upon it, much to Thor's dismay.
Originally posted by King KAMBeing far to quick means nothing in a fight like this Kam.
juggernaut does not win this one....jesus, i used to LOVE juggernaut before KMC now i find myself smacking all his fanboys back to reality all the time, thor and hercules are both far too quick, and would simply remove him from battle
"Olympian your wrong, when has Juggernaut not shown to be stronger than Thor? Damn, Thor cant even manage to defeat Juggernaut with his hammer let alone his without it."
Because of his durability= forcefield. Without it and playing only his strenght against Thor he didnt showed to be stronger. Hulk has put him down as well. Having those examples, i dont see how i am flat out wrong. Not all Juggs showings are "8th level lite".
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"The Exemplars if I remember correctly were able to defeat the whole Avengers team, while Juggernaut defeated them all alone. Oh yea during this Juggernaut threw punches that nearly made the earth crumble, and was said to be the most fury ever unleashed on earth."
Every major character has statements like the last one. " strongest avengers ever", " most powerful avenger ever", "strongest one there is " etc.
And Juggernaut also had a loss against the exemplars, did he not? After all he was the one saved by the Avengers, not the other way around. Why is this not adressed to his record against them?
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"Now I may be wrong, but threw out comics the only time I have seen Juggernaut beaten in a fight was with tk. The only time I've seen him damaged was in his fight with X-factor where he was stabbed with a magical knife, even then he healed up immediately."
He has been physically hurt and Nimrod did well against him without TK.
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"Sure we could sit here and try to point out the few times Juggernaut has been put down, but we could also do the same for Thor and Hercules. Let me assure you that if we pointed out every time Thor and Hercules were put down then the list would be a lot longer than Juggernauts."
Obvioulsy. They are not as durable. Even Hulk has been put down more often. But they are all in the same ballpark and there are ways to counter his durability advantage, as the comics showed us. 10/10 its just not going to happen. On the same token the poster who said the duo would win every time, its also exageratting to the max.
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"Full-strengthThor WITH HIS HAMMER could not even come close to defeating Juggernaut. His God-blast does not damage Juggernaut because of his invulnerability."
Are you claiming he can`t be put down in other ways, when we`ve seen that it can be done?
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"And what proof do you have that Juggernaut is not as strong or stronger than the two? It is my belief, based on comic feats, that Juggy can be as strong as he wants to be"
Direct comparation with other top tiers shows us otherwise. He`s not a level above. His figths with Thor dont show it (with the exception of the 8th day bit) and his fights with the Hulk, dont show it either.
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"If a straight up brawl between Herc/Thor and Hulk have gone in Hulk's favor more often then not"
Hulk never fought the two at the same time. Herc never lost a straight brawl against him and the worst showing Thor ever had against Hulk, wasent a straight lost either.
And the one where he was ko, he ko the Hulk before. So i can surely say, the record they all have in relation with each other its good.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Sigh.Full-strengthThor WITH HIS HAMMER could not even come close to defeating Juggernaut. His God-blast does not damage Juggernaut because of his invulnerability.
And what proof do you have that Juggernaut is not as strong or stronger than the two? It is my belief, based on comic feats, that Juggy can be as strong as he wants to be.
I never said he was unbeatable. Just unbeatable by physical means. Especially the ones that Thor and Hercules possess.
Juggernaut's force-field would prevent a hammerless Thor and Hercules from hurting him.
However, if the force-field can be negated, either one alone would beat him down. Thor was one punch away from putting the Juggernaut down for the count when the hammer returned. Juggernaut is strong enough to hurt Thor or Hercules but he is nowhere near them in terms of raw strength.
People tend to confuse Juggernaut's invulnerability with strength. That he discovered a few new tricks the power of cyttorak has (such as crossing dimensions) doesnt mean he is particularly strong.
Originally posted by olympian
"Olympian your wrong, when has Juggernaut not shown to be stronger than Thor? Damn, Thor cant even manage to defeat Juggernaut with his hammer let alone his without it."Because of his durability= forcefield. Without it and playing only his strenght against Thor he didnt showed to be stronger. Hulk has put him down as well. Having those examples, i dont see how i am flat out wrong. Not all Juggs showings are "8th level lite".
- - -
"The Exemplars if I remember correctly were able to defeat the whole Avengers team, while Juggernaut defeated them all alone. Oh yea during this Juggernaut threw punches that nearly made the earth crumble, and was said to be the most fury ever unleashed on earth."
Every major character has statements like the last one. " strongest avengers ever", " most powerful avenger ever", "strongest one there is " etc.
And Juggernaut also had a loss against the exemplars, did he not? After all he was the one saved by the Avengers, not the other way around. Why is this not adressed to his record against them?
- - -
"Now I may be wrong, but threw out comics the only time I have seen Juggernaut beaten in a fight was with tk. The only time I've seen him damaged was in his fight with X-factor where he was stabbed with a magical knife, even then he healed up immediately."
He has been physically hurt and Nimrod did well against him without TK.
- - -
"Sure we could sit here and try to point out the few times Juggernaut has been put down, but we could also do the same for Thor and Hercules. Let me assure you that if we pointed out every time Thor and Hercules were put down then the list would be a lot longer than Juggernauts."
Obvioulsy. They are not as durable. Even Hulk has been put down more often. But they are all in the same ballpark and there are ways to counter his durability advantage, as the comics showed us. 10/10 its just not going to happen. On the same token the poster who said the duo would win every time, its also exageratting to the max.
