Vader + Old Ben vs Dooku.

I remember him losing potential, but never explicitly power.

And even if he did lose power at Mustafar, whether he regained that power or not during the 20 years of darkness is in question.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
I remember him losing potential, but never explicitly power.

Suit Vader has lot more experience, but whiny Anakin has way more power. That's pretty much what Lucas was staying.

"Vader's a shell of his former self." - GL
"After he became injured Vader was never again as strong as the Emperor." - GL

Some quote about the PT duelists being superior to the OT duelists.

How is it logic that OT Vader is stronger. ROTS Vader is over twice as fast, nearly as strong physically, wouldn't let ESB Luke cut his arm, even my accident, and would NEVER lose to ROTJ Luke, wouldn't get killed from 7 seconds of lightning, god can this list never end? And Janus, Faunus and Illustrious are even better at saying why than I am.

"Vader's a shell of his former self." - GL

But of course. He was in a metal shell!

"After he became injured Vader was never again as strong as the Emperor." - GL

He was before? News to me.

Vader became much experienced and physically stronger once he became suited but he also became significantly slower. Dookus attacks are extremely quick and precise and would be able to strike Vader before Vader can get his guard up. I dont think that Ben stands a chance at all. He got wtf pwned twice already by Dooku, while he was young and fit. He is now a (physically) weak old man who has also slowed significantly. Overall Dooku would wtf pwn them both.

When Yoda said
"Strong is Vader! mind what you have learned, save you it can!"

he didnt mean:

"Away is Vader from his former strength! Do as I said, rape him you will!"

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Really? Vader has 23 years of Sith training... which is much more than Dooku's 13. Dooku does have a greater knowledge of the force, but as far as the Dark Side is concerned, I'm sure Vader knows more.

WTF is this shit?

Dooku is something like 82-83 as of ROTS. That's 13 years of Sith training, the rest before that jedi training (Since childhood), including mastery of Makashi. And really, after 23 years, Vader wasn't powerful enough to stand up to a barely trained boy? Granted, I think that fight is where Vader deliberately took a dive, but damn... even in ESB if he was -that- powerful all he had to do is force choke Luke. But he couldn't.

"If he could be turned to the darkside, he would be an valuable ally"
"Yes, yes. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, master"

Vader was there to convert, not to terminate.

He was before? News to me.

Originally posted by Sesse
"If he could be turned to the darkside, he would be an valuable ally"
"Yes, yes. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, master"

Vader was there to convert, not to terminate.

His goal was to turn him, but he wanted to give him to the Emperor, thus why he tried to seal him in Carbonite. So he could choke Luke until Luke lost consciousness (due to lack of air) and then he could give him to the Emperor and the Emperor would try to seduce Luke, and would probably succeed, as this is ESB Luke and not ROTJ Luke, who nearly turned.

WTF is this shit?

Dooku is something like 82-83 as of ROTS. That's 13 years of Sith training, the rest before that jedi training (Since childhood), including mastery of Makashi. And really, after 23 years, Vader wasn't powerful enough to stand up to a barely trained boy? Granted, I think that fight is where Vader deliberately took a dive, but damn... even in ESB if he was -that- powerful all he had to do is force choke Luke. But he couldn't.

Notice how I say "(Dooku) has a greater knowledge of the force".

But Vader spent longer studying the Dark Side. Longer than any movie sith actually besides Palpy himself.

Yeah, but what are the results of that study? I don't see anything resulting from it.

I wouldn't say he exerted himself against Luke. He was testing the boy, then he took a big hard dive.

Yes, I agree. However, while we can throw around numbers like 23>13... we can't substantiate just how much knowledge Vader acquired and mastered versus Dooku's. It's not like Dooku could use lightning and Vader could use Force storm or something. It's not that easy to determine.

Likewise, Dooku's philosophy on the force even as a jedi was on drawing on both sides of it equally. (Something that didn't endear him to the council for sure). It's not like he's totally unaware of the dark side at all. If anything, he had a lot of knowledge going in. He's probably forgotten more knowledge of the force before becoming a sith than Anakin had as a jedi.

Yep. He's been in practice for 70 more years.

I have a question why is everyone saying Vader is so slow when The Crimson Empire completely disproves that. And didn't everyone around here used to say old Ben was stronger than his ROTS version? Oh yes and in AOTC when Dooku throws that hollow pipe or whatever it was he shows quite a bit of exertion while Vader in ESB is chucking much heavier machinery around like toys!

Originally posted by The Creator
I have a question why is everyone saying Vader is so slow when The Crimson Empire completely disproves that.

It does, eh? So Crimson Empire's take on how fast Vader is suddenly overrules how fast he is in the movies? Let me rephrase that- is Vader going to be fast enough to defeat Dooku in saber combat considering he doesn't have full range of motion with his limbs, his fighting style has changed because his limbs are artificial and much longer (Try fighting in platform shoes for instance... you'd have to learn everything all over again), he's lost a good deal of his force potential, and he hasn't worked with Obi-Wan in over twenty years?

And didn't everyone around here used to say old Ben was stronger than his ROTS version?

There was speculation, but it's really not likely to be the case overall; yes, Kenobi likely has a better understanding of the Force, but there's nothing to imply he can overpower Dooku who is still far older and wiser. I mean, what is he gonna do? Attempt a mind trick and then become a ghost?

Oh yes and in AOTC when Dooku throws that hollow pipe or whatever it was he shows quite a bit of exertion while Vader in ESB is chucking much heavier machinery around like toys!

You need to stop drinking. Dooku ripped chunks out of a ceiling with relative ease. Hell, while he was saber locked with Yoda he casually reached out and dropped a bus-sized crane on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Vader in ESB is throwing little monitors and pieces of equipment. Hell, Revan can do that after three weeks training in KotOR.

Sorry guys, but i think vader and ben takes it I'm a big fan of vader but doesnt always wins battles. Vader yes is slow but can still be hard to kill and if it were to be a rematch against luke Vader would own him. Well isnt vader the chosen one? He is said that he can wipe out ALL the sith during his time, wouldn't that include dooku? Besides Vader can choke his enemies while using his saber to battle also can't he do that on dooku? Don't flmae me but it's just what I believe Ben on the other hand....

Sidious in rots did say soon he will a far more younger and powerful apprentice... than dooku

And very likely he was indicating potential power, since Anakin has more midi-chlorians than anyone in the Jedi Order as of TPM.

But otherwise, I'll just ignore your post.

Regardless: The EU's shown Vader is an exceptionally inventive, agile and fast enemy, even after the prequels, and Obi-wan wasn't spending the time just chilling. The majority of his days were spent training, looking after Luke from afar or tapping into the force qith Qui-Gon's help. We've seen Vader kill dark force users and he lost potential, but e rose in power