- - -
"Full-strengthThor WITH HIS HAMMER could not even come close to defeating Juggernaut. His God-blast does not damage Juggernaut because of his invulnerability."
Are you claiming he can`t be put down in other ways, when we`ve seen that it can be done?
- - -
"And what proof do you have that Juggernaut is not as strong or stronger than the two? It is my belief, based on comic feats, that Juggy can be as strong as he wants to be"
Direct comparation with other top tiers shows us otherwise. He`s not a level above. His figths with Thor dont show it (with the exception of the 8th day bit) and his fights with the Hulk, dont show it either.
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"If a straight up brawl between Herc/Thor and Hulk have gone in Hulk's favor more often then not"
Hulk never fought the two at the same time. Herc never lost a straight brawl against him and the worst showing Thor ever had against Hulk, wasent a straight lost either.
And the one where he was ko, he ko the Hulk before. So i can surely say, the record they all have in relation with each other its good.
When Thor decided to he killed Hulk with his bare hands. He has also killed Hulk and Thing with one arm after he lost his inhibitions about killing mortals.
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
what are you talking abou? t he is far above thor and hercules
No. He has some special powers from Cyttorak such as the force-field, the abiltity to cross dimensions, etc.., but despite the strength boost he received he has never been shown to over power or even match hulk, thor, or hercules with raw strength. He certainly cannot match the power of characters that Thor has defeated such as Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Drax with Power Gem, etc...
If mike tyson had his arms and legs tied so that he couldnt hit or kick me (and his mouth taped so he couldn't bite me) I could beat the crap out of him. This doesnt mean I am stronger than Mike Tyson.
"When Thor decided to he killed Hulk with his bare hands. He has also killed Hulk and Thing with one arm after he lost his inhibitions about killing mortals."
I dont usually use that one because i dont belive its considered in continuity..
Mind you that if we ever do a "what if" kind of tread, Hulk will show up with a bad record against Thor, considering the TG killed him twice in two different stories.
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"what are you talking abou? t he is far above thor and hercules"
So hulk and Thor never hurted or put him down physically? How is he above then.
Enlight me. Especially when the actual Thor beating he gave was notably stated as a powerup in 8th day.
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
yep but he was not ko'd the strange thing that he rarely uses his forcefield to protect him self when he fought thor fr the first time he did not use his force field and was not hurt even by the godforce blast
Rubbish. Without the force-field he would have been utterly fried as Galactus almost was until he escaped. In any case, Thor wasn't even using the God Force at full power. At full power the hammer would fall apart and Thor would have to project it directly from his body. Of course doing so is a pretty slow process as he is first required to say ten different tongue twisters backwards and forwards correctly twice.
Also, the only reason Juggernaut wasn't KOd by Thor in 60 seconds is because the hammer returned before 60 seconds went by and the force field automatically turned back on. But for those 59 seconds that he didnt have his force-field he got his butt thoroughly spanked.
a little trivia:
Juggernaut is based on a misinterpretation of the Indian name Jagannath.
When europeans heard that during a certain Indian festival that an actual gigantic human pulled chariot containing statues of an Indian "Lord Jagannath" and his "consort" sometimes ran over people gathered for the festival under it's huge wheels, they began using the term to describe something as huge and unstoppable.
Originally posted by aliveinboston
Juggernaut's force-field would prevent a hammerless Thor and Hercules from hurting him.However, if the force-field can be negated, either one alone would beat him down. Thor was one punch away from putting the Juggernaut down for the count when the hammer returned. Juggernaut is strong enough to hurt Thor or Hercules but he is nowhere near them in terms of raw strength.
People tend to confuse Juggernaut's invulnerability with strength. That he discovered a few new tricks the power of cyttorak has (such as crossing dimensions) doesnt mean he is particularly strong.
I'm sorry, I must disagree. While Juggernaut does pessess invulnerability, he also possess high class 100 strength. I really don't know how else to put this. It's been shown countless times.
Also, even without his forcefield, Juggy is nearly impervious to almost any form of physical attack. The forcefield just acts as an extra barrier between him and outside attack.
If throwing Juggy into space, or just removing him from the battle field is considered "winning" a fight (I dont see that as a victory), then I guess Hercules and Thor would win. But in a pure fight hand to hand, Thor and hercules would be crying to Odin and Zeus after their arses got stomped by Juggernaut. To be honest, there are people who can mess up Juggernaut pretty good, but not these two.
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
If throwing Juggy into space, or just removing him from the battle field is considered "winning" a fight (I dont see that as a victory), then I guess Hercules and Thor would win. But in a pure fight hand to hand, Thor and hercules would be crying to Odin and Zeus after their arses got stomped by Juggernaut. To be honest, there are people who can mess up Juggernaut pretty good, but not these two.
Except thor has already done so quite easily. Without Juggernaut's force field the contest was extremely one-sided. Juggernaut was one punch away from being put away by thor in under 60 seconds when he was rescued by the return of his force-field.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Also, even without his forcefield, Juggy is nearly impervious to almost any form of physical attack. The forcefield just acts as an extra barrier between him and outside attack.
No he is not. Without his force-field Juggernaut was utterly dominated by a non-berserk non-warrior madness non-uninhibited-about-killing-mortals Thor